Let's Play Every Final Fantasy Game In Order Of Release [Now Finished: Final Fantasy Tactics]

So, this is why the Black Materia exists.

Do you remember what Materia are? What magic actually is? That's right, they're manifestations of the Planet's memories. A memory of fire becomes real to burn your enemies, memories of heroes of yore spring back to life to fight in your place, memories of skills held by warriors can be reborn in your own hands, hell the Enemy Skill Materia literally remembers the abilities of the monsters you encounter. Green, red, yellow, even purple and blue - it's all just memory, manifested and crystallized in places where the Lifestream draws near to the surface, memories so powerful that tiny mortals can recreate them by just holding one of these funny little rocks.

So, then, what happens when the Planet has an extremely traumatic memory of a meteor impacting it and causing a grievous wound that, even after 2000 years, has not healed? It manifests as a pitch-black Materia. And the Cetra...what the fuck are they going to do with it? What even can they do? Destroying it won't do any good, it'd just return back to the planet and resurface elsewhere, where anyone can get it and unwittingly blow up the planet trying to use it in ignorance. They don't have the power to destroy the memories of the Planet when the best they can do is just talk to it.

So they do the best thing they can. They seal it away in a safe location...but since this would have been either during or shortly after the whole JENOVA shitshow, they understand that they might need it. If JENOVA returns, blowing a second hole in the planet might be a better result than letting that monster from outer space devour the world. Thus, they leave a contingency - if things are desperate, desperate enough that someone will willingly sacrifice themselves to unseal the Black Materia, then it will still be possible to use that dread power against the enemies of the Planet.

And then that all backfired, and now JENOVA has the Black Materia. Whoops.
Sephiroth: I will never be just a memory.

Because he's trauma. Think of him and all the pain and destruction he caused comes with him. And the emotional devastation never goes away, in a sense-oh sure you can move past it, let time dull the pain…
But the scars persist…
Or do they.
We will find out.
 
So this WEAPON lore is how I headcanon the existence of Summons in 7. Namely, the description of the purpose of the WEAPONs is to protect the planet, but will do so destructively, causing damage to the whole.

Just like the human immune system.

My theory is Summons are part of the immune system too. But, where WEAPONs are indiscriminate, Summons are crafted from the Planets memories to be targetted. To be wielded by the Cetra.

I'm sure someone with the biology knowledge could point to specific parts of the immune system for the metaphor too.
So… He's been looking for them for two years, but he already knew about their 20-days old daughter? What? Yeah, this doesn't really quite fit for me, but it doesn't matter much.
Alternatively, Hojo is such an asshole he assumes Gast is operating on a similar wavelength to him.

What do you do if your research specimen is limited in number?

Get more.
Or I'm wrong about all of this. But it's a compelling idea, don't you think?
It's definitely compelling. The question of who is in control is something that's been a contentious question in the fandom for a long time.

The official answer is Sephiroth is the one in charge. Jenova attempted to puppet him and instead wound up subservient. That said, I lean more to your interpretation. While Sephiroth is the one in charge, Jenova has successfully warped his mind. The line between the two is blurred, and neither Sephiroth or Jenova are really capable of differentiating where the desires of one begins and the other ends.
 
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Honestly, him being in charge at all doesn't really make all that much sense, save for maybe how he thinks things are working.
I feel he's more the software rn, and the hardware that is his body has, like, a flash drive that's running background programs, that being the Jenova cells. So he can be doing whatever he thinks he's wanting to do, but that background program is still running, still changing the files of his mind.
 
Excellent takes, one and all.
Omicron said:
Hojo, who has not a single fiber of morality, or compassion, or human kindness in his heart, flatly denies her, seeing he needs both of them for his experiment, then turns to address Gast again, because Gast is the only person in this scene that he acknowledges as a person with agency who is worth engaging intellectually with.

This is hilarious. Hojo is standing in the same room as the greatest living repository of historical knowledge on the Planet. Every anthropologist, every archeologist, every sociologist, every planetologist, every expert of magic and materia on the face of Gaea would come to the ass-end of nowhere in the frozen north like pilgrims to kneel at her feet for the chance to have one conversation like Gast was doing.

And Hojo doesn't have one word for her. All his words are reserved for gloating at Gast.

Hojo's best idea is to stare at her under a microscope, to cut her up to study her biology.

It's so. Fucking. Hojo.

Hojo gets access to Nanaki, the scion of this race of immortal guardians and the 'grandson' of Cosmo Canyon's preeminent scholar of planetology? Of course he sticks him in a cage and plans to breed him like cattle; it's what he does. It's all he does.

Fucking. Hojo.
 
Pour one out for the poor overworked translator who was so far gone at this point that he was not capable of recognizing that "Noruzuporu" was an Engrish attempt at transliterating the English words "North Pole" into katakana rather than a fantasy name

This isn't the part where the translation completely flies off the rails, but the trestle is already rickety and there's an ominous sound coming from the wheels...

Completely unrelated to anything but the last post, @Omicron, you might like to read Peter Watts' description of events from the Thing's perspective.

Hell yeah. Peter Watts is great (Please read Echopraxia, it's an amazing First Contact novel), and The Things is amazing. EDIT: I mean Blindsight, Echopraxia is the sequel.


I'm not the type of person that usually gets upset in a personal, moral sense at fictional characters, and especially at villains. But everything about Hojo is so deeply, truly loathsome that it's honestly impressive they managed to write someone that perfectly hateable. And I mean actually hateable; not like an affectionate "love-to-hate" camp sort of way. Sure, part of it is just that it's a realistic, knowable sort of evil and not a magic clown or spooky tree trying to Do The Big Wacky and destroy the world. But everything about the *way* he's evil is realized in such a skin-crawling way.

Sadly not a bunch of blatant Gundam references this time around, but still very cool. Between this and Xenogears I feel like a lot of guys at SE were dosing hard on Mecha in the mid 90's.

Knowing the naming conventions of both this game and her father, she's lucky she's not named after Little Caesar's or Mc Donald's or something. Whataburgaerith.
 
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Because if Ifalna is born of normal biological descent over two thousand years and is still a Cetra with all the capabilities thereof, and humanity aren't, then that means humanity aren't some… weakened descendants of the surviving Cetra of the Jenova era? So where did humanity come from?
Are we sure? The Cetra are pretty clearly human+ at most, there's no discernable origin for humanity, or... really much of anything. Hojo seems to think they're a seperate species, but Hojo is an idiot.
I think it's more likely they were a society, or caste, or at most a subspecies that developed the ability to commune with the planet through natural or 'unnatural' means. Exactly how this ability is passed down... perhaps it's genetic, perhaps it's something more. More likely it's both.

However, Jenova rather totally shattered Cetra society, while at the same time leaving the planet in a... stable condition - thus in one swoop destroying those with the ability to communicate with the planet and the apparent urgency to do so. The survivors reintegrated back into larger society, and whether through genetic dilution, failing to pass on the necessary techniques, or more likely both, the Cetra as a collective disappeared.

Ifalna and Aerith are 'the last Cetra' because they're the last to have abilities, but they're not that genetically/genealogically distinct from normal humans. They're lucky, those who managed to inherit both the necessary inborn talent and knowledge of the Cetra, as opposed to the majority who didn't - because of genetic happenstance, trauma, circumstances, or just disinterest.
Well. 'Lucky'.

Ifalna: "2000 years ago, our ancestors, the Cetra, heard the cries of the Planet. The first ones to discover the Planet's wound were the Cetra at the Knowlespole."
Likewise: This is before Aerith's birth (I'm pretty sure) and Ifalna, speaking to Gast, refers to the Cetra as our ancestors.

There's perhaps an interesting note in 'heard the cries of the planet'. At least in Remake, Barrett talks about 'hearing the planet's cry' all the time. Now I don't think he actually does have this ability (the whole 'initially approving of the Mako reactor' shows this), but I think it demonstrates that it's in the cultural context of humanity. This is regarded as a plausible thing that happens, though made into more of a metaphor than 'literally communicating with the planetmind'.

Though this also brings up another note. Do we know that Ifalna has 'all the capabilities thereof'? Or that others don't have some? Humans in this story seem to have some... very interesting superpowers seemingly spontaneously.

Also pretty sure this confirms Ilfana is not immortal, or it would be 'we', not 'our ancestors'.

Ifalna: "Yes, Professor. The one the Professor mistook for a Cetra… was named Jenova. That is 'the crisis from the sky.'"
This definitely helps explain how Hojo (and Gast!) mistook Jenova for a Cetra. She told them she was! She was able to pretend to be a Cetra well enough to fool the Cetra, why would people in the modern age be able to know any different. Perhaps she didn't directly tell them, but the whole downfall of the Cetra caused enough confusion that someone else made the mistake? Or it was thought of as a... civil war?

Also, that Hojo thought Jenova was a Cetra means he believes there were three Cetra running around: Ifalna, Aerith, and Sephiroth.

As an aside regarding that... watching the Remake, I noted that Aerith's eyes are almost the exact same color of green as Cloud's. Are SOLDIERs perhaps some kind of... Shinra attempt at replicating Cetra abilities? Or at least something tangental to that?
Is some kind of immersion in the mako stream how the Cetra got their abilities in the first place? More 'meditation in site of power' than 'inject magic juice' thematically, but...

(This theorizing is, perhaps, driven by my deep and irrational hatred of Superior Lineages more than any reason.)

Nothing says that Hojo and co had to break down the door the literal second they tracked down Gast and Ifalna. Just as likely that he found them, put them under surveillance for a minute just to scope out the situation, then learned about Aerith. Considering the man's entire scientific ethos boils down to trying to create the new Reese's Peanut Butter Cups by smashing together whatever bullshit he finds lying around, Gast and Ifalna having a child together would've activated his almonds and then some.
Alternatively, perhaps they just... found her during the raid, and Hojo is like 'Bonus Cetra! How thoughtful!'
 
It stares at them emotionlessly, then opens its mouth into a low scream. Then they set it on fire, and it sits and waits to burn.
Alternatively it could be that the thing is SO smart that it uses the failure of that part to cover for it's other parts. One of the more advanced tactics in Among Us is for one imposter to sell out another imposter to build trust among the crew members.
 
So this WEAPON lore is how I headcanon the existence of Summons in 7. Namely, the description of the purpose of the WEAPONs is to protect the planet, but will do so destructively, causing damage to the whole.

Just like the human immune system.

My theory is Summons are part of the immune system too. But, where WEAPONs are indiscriminate, Summons are crafted from the Planets memories to be targetted. To be wielded by the Cetra.

I'm sure someone with the biology knowledge could point to specific parts of the immune system for the metaphor too.
Sure. The WEAPONs are your fever response in your innate immune system; they affect the entire body rather than having a specific target, they're not particularly precise - they'll sometimes even self-target let alone being able to focus on a particular pathogen, they're innate so you always have a certain degree of this response available right away, and they do enough damage that you don't pull them out casually because even if it cures your ailment, the body as a whole is going to feel miserable .

By contrast, Summons might be the adaptive immune system; you don't have them on hand so the body needs to produce them in response to a particular target, they're great for precision work and won't usually do damage to native tissues or even non-pathogenic organisms, they need support from other helpful biological processes rather than being a single independent function, and in the rare cases when you see an autoimmune response, you know you've got a problem.

(Somewhat scientifically simplified for the sake of the metaphor.)
 
I completed the game and have no idea what Wisk means by 'official answer', so I dunno how much of a spoiler that could be. I assumed they were referring to some line in an interview somewhere, which I would cheerfully ignore in favor of Thing-Sephiroth.
 
On another topic, there's been some confusion as to whether FF8 or FFTactics will be next after FF7, with FFTactics being released a little before and often treated as on the same level (at least by fans) as a mainline game
 
Not to be a dick, but I'm pretty sure stuff like that would constitute spoilers. Likewise, @GilliamYaeger, Omi hasn't technically posted the next update, and you've jumped a bit ahead as a result :V
Well
I completed the game and have no idea what Wisk means by 'official answer', so I dunno how much of a spoiler that could be. I assumed they were referring to some line in an interview somewhere, which I would cheerfully ignore in favor of Thing-Sephiroth.
100% this.

When I say official answer, I do mean it was an interview. Or rather, it's apparently in the Ultimania guides.
 
The thing I'm not happy about is having to reload and backtrack :V The fact that they are some of the most important lore scene in the game and are missable only adds insult to injury!

I remember the minor outcry in FFXIV fandom when it turned out talking to the one NPC who happens to be tagging along the party in Shadowbringers, and who is not pointed out as important to talk to in that moment, would reveal immensely important lore information like the nature of Ascian titles.

On the topic of the Planet using its energy to heal the wound caused by Jenova, I'm a little uncertain about how much Mako exploitation actually matters on that scale. There's a vague impression that Shinra using Mako energy is bad not primarily because it sucks out the Lifestream and uses it for electricity, but because it's taking away from the magical resources the Planet could be using to heal the Jenova crater faster.

However, it's been 2000 years since Jenova caused that crater, and Mako exploitation happened within the last generation, so I don't know if the spooky Lifestream lights over the crater even now is because the Mako exploitation isn't that significant, or if the effects haven't percolated through the intervening geography yet.

It does mean Shinra isn't killing the planet, as Avalanche claimed. Jenova is killing the planet, and has been killing the planet for the past two thousand years, and Shinra (even including the Jenova experiments) is just twisting the proverbial knife.
 
There's some interesting exploration of Sephiroth's character in relation to his psyche, his 'relationship' with Jenova, and other spoilery stuffs when he show up in other games.

Opera Omnia seems to give an interesting look into his mind, but at this point it would be too far ahead and too much of a spoiler to talk about it in detail here, so maybe that's something we can revisit later if we get to that point? Not sure what Omi's stance on that game will be.

I also love how much FF7 is drawing from cosmic horror here, particularly stuffs like The Thing and potentially Lovecraftian stuffs. I don't think other FF games has it quite like this? Mostly big cosmic threats rather than the creeping horror in this one.
 
I'd like to differ a bit when it comes to the relevance of Jenova to the whole corporate-dystopia environmental-parable part of the plot, because I think it actually helps illustrate just how inhuman and soulless corporations like Shinra are. Jenova is a potential existential threat; it all but wiped out the Cetra and Shinra knows it. They've known it for at least 20 years. The logical conclusion is that it should have been destroyed or permanently locked away, and most people operating under ethical or moral frameworks would likely have done so.

But Shinra isn't ethical or moral; its sole imperative is the pursuit of profit. So instead of putting Jenova beyond use, they not only weaponized it, they turned it into products. They ran experiments on it with human test subjects. They put it in their employees without their knowledge to make them into better corporate assets.

Jenova might be alien and inimical to life, but I'd argue the real inhuman monster of the piece is still Shinra.
 
As we approach, however, it topples and fades, killed by the beast guarding the cavern, and a boss fight is triggered!

Killed... or transformed into? This wouldn't be the first time we've seen a dualistic enemy that used to be human...

So the Sleeping Forest and the Lunar Harp are the whimsical, fantasy version of an automated border security system and a keycard? Which suggests interesting things about the Ancients: That they both had a sedentary capital city, and that it was a place with restricted access, implicitly even from Ancients, since there wouldn't have been a separate 'humanity' to hide from at that time.

If only some Ancients can be let into the City, that means a class of Ancients who aren't allowed. I wonder what that social distinction was based on.

YES. I HAVE BEEN SITTING ON THIS FOR SO LONG. I HAVE BEEN IN AGONY. WHAT MIGHT BE A REASON FOR A SETTLEMENT TO TRY AND RESTRICT ACCESS TO THOSE WITH VERIFIED IDENTITY? (I mean apart from the usual bigotries. But I'm also intrigued by those Comet and Cometeor materia in that isolated house, the house with a site of presumable communion with the planet in it's basement. Were they trying to figure out a solution while battening down the hatches? Unfortunately, as we can see, it didn't work...)

Ifalna: "I'm all right…"
Ifalna: "When the Cetra… were preparing to part with the land they loved… That's when it appeared!"
Ifalna: "It looked like… our… our dead mothers… and our dead brothers. Showing us the specters of their past."
Gast: "Who is the person that appeared at the North Cave? I haven't any idea."
Ifalna: "That's when the one who injured the Planet… Or the 'crisis from the sky,' as we call it, came."
Ifalna: "It first approached as a friend, deceived them, and then finally… Gave them the virus. The Cetra were attacked by the virus and went mad… transforming into monsters."
Ifalna: "Then, just as it had at the Knowlespole. It approached other Cetra clans… and infected them with… the virus."
Gast: [Puts a hand on her shoulder.] "You don't look well… Let's call it a day."

Ifalna is distressed by recounting these events, and the way she uses 'we' and 'us' it's easy to slip into thinking it's distress at her personally witnessing them, even though intellectually we know she can't have lived through them. But this is oral tradition. This is 2000 years, seventy-two generations, of knowledge of the past that the Cetra shared with each other and passed down to each other as their numbers dwindled to the point the last was in hiding as far from other habitation as she could get.

(And what happened to the Cetra is a worrying negative space. They survived Jenova, even though likely not with ease. I don't think they were a separate species, more like a separate people as BaseDeltaZero suggests, but this sort of thing doesn't usually just happen by itself. What crimes have been committed or tragedies occurred in these 2000 years?)

These are things they thought it was important to know. A message, and a series of messages. Of something that was dangerous and repulsive to them. Of something present in Ifalna's time, as it was in her ancestors. Of a place best left shunned and abandoned.

But also, it's cultural. Communal. Ifalna is not crying because she's remembering these events.

She's crying because she's remembering those who told her about them.
 
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is the one that lets them make more spinoffs, and nothing more than that. I really would just ignore it like I ignore other authors' attempts to turn snakes into people in their word of god delivered years after the publication of the source material.

I gotta say we've kind of completely lost the plot of the initial environmentalist themes and the whole thing around capitalism, industrialism and big corporations. In much the same way that VI transitioned from a pretty sober look at the evils of fascism and industrialism into a killer clown who wants to destroy the world, VII has now fully moved on from the perils of Mako exploitation and the double-edged sword of human prosperity at long-term cost to life itself that Shinra is offering onto an alien parasite whose presence is preventing the Planet from healing and which threatens to take it over by using magic illusions to infect humanity with a monster virus.
So, while this is a perfectly legitimate point of view, I'd like to propose a different interpretation.

One of the biggest hurdles in narratives about ecological collapse is that, well, stopping the forces that are causing the ecological collapse isn't really enough on its own to solve things, is it? The real hurdle is to reverse things, to stop the ecological collapse and get rid of it entirely. However, that's the sort of thing that is very difficult to present as a conflict because usually the answer to "how do we walk back this disaster" is "with years and years of work", which is a nice denouement but does put the emphasis of stories that tackles the issue on the "stop the people worsening the ecological collapse" part of the plan, rather than the much more important "and then FIX things".

So, in the context of a game where the way you fix thing is by slamming a giant sword into their face, the writers did the only thing that could be done to make the point that fixing the disaster is a more important part than just stopping those causing it (while still making it very clear that stopping those causing it is also necessary): they gave the ecological collapse a face so that the players could slam a giant sword into it.

And even with that, I don't think Shinra loses any of their culpability; if they hadn't been strip-mining the Planet for resources, they would not have dug up Jenova from its grave, and if they had not wanted superhuman killers to enforce their domination, they would not have created Jenova's perfect vessel with which it could catalyze the apocalypse. Stopping the giant corporation from abusing the planet is an important first step, but then going on to correct the imbalance their action created so that the world can be healed is a just as important and much harder task.

So... that's my take on how, now that we have this information to put it all in context, the plot of FFVII never actually loses its ecological message, it just gets more metaphorical about it. Of course, this is just my take, and everybody is free to disagree, but I'd like to think it holds some water. What does everybody else thinks, was there any other way the two themes required to send a true ecofriendly message (stop those who damage the environment + help the environment recover from the damage it has sustained) could have been brought together into a single cohesive story?
 
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A few things regarding Omi's recent update (put in spoilers, just in case).
  1. I'd have chalked the elements of super soldiers and viruses in FFVII to having been inspired by Resident Evil (or Biohazard, as it was known in Japan), but turns out the release window between the two isn't that big: Biohazard came out in March, 1996, while FFVII came out in January 1997. By the time Biohazard was completed, FFVII was halfway through production and would have more-or-less had all its concepts already fleshed out.

    And yet I can't help but feel there's quite a kinship between the two - evil megacorps meddling in biology and creating manmade horrors that should never be.
  2. Hojo's evil comes about because it's a raw, human evil. It's ultimately cartoonish in feel, but just thinking about it for a few seconds brings to mind some of the most vile atrocities ever done IRL, such as Dr. Mengele's handiwork at Auschwitz, or the infamous IJN Unit 731 operating in occupied China. And you've met at least one slimy individual willing to throw others under the bus to advance their own career. Sephiroth is right; Hojo is a slimy, detestable waste of skin who made his fortune by stealing the work of his betters and claiming it as his own.
  3. One narrative that pervades FFVII is the idea that the planet itself is a living organism, and that humans are living in symbiosis with it, like gut bacteria inside a human being's intestines. It's a rough analogy that really doesn't work as a one-to-one comparison, but you can see where they're coming from there. They would repeat the idea for their Final Fantasy: Spirits Within movie, as the planet is a living organism being infected by an alien presence but done more jankily there. In FFVII's case, the gut bacteria have grown rampant in an already sickly and weakened body, turning from symbiosis to a more parasitical relationship as they leech the planet dry.

    In this analogy, the WEAPONS would basically be the immune response. Wipe everything out and have a clean start so as to let the planet heal properly. Given the rampancy of humanity to parasitical status, one must wonder how said WEAPONS would react, even if JENOVA were to be completely wiped out.
 
I mean, who said that the Cetra were mortal (in the sense of 'able to die of old age')? Ilfana could have witnessed this all happen personally, and simply be the last one left after all the rest of them were killed by violence or sickness or despair.

Though the interpretation of the Cetra as just... like, a tribe of humans who happened to be a bit more planet-empathetic is an interesting one.
 
Ifalna: "2000 years ago, our ancestors, the Cetra, heard the cries of the Planet. The first ones to discover the Planet's wound were the Cetra at the Knowlespole."

If it helps, the Japanese text for the first part is "わたしたちセトラの祖先". Which got translated into "our ancestors, the Cetra", but I would say would be more accurately translated as "the ancestors of we Cetra".

Ifalna is identifying herself as a member of the Cetra, who are in some manner still extant at the time of that recording, even if it turns out she's literally the only one left of that heritage. Throughout the dialogue in the recordings, Ifalna switches between "わたしたち" and "セトラたち" almost interchangeably; the former is "we"/"us" ("a group including me"), and the latter is "the Cetra" ("Cetra as a group"). This might be more significant than it might seem, because Japanese grammar does not require sentence subjects, so using "we" instead of simply "the Cetra" is a deliberate choice.
 
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