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Kingdom of God: A Quest of Holy Revolution

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[X] The Rose That is all Thorns. On the cruelty that husbands believe is their right, and the vile darkness of abuse.
[X] The Incharity of Man and the Woe of Woman. On the inequalities in wage and respect that pull women to the darkness.
[X] With Acuity. Vashti should cautiously build alliances with those outside of the Ischak, in particular in the capital of Nachivan and the Sanhedron.
[X] Prophecy. Vashti is a prophet, and must conceal herself! [Available because of your Fundament Amalgast the Accelerant].

The last option made me think over it and I think Prophecy is best and I do not think we should do Elevation at all there's already a lot of fires n our nation I do not want to add fuel to a fire that is just starting to go out.
 
The position of the HaKhofshim is clear that Amalgast is not necessarily the final and seal of the Prophets, and that future revelation may come from new sources. At the same time, Vashti has yet to show signs of propagating a greater universal truth to push the world further down the spiral of Truth. Receiving visions and hearing voices are signs, but not prophecy. At least not yet. But it is clearly a sign that God has marked out Vashti to accomplish something greater and the Sect would be remiss to dismiss that simply because it might be inconvenient at the moment to recognize the hand of the Divine.
 
Cetashwayo said:
DVORAH: One cannot receive a vision from God and not be a prophet. If they are having such inspiration and they are not a prophet, it must be from an angel as Guru Ghadi received. This may indeed be what Vashti is receiving.
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Yeah, Abgar's wildly unorthodox belief is that someone can receive divine or holy revelation without that making them a special class of person. As God's creations all people are endowed with divine authority in equal measure, and no one is elevated above another because of some claim to a special connection to God, or so says my disciple. I acknowledge that this may get fruit thrown at him.
 
[X] The Binding Ring of Marriage. On the inviolability which soils the sanctity of marriage, and the prison it may build.
[X] The Double-Toil of the Back-Broke Bima. On the special demands of working women, those who are slaves within the home.


[X] With Acuity. Vashti should cautiously build alliances with those outside of the Ischak, in particular in the capital of Nachivan and the Sanhedron.
[X] Incarnation. Vashti is an incarnation of the original Prophet Vashti! [Available because of your Fundament Transmigration].

I really like both these combos, the first because together it really formally brings all in one spot a lot of the contradictions between orthodox Vasp's own somewhat more expansive ideas of women's spaces in its patriarchal gender segregation and its otherwise redoubled Victorian brainworms about sex and gender. The second because, while something of a wishy-washy compromise of the sheer based-ness of Elevation as the doctrine of like popular prophethood, it builds out our Trinitarianism into a really interesting direction that can start rehabilitating Yuhwanism into an emancipated society under a Pugilist lens and not just an Amalist one- and opens the door for other spirits of Ravs and prophets past to also intercede all like saint-ily in the modern world.

EDIT: and here as an approval vote

[X] Elevation. Vashti is a prophet only insofar as she has been elevated by the people of the Ischak, and as such she is granted greater access to the Spiral of Truth by her elevation! [Available as a syncretic option of Transmigration + Accelerant + Pugilist origin].
 
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[X] Shadows Below the Pedestal. On the falsely laid expectations of the husband and wife, and the burdens they do bring.
[X] The Double-Toil of the Back-Broke Bima. On the special demands of working women, those who are slaves within the home.
[X] With Candor. Vashti should move to build a much larger movement for the peasantry beyond the Ischak, and use her stature to trascend her local origins.
[X] Elevation. Vashti is a prophet only insofar as she has been elevated by the people of the Ischak, and as such she is granted greater access to the Spiral of Truth by her elevation! [Available as a syncretic option of Transmigration + Accelerant + Pugilist origin].

FASTER, my brothers and sisters, we must go FASTER along the spiral of truth, that we may reach god at his seat in heaven in good time!
 
Anyway, we should approach the question of the nature of Vashti with careful deliberation and no preconceptions. The Sect can consult the revelations of God to the Prophet Amalgast and compare them to the dialogue of the angel Simurgh and Guru Pasan Ghadi, so as to gain better perspective on how the divine communicates. It is my preliminary opinion that the most likely explanation is that Vashti is being guided by Simurgh, or another angel, to accomplish the same ends for which Guru Ghadi fought all those centuries ago. If so that would make her a Rav in truth, and not just in rhetoric and metaphor; and the closeness of this witch Tatala resembles that between Guru Ghadi and his follower Guru Myriam, which may hardly be coincidence.

And yet the issue of reincarnation comes up. The Patriarch himself expands the transmigration of souls to those of the companions of Amalgast. There is no reason other such Ravs could not retain a presence in the world, then surely? But if this Vashti were tied to the soul of the Martyr-Prophet Vashti, presumably she is meant to fulfill the purpose that wicked Barbarek prevented. What could that mean in regards to the Deluge? Is she perhaps a prophet after all? Or would the soul of Vashti return only to safeguard the progress that Vaspukaran has made, in the same way as the soul of Amalgast?

In any case it would smother the light that she can bring into the world to advise her to hide away in the Ischak or to pursue a timid course. Pugilism has always stood for the people, and she may yet bring illumination to a countryside still mired in darkness. We should anwer her with candor that the only safety lies in moving forward.
 
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[X] The Rose That is all Thorns. On the cruelty that husbands believe is their right, and the vile darkness of abuse.

While a more structural critique of marriage would probably go farther, I feel the need to attack the most direct expression of patriarchal violence.

[X] The Overbearing fruits of the Flagging Tree. On the overbearing abundance of children, and the men who do not help.

This has some synergy with the above, although it's a difficult choice cause all seem equally important and closely-linked. Childrearing, the burden of domestic work, and wage inequality are all part and parcel of the feminist labor struggle.

[X] With Candor. Vashti should move to build a much larger movement for the peasantry beyond the Ischak, and use her stature to trascend her local origins.

There are absolutely allies in Nachivan - the Reapers never went away - but we're going to be reaching out to other rural Pugilist movements so we can synergize with her efforts here.

[X] Incarnation. Vashti is an incarnation of the original Prophet Vashti! [Available because of your Fundament Transmigration].

I pick this because it is my belief (in character - but maybe also OOC?) that Vashti is communicating with an angel of God...but she hasn't yet made any sort of claim to a new truth or revelation. She's receiving holy guidance but doesn't seem to actually want to challenge orthodoxy. Though, that may change, but at least this gives her room to maneuver there.

EDIT: Vote changed to Incarnation
 
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[X] The Binding Ring of Marriage. On the inviolability which soils the sanctity of marriage, and the prison it may build.
[X] The Double-Toil of the Back-Broke Bima. On the special demands of working women, those who are slaves within the home.


[X] With Acuity. Vashti should cautiously build alliances with those outside of the Ischak, in particular in the capital of Nachivan and the Sanhedron.
[X] Incarnation. Vashti is an incarnation of the original Prophet Vashti! [Available because of your Fundament Transmigration].
 
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[X] The Binding Ring of Marriage. On the inviolability which soils the sanctity of marriage, and the prison it may build.
[X] The Double-Toil of the Back-Broke Bima. On the special demands of working women, those who are slaves within the home.
[X] With Candor. Vashti should move to build a much larger movement for the peasantry beyond the Ischak, and use her stature to transcend her local origins.
[X] Elevation. Vashti is a prophet only insofar as she has been elevated by the people of the Ischak, and as such she is granted greater access to the Spiral of Truth by her elevation! [Available as a syncretic option of Transmigration + Accelerant + Pugilist origin].

Something about Elevation calls to me, as being like a pathway to a prophethood decided by popular support as a divine backing. The People are God and all that
 
ArvisPresley said:
Something about Elevation calls to me, as being like a pathway to a prophethood decided by popular support as a divine backing. The People are God and all that
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This on the other hand is why I do not like this talk of Elevation. It fundamentally misunderstands prophethood as a phenomenon. Direct Revelation comes from God and God alone. The slower process of revelation by discovery and deliberation of the population is a legitimate source of truth, but it is not prophecy. Prophethood must necessarily derive from the connection with the Divine. And to claim that "the People are God" is an insane and outrageous blasphemy that would elevate human beings to the level of God Himself - a sin at the root of the unsurpassed arrogance and cruelty of Barbarek that forced the hands of God to efface in the Deluge.
 
I think Vashti is clearly someone important in this age, she struck the first blow against the Old Order and lit the spark where none existed. And her visions did save her from dying without accomplishing much yet.

But at the same time, as others have pointed out, she hasn't done anything to advance our understanding of the Spiral towards Truth just yet. Perhaps she'll grow into it in the future, but at the same time we also need to be careful about crowning false prophets and obscuring the truths of God.

So for me, its either Ravhood or Incarnation. And I feel like if it was Ravhood it'd be more obvious? Like being a Saint bearing the truth of God is generally pretty easy to see, for God and his Angels arent subtle in their revelations.

But as an Incarnation of the Original Prophet Vashti who never managed to reach her full potential. This I think has potential. Incarnation does many things that we as Pugilists who believe in the Holy Ghost, the Creature and the Chamber want. It takes a step towards breaking the monopoly that the current system of Patriarchs have over Communion with God. But sidesteps any heresy, because its not a new Prophet. Its an old one, who failed, being given another chance by God to help save the world in the age of Deluge and Miracles.

For indeed, if Amalgast's spirit could linger on with the grace of God and his own convictions, why can't the other Prophets as well? Amalgast's centuries-long vigil over the world still marks Him as exceptional. But after centuries, he is tired and weary from carrying the world on his back. Did Patriarch Sans himself not make that clear with his action? His support of the Sanhedron, his relinquishing of Obliteration, and the appointment of his circle of Seven, they all scream out one thing.

The Holy Ghost of Amalgast is spent after 400 years of tirelessly guiding humanity along the spiral of truth. Therefore, would it not make sense for God and his Angels to bring back the other Prophets to aid him in this time of transition where the fate of the world hangs on a knife's edge? And indeed, has Vashti herself not already helped the cause of the Sanhedron, of Freedom, and of the Patriarch? As I said Metamoa's Rebellion and their defeat of the Eagle Standard was the clarion call of the new age. All knew this at the time, for she struck the first blow against the evils of the Old Order when the Patriarch and the Sanhedron still played their games. Her actions were the pebble that began the rockslide.

Who can deny the Hand of God in this affair?

And of course, the Truth of her being the Incarnation of the Prophet Vashti will allow her to draw Witches and the rural regions to the cause of Freedom. What else could be greater?

Revelations can be obscured and delayed by the evils of man, but they can never be extinguished and now God has had Vashti return to send the message.
 
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[X] The Binding Ring of Marriage. On the inviolability which soils the sanctity of marriage, and the prison it may build.
[X] The Double-Toil of the Back-Broke Bima. On the special demands of working women, those who are slaves within the home.
[X] With Acuity. Vashti should cautiously build alliances with those outside of the Ischak, in particular in the capital of Nachivan and the Sanhedron.
[X] Ravhood. Vashti is a Rav, whose righteousness substitutes for study! [Available because of your Fundament Sayings of Guru Myriam].
 
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Also, I believe Incarnation has, and I cannot understate this, absolutely tremendous synergy with our focus on the Liberty and Rights of Women.

No matter what happens, by her deeds so far, Vashti will be remembered as the symbol of the strength and will of women for eons to come. An inspiration to all to both protect their homes and loved ones, but also to break the chains that make them all miserable without fear of shame or timidity.

The problems we have with pushing the Liberty of the Second Gender were all noted to us in the update. The myriads of obligations, labors, pains, and just plain exhausting that chains down women and ruin them. Ruin them before they can even take a step forward. Ruin them so that they can't even have the time to think of the future. Ruin them so that they cannot even truly act to ensure a future for their children and loved ones. Victims of corruption, victims of abusive husbands, victims of circumstances with no control over their own fates.

Who does that remind you of?

The Original Prophet Vashti, who was chained down by her duties and obligations as a subordinate Queen, so much so that she could not shake them off and take up the mantle of her prophethood in truth.
Vashti who was ruined, strangled, by her own abusive monstrous husband before she could bring humanity a step deeper into the Spiral of Truth.
Vashti, whose visions of the Truths of God, the World and Humanity, so that she could not save her children, her loved ones and her followers from the Evils unleashed by Babarak. Who could do nothing as their futures were washed away by the Deluge.
Vashti, who is a Prophet, yet is always remembered as nothing more than a failure, God's less successful Prophet, who was victim to her abusive husband. Always the Victim, never the Prophet.

Vashti, who has returned, risen from the ashes like a Pheonix, Ordained by God! She has shed her chains and taken up arms for the future of Humanity and Good. The Woman who has walked away from her ruins and grown in spite of them. Arisen to hold the Pillars of the World alongside the heroes and worthies of this age once more. Who will not be meek, not be quiet and not be the victim ever again.

And just as Vashti has returned from such a hell, and risen to new heights by the Grace of God and her loved ones, so too can all women. For beaten they might be, but they are not broken, and they will not be Victims.
 
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[X] The Rose That is all Thorns. On the cruelty that husbands believe is their right, and the vile darkness of abuse.
Fighting domestic abuse.
[X] The Double-Toil of the Back-Broke Bima. On the special demands of working women, those who are slaves within the home.
Fighting for the rights of those who are most often the victims.

I think those two have the best synergy, to be frank.

[X] With Acuity. Vashti should cautiously build alliances with those outside of the Ischak, in particular in the capital of Nachivan and the Sanhedron.
[X] Incarnation. Vashti is an incarnation of the original Prophet Vashti! [Available because of your Fundament Transmigration].

The prophet walks amongst us once more! We must do our best to safeguard her from perfidious reaction and orthodoxy alike!
 
Sidenote and to talk OOC.

While every option with Vashti will help with our Doctrine of the Rites of Women. I heavily dislike calling her a new Prophet. Why?

Simple, because it has a strong "new model women" and "the younger, hotter and more energetic third trophy wife" feel to me and it feels gross.

It's like you know. Vashti 1.0 was a failure boo. A victim who did nothing and died being nothing. Now let's talk about Vashti 2.0 which is named the same and who will do everything that first did but better. A heroine of the age and symbol. I don't think I need to elaborate more, it just feels really gross to me and I cant.

I know its not the intention, but you know people in-universe will make that observation. To me, it's one of those situations of "In pushing for this sort of feminism, one is actually degrading other forms of femininity and making them seem lesser, which is not really that empowering for women when you think about it" type of situation in terms of implications.
 
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[X] Shadows Below the Pedestal. On the falsely laid expectations of the husband and wife, and the burdens they do bring.

Getting married is easy, sustaining a marriage is difficult.

Tempering expectations with reality before marriage is essential to prevent domestic friction which inevitably lead to recriminations and tragedy.

[X] The Overbearing fruits of the Flagging Tree. On the overbearing abundance of children, and the men who do not help.

It takes a village to raise a child, let alone many children when the other half does not assist to set proper examples.

[X] With Candor. Vashti should move to build a much larger movement for the peasantry beyond the Ischak, and use her stature to trascend her local origins.

The enemy is trying to kill the message, so do what they hate most and spread it.

[X] Incarnation. Vashti is an incarnation of the original Prophet Vashti! [Available because of your Fundament Transmigration].
 
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Deadly Snark said:
Sidenote and to talk OOC.

While every option with Vashti will help with our Doctrine of the Rites of Women. I heavily dislike calling her a new Prophet. Why?

Simple, because it has a strong "new model women" and "the younger, hotter and more energetic third trophy wife" feel to me and it feels gross.

It's like you know. Vashti 1.0 was a failure boo. A victim who did nothing and died being nothing. Now let's talk about Vashti 2.0 which is named the same and who will do everything that first did but better. A heroine of the age and symbol. I don't think I need to elaborate more, it just feels really gross to me and I cant.

I know its not the intention, but you know people in-universe will make that observation. To me, it's one of those situations of "In pushing for this sort of feminism, one is actually degrading other forms of femininity and making them seem lesser, which is not really that empowering for women when you think about it" type of situation in terms of implications.
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To be clear, this isn't really the image of Vashti. She more or less called for God to destroy Babarak as a punishment for her death so she did a whole lot of something, just not something which was wholly positive. There is definitely a tragic victim reading but the orthodox position has her as effectively a wildly vengeful apocalypse that drowns millions as just punishment. More like the specters at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark than anything just like completely tragic - Vaspukarani literature and culture really dislikes the idea of the 'straight tragedy' and instead usually has 'tragedy followed by bloody and indiscriminate violent revenge' which is meant to be both a morality fable to comfort people and a stern warning to elites to maintain order or else there will be such a hell unleashed it will be as a flood.

When God's Own pictured Vaspukaran being strangled by Sword-Altar back in Enemies of God the implication was not just that this is a woman being strangled by a man but that if sword-altar does they will unleash the flood of vengeance on them and kill everybody.
 
Deadly Snark said:
Yeah okay, I feel better about that. Still think Incarnation is the best, but I do feel a lot better.
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I am definitely sure that at times more patriarchal and submissive readings of Vashti have appeared, and the traditional story of Vashti is full of problematics about abuse and violence and the female vs the male position but yeah it is definitely not a straightforward victim story. Vashti gets her comeuppance and Babarak becomes a civilizational Sodom drowned for its evil.
 
Cetashwayo said:
I am definitely sure that at times more patriarchal and submissive readings of Vashti have appeared, and the traditional story of Vashti is full of problematics about abuse and violence and the female vs the male position but yeah it is definitely not a straightforward victim story. Vashti gets her comeuppance and Babarak becomes a civilizational Sodom drowned for its evil.
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Yeah sounds like its more Medea than eeerrr other greek myths. Lets go with that example yeah.

But yeah I do think this does still play into Incarnation's appeal.

Original Vashti dies and calls downs the deluge to wipe away Evil and set the board clean for Amalgast to build Vasp centuries later.
Reincarnated Vashti amasses an army to defy Evil and fired the opening shots of the Deluge that allowed Patriarch Amalgast the 40th to set the board clean for the age of miracles.

Strong mythological appeal with a nice sense of cyclical pattern to it.
 
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[X] The Binding Ring of Marriage. On the inviolability which soils the sanctity of marriage, and the prison it may build.
[X] The Double-Toil of the Back-Broke Bima. On the special demands of working women, those who are slaves within the home.
[X] With Candor. Vashti should move to build a much larger movement for the peasantry beyond the Ischak, and use her stature to transcend her local origins.
[X] Incarnation. Vashti is an incarnation of the original Prophet Vashti! [Available because of your Fundament Transmigration].
[X] Elevation. Vashti is a prophet only insofar as she has been elevated by the people of the Ischak, and as such she is granted greater access to the Spiral of Truth by her elevation! [Available as a syncretic option of Transmigration + Accelerant + Pugilist origin].
With that clarification i'm more in favor of incarnation now but leaving a vote open for elevation
 
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I'd just like to make a case for Disavowal, or at the very least Elevation. I will never shut up about ending personalism. I don't care how much fruit you throw at me.

Personalism is a plague upon all of Vaspukaran and has been for centuries. The idea that we must and should repose all of our faith in a single individual who possesses a special connection to God and is thus elevated above the common horde is corrosive to the very idea of positive change, let alone the empowerment of the masses. It's like monarchy with extra steps. Continuing to adhere to the false belief that receiving divine revelation puts the recipient above any other person or makes them uniquely suited to lead is what got us the Infallible Patriarchs, and the disaster that was Petrifor. That Santsarran has turned out to be a capable reformer is nothing more than good fortune, and you simply cannot build a sustainable system on getting lucky every so often.

The reign of prophets must be decisively brought to an end, as must the seizure of their ancient authority by modern people. Whether the recipient of a new revelation or the inheritor of a timeless legacy, these individuals do not necessarily embody that which is needed by the people, nor will they necessarily prove responsive to their needs and desires. That they have happened to do so sometimes is no guarantee of future success.

The first step to empowering the masses is necessarily bringing the elites down to their level and making the responsiveness of the leaders of the people to the needs of the people absolutely mandatory. We should not be subject to the whims of a single individual in determining the fate of hundreds of millions. Should that individual prove a tyrant or enabler of the corrupt, we are left powerless and without mandate for their removal. The only possible solution is insurrection against the divine order.

We are not the people of the Second Patriarchate, nor of the First. We have progressed much farther along the Spiral of Truth, and we know that true divinity, true holiness, is reposed within the whole mass of the people, not merely certain sacred individuals. The people must be the sole source of authority, not the individual. Only when all are considered inherently equal will all be free.
 
To deny the existence of Prophets which are ordained by God, is in effect to deny God and have men seek out their own truths outside the Spiral of Truth. Which is a dangerous road to walk on.

I agree with you Brother that having a single person hold all the rights to commune with God is problematic. And this is clearly something God and Amalgast the Patriarch and the Holy Ghost all understand. Hence Santsarran and the Holy Ghost giving up powers to the Sanhedron and the Seven, hence God incarnating the Prophet Vashti once more to share the burden of the Spiral.

It is my belief that God will continue to do so, and that other Prophets and Ravs will incarnate once more, like Amalgast and Vashti. And they shall spread their teachings anew, raising a new Generation of Ravs and Pasan Ghadis who will carry with them the truth of God and his Angels and that share that with the people. Through them, God's plan is to spread the power and knowledge to the people, just as the Angels taught Pasan Ghadi and he in turn begat Pugilism which has survived centuries of oppression till the day it was needed to save the world.

The incarnation of the Old Prophets and Ravs, following Amalgast's example, is God's plan. Our duty is to help God fulfill this plan, and we cannot do so by denying the nature and history of Prophethood. That any man or woman can simply proclaim themselves a new Prophet or simply claim power via a powerbase of guns and swords like the Melik Warlords who tore the World apart, well that almost ended the Patriarchy before it could really begin. I would not have it end the Age of Miracles.
 
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[X] The Rose That is all Thorns. On the cruelty that husbands believe is their right, and the vile darkness of abuse.
[X] The Overbearing fruits of the Flagging Tree. On the overbearing abundance of children, and the men who do not help.
[X] With Candor. Vashti should move to build a much larger movement for the peasantry beyond the Ischak, and use her stature to trascend her local origins.
[X] Ravhood. Vashti is a Rav, whose righteousness substitutes for study! [Available because of your Fundament Sayings of Guru Myriam].
 
((OOC: I did not think Chana was so young! I figured she was more then old enough to have had children or husband, had she so chosen. Out of character because no way would that have been ignorable for this long in this close of quarters, unless I have eyes like a mole and ears like a fish!))

…Hrrm.
Vashti's claims of visions is surprising, and yet, I recall something of of my song, that the ophidian's eyes would be blinded. I had thought that Standard would not be so callous as to assault the holy city with their cannons and siege engines.
Fool though I may be, I wonder perhaps, if Vashti's enlightenment from her visions may be from knowledge being called upon, applied and solutions drawn up within her mind, without her notice, with her only needing to give her approval as to which course to take…
As for the rights of women and how to advance the cause…
A part of me looks at the misfortune Akov has encountered, and wonders if he does not see a mirror to the plight of the second gender.
Here is a man who rose up to fight against the Mare, and when Vaspukaran was found to be so weakened as to be unable to defeat the Mare but instead found itself trounced most soundly…
I see a woman who had pinned her hopes on her husband, and he did not provide. Not with funding so as to sweep away material needs, not with companionship, so that his wife not be lonely, nor his children unable to even know the face of their father. And it would be one thing if all this was born of the consequences of Akov throwing his lot in with us, of joining a sect or creating the doctrine of Extinguishment…
But this was simply in the course of being a Juror! Of signing up for a duty made nesseary by the demands of the natural world God has created!
Akov's family was rent by the abusive neglect of a system who's end was swiftly approaching, but much as it seems as if Akov could have avoided this fate by being more diligent in checking up on his duties as a father, so too, I think could the Originating Principle and Sword-Alter, hated as both may be, have preserved themselves had they not commuted to their course of action…
 
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