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Kingdom of God: A Quest of Holy Revolution

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Anchises said:
Its interesting how you decry ideologies that have a coherent vision as "idealism". Confessionalism is in fact absolutely concerned with material reality and how to break its shackles.

You cling to having a patriarch and yet you write this. It is not ultraradical confessionalism that seeks to keep the shackles in place. Pretending that the current patriarch is merely a bad apple is cowardice. We have seen the historical parade of diastrous patriarchs, we can't rely on god to give us a good patriarch every time. Progress to reaching true paradise on earth requires us to build a truly visionary system that isn't reliant on the character of one man. Truly reaching paradise is only going to work if we unleash the power of all of god's children and use it for true communal governance of the holy community.

Abandoning the creation of a new spire is surrender to eternal mediocrity. Pugilist-confession seeks to reach the righteous goal that high confession pursued without replicating its flawed methods and thus encapsulates perfectly what seeking the path to heaven is all about.
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To clarify and defend my sibling in faith here, I take no particular issue with the theological hypotheses of Confession, and believe that they are as valid as anyone else's vision of God in pursuit of the Spiral of Truth.

I just don't think that a world dictatorship under the purview of a single man who believes himself infallible is something we should be praising, no matter what the philosophy he was trying to impose. Breaking the world's shackles is all well and good, but doing so by forging new ones is unacceptable.
 
[X] That the Flood was treachery by evil to sabotage the justice of God [Pugilist Opinion & Confessor Opinion].
[X] Amalgast is separated in kind, not just degree, from other prophets, and he is the foundation of all that came after [Popular opinion].
[X] Obrogras was the betrayed, and the Amalists are in the right [Amalist Opinion].
[X] High Confession was a nightmare that would have smothered the people and the world [Orthodox & Amalist Opinion].
[X] He is a false shepherd who must not be trusted to lead the people to freedom [Ultraradical Opinion].
[X] The Sanhedron is too easily manipulated and too unsatisfying a tool for liberation [Ultraradical Opinion].

Swapping the Hyperpugilist stance as per Brother Regency's conclusion
 
[X] That the Flood was treachery by evil to sabotage the justice of God [Pugilist Opinion & Confessor Opinion].
[X] Amalgast is separated in kind, not just degree, from other prophets, and he is the foundation of all that came after [Popular opinion].
[X] Yatoni was the betrayed, and the Ravs are in the right [Orthodox, Pugilist & Confessor opinion].
[X] High Confession was a nightmare that would have smothered the people and the world [Orthodox & Amalist Opinion].
[X] He is a misguided creature of his chamber, trapped within his cloister [Radical Opinion].
[X] The Sanhedron, if used correctly, can lead to the freedom of the people [Popular & Radical Opinion]
 
Nerdorama said:
To clarify and defend my sibling in faith here, I take no particular issue with the theological hypotheses of Confession, and believe that they are as valid as anyone else's vision of God in pursuit of the Spiral of Truth.

I just don't think that a world dictatorship under the purview of a single man who believes himself infallible is something we should be praising, no matter what the philosophy he was trying to impose. Breaking the world's shackles is all well and good, but doing so by forging new ones is unacceptable.
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High confession as a goal was noble but they attempted to implement in wicked ways. Why does that mean we have to reject the ideology? Shedding wrong doctrine while retaining the good parts is what the search for truth is all about.

A perfected high confession that comes from the people is a noble goal that we should work towards.
 
"My brothers and sisters in God, I hear many of you speak out against the Patriarch. But I ask you, what has he truly done?

Was it not he who forgave the penitents, thus freeing us, allowing us to form this very sect, and come to this very city, and have this very debate? Has he not said that those who hindered us were to be made penitents themselves? Do we owe him nothing for that? Many of the penitents who crowded into this city bore icons of the Patriarch - shall we not do so as well?

Has the Patriarch not issued the universal call to prayer, by which our voices even now may be heard by the letter composed by Baba Tanda with our aid?

Did he not call the Sanhedron in a gambit to solve the ills that afflict the Kingdom of God? He did so despite the wishes of the Grand Synod and no doubt the Juries as well - our enemies if any truly exist! Even now he threatens the Sanhedron with a debt jubilee, thje very thing that many of the poor and downtrodden cry out for!

Surely the Patriarch's thoughts in this direction are moved by God!

It is true that the Patriarchate is sick, but is that the fault of the Patriarch? Since the dream of High Confessionalism - yes, brothers and sisters, that is another debate, I know, let me finish - since the dream of High Confessionalism was crushed in the temple coup the Patriarch has been hemmed in by wicked and corrupt men. His power is limited, and yet he uses what power he does have for the poor!

We are well to suspect the Sanhedron's potential, for indeed it is full of those who are deafened by the clinking of gold and so hear not the cries of the needy, but for those who are not lost - the Reformers and those who may yet be swayed - of them, there may be more than we guess! And with effort there may be more still! And so I say, turn your anger not against the Patriarch but by those who assail him, who would stop the progress he would make in the Kingdom of God."
 
Anchises said:
High confession as a goal was noble but they attempted to implement in wicked ways. Why does that mean we have to reject the ideology? Shedding wrong doctrine while retaining the good parts is what the search for truth is all about.

A perfected high confession that comes from the people is a noble goal that we should work towards.
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The question was on the subject of High Confession's implementation by the Infallible Patriarch, no? And his vision of a universal patriarchate under his specific doctrine? Not the doctrine in a vacuum.
 
[X] That the Flood was treachery by evil to sabotage the justice of God [Pugilist Opinion & Confessor Opinion].
[X] Amalgast is the greatest step yet taken, but he is not so special and essential that he should be totally above all others [Radical opinion].
[X] Obrogras was the betrayed, and the Amalists are in the right [Amalist Opinion].
[X] High Confession was a nightmare that would have smothered the people and the world [Orthodox & Amalist Opinion].
[X] He is a misguided creature of his chamber, trapped within his cloister [Radical Opinion].
[X] The Sanhedron, if used correctly, can lead to the freedom of the people [Popular & Radical Opinion].

I have not much hope that Patriarch could led to sustainable change that this kingdom need, but I would rather not condemn person who we frankly not know all that much as a false shepherd yet.

As for the Sanhedron, I too, shared in doubt of it's effectiveness for true salvation. Indeed, I would even said that the possibly that a true liberation could come from that assembly is near the line of impossible. But still, I have seen many of what I would have previously proclaim as impossible since we escape from that wretched prison. I would rather hope that another impossible could be pulled now than to face a civil war that destroy our kingdom. And also, Sanhedron is such a cool name that I would feel really sad if our revolution destroy it.

Finally, as for the question of confession, while their concept of war against lie is admirable, I fear that it could easily spiral out of control into a zealous imposition of idea rather than to listen what other follow human have to said, thus preventing human from reuniting God's revelation.
 
[X] That the Flood was treachery by evil to sabotage the justice of God [Pugilist Opinion & Confessor Opinion].
[X] Amalgast is the greatest step yet taken, but he is not so special and essential that he should be totally above all others [Radical opinion].
[X] Both were in the wrong, and their feud divided the faithful [Iconoclast Opinion].
[X] High Confession was a nightmare that would have smothered the people and the world [Orthodox & Amalist Opinion].
[X] He is a false shepherd who must not be trusted to lead the people to freedom [Ultraradical Opinion].
[X] The Sanhedron is too easily manipulated and too unsatisfying a tool for liberation [Ultraradical Opinion].
 
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Sister Shevah is at this point practically vibrating in place.

"So, my Sisters and Brothers, I said I'd fight you over the High Confession stuff, right?" She snaps a finger. "But this is the space for fighting with words, not fists. So let's fight."

Without waiting for anyone to take her up, she makes a sharp gesture: to cut.

"So speaks Opernani Myriam: The first of the five evils is ignorance, and you who support High Confession have been ignorant. Have you read their creed? Pasan Ghadi prescribes wisely that all humanity is of the Material and the Spiritual and that we must balance these two! That our struggle for the souls of our brethren in the Kingdom of God is inseperable, but not the same as, our struggle to improve their livelihoods within the Kingdom of God! That only by uniting these halves in harmonious balance, by all this work in bringing all people together on one level and united as brethren, by all this work to see them purified in spirit and equal in material conditions can performing the final angelform as one bring the promised utopia."

Cracking her knuckles and rolling her shoulders, back still hurting, Sister Chedyanaki Shevah grinds her teeth. "And then the High Confessors come in and spit on Pasan Ghadi's words and try to tell everyone that the Material is sick, and broken, and must be be discarded? That only the high and the mighty know the true way? That It don't matter how or why things got as fucked up as they got in the Kingdom of God? It is insanity! To name the Patriarchs infallible! Infallible! It is a sick joke." Sister Shevah's voice is acidic with anger. "Only God and His Prophets are infallible, and the latter are all dead."

So total is her conviction that you would have better luck arguing that point with the walls of Karogen Academy itself than her. She begins to count point after point on her fingers.

"Firstly, let it be said: The Kingdom of God needs to be able to change, because from here until the Promised Day there's a whole lot of work ahead of us - and it needs to change because of the people, not for the people from the top down. Let it then also be said: They deny that half of what brings the promised age to bear - the improvement of the Material - because they focus solely on opposing the Lie in pursuit of their vision of the truth through Confession. Can you imagine, a century ago, all of the Patriarchate becoming a machine of total war? Restructuring itself in full, under an-" and Shevah makes the most sardonic air-quotes anyone has ever seen here "an :turian:infallible:turian: Patriarchate pursuing war against the whole world under the delusions of High Confession while tearing itself apart on the inside, its high and mighty Juries and Priests and the Patriarch congratulating themselves for their grand visionary glories, ignoring the starvation of farms abandoned by soldiers drafted into armies dying on the march? Do you think that, no matter how disorganized and poorly-run the Patriarchate of today is, how corrupt and evil its leadership of today is, the High Confessors and their total war against the world, ALL OF THE WORLD, would not have drained our Kingdom of God of its blood to the last??"

Breathing heavily, Shevah sits down, her head held in her hands.

"Vote as you will, my brothers and sisters, but I beg of you, consider that High Confession is madness, not Utopia."
 
Alright, I've been convinced to change my vote against High Confession. Still ultraradical tho.

[X] That the Flood was treachery by evil to sabotage the justice of God [Pugilist Opinion & Confessor Opinion].
[X] Amalgast is the greatest step yet taken, but he is not so special and essential that he should be totally above all others [Radical opinion].
[X] Both were in the wrong, and their feud divided the faithful [Iconoclast Opinion].
[X] High Confession was a nightmare that would have smothered the people and the world [Orthodox & Amalist Opinion].
[X] He is a false shepherd who must not be trusted to lead the people to freedom [Ultraradical Opinion].
[X] The Sanhedron is too easily manipulated and too unsatisfying a tool for liberation [Ultraradical Opinion].
 
We can acknowledge that the methods and exact implementation of High Confession were flawed without wholly denying the value of the system it proposed. That the world was not made ready for its realization is obvious, and changes must take place before such a system can be considered again. However, the realization of a rational and universal system is in clear alignment with our desire to triumph over darkness. We mustn't throw out the whole of a righteous concept simply because it was imperfectly realized in the past.
 
etranger01 said:
We can acknowledge that the methods and exact implementation of High Confession were flawed without wholly denying the value of the system it proposed. That the world was not made ready for its realization is obvious, and changes must take place before such a system can be considered again. However, the realization of a rational and universal system is in clear alignment with our desire to triumph over darkness. We mustn't throw out the whole of a righteous concept simply because it was imperfectly realized in the past.
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Yeah, god created humanity and all of us are made from the same cloth. From the highest priest to the lowest mouflon we all share certain rights and traits thats are inherent to our very humanity. Exploring what unites humanity and using it as the basis for rational and just governance surely has to be the quickest way to salvation.

The mistake of historical high confession was attempting to impose this universal system. We are going to implement this system from the bottom up because the people are going to join our struggle of their own volition. Our universal system is going to be an expression of true and holy democracy. We are going to build the spire not with servitude but by exploring the universal love that unites humanity.

Rejecting the idea, not the historic implementation, of high confession is to deny the possibility of salvation itself. Why would the faithful reject the task of building paradise on earth?

edit: Rejecting the idea of high confession is falling prey to the siren song of orthodoxy. The same tyrants we seek to topple are scared of high confession and seek to blind you to its boundless revolutionary potential.
 
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It is very disappointing to see so many Brothers and Sisters uncritically accept the slander our sinful leaders spread about Confessionism.

Us Pugilists-Confessionists have through debate and logical thinking integrated all the good aspects of Confessionism without any of the bad. This is something completely new, yes, which causes many to unthinkingly reject it as they prefer the old routine, nevermind that it wasn't working.

But the people? The people at this moment in history have a potentially inexhaustible enthusiasm for new ideas, new ones not the same old stale ones from centuries ago! Those who can only follow the old routine are utterly incapable of seeing this enthusiasm, they underestimate the people. They are blind and all is dark ahead of them. Something new has appeared and so they immediately disapprove and rush to oppose it.

In the future, they'll inevitably have to admit defeat and do a little self-criticism. But the next time something new appears, they'll go through the same process all over again. This is the pattern of behavior of certain of our Brothers and Sisters in regard to anything and everything new. They'd shackle the present to the past and prevent us from moving forward towards the future!
 
Nerdorama said:
[X] That the Flood was treachery by evil to sabotage the justice of God [Pugilist Opinion & Confessor Opinion].
[X] Amalgast is the greatest step yet taken, but he is not so special and essential that he should be totally above all others [Radical opinion].
[X] Yatoni was the betrayed, and the Ravs are in the right [Orthodox, Pugilist & Confessor opinion].
[X] High Confession was a nightmare that would have smothered the people and the world [Orthodox & Amalist Opinion].
[X] He is a misguided creature of his chamber, trapped within his cloister [Radical Opinion].
[X] The Sanhedron, if used correctly, can lead to the freedom of the people [Popular & Radical Opinion].

Now with actual votes (and a lack of Jacobin memes).
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I will repeat my votes for the edification of those accusing me of anti-Confessionist bias. I believe that should clear up my stance on our brothers and sisters in that sect as a theological whole, as opposed to my particular opinions on the High Confessionist plan of a holy world dictatorship.
 
Nerdorama said:
I will repeat my votes for the edification of those accusing me of anti-Confessionist bias. I believe that should clear up my stance on our brothers and sisters in that sect as a theological whole, as opposed to my particular opinions on the High Confessionist plan of a holy world dictatorship.
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The trope of high confession inevitably being a "holy world dictatorship" is just repeating tired orthodox talking points. The same people that seized power under the justification of preventing tyranny then turned around only to brutally exploit the people they pretended to be protecting.

Rejecting the position of the patriarch should show that we have learned from the mistakes of the past attempts at high confession.

I'm not accusing anyone of being anti-confession. I'm accusing you of not daring to dream about a world where we define and govern ourselves based on what unites us and not what divides us. The people most interested in spreading vile slander about the concept of high confession are most interested in keeping god's people divided to better control and dominate us.
 
DVORAH: You give them one short lecture and they start appending Confessionalist to their names, honestly.
 
"If this is to be a fight with words, then I say: I demand to be heard!

Pasan Ghadi demanded of us to fight the Five Evils - to oppose them with all of our being, in every way and in every time and place. But I ask you now, my brothers and sisters - why? Why oppose evil so, despite the pain and suffering and heartache? Why awaken every morning with our knuckles raw and bloody, ready for another battle? Is it for its own sake? I say NO!

We fight the Five Evils not because we desire the mere absence of evil, but because we desire - no, demand - the presence of good! What is the point of the struggle, friends, if it is not in service of the heavenly kingdom? We must be bold! We must be brave! We must imagine the possibility of the heavenly kingdom to be, or we are no better than rascals and devils, swinging our fists to soothe our tempers!

High Confession failed to build its dream, but it was a dream nonetheless, one worth building! Do not reject the Kingdom of Heaven, my friends! Fight for it with all of the strength you fight against the Five Evils!"
 
Anchises said:
The trope of high confession inevitably being a "holy world dictatorship" is just repeating tired orthodox talking points. The same people that seized power under the justification of preventing tyranny then turned around only to brutally exploit the people they pretended to be protecting.

Rejecting the position of the patriarch should show that we have learned from the mistakes of the past attempts at high confession.

I'm not accusing anyone of being anti-confession. I'm accusing you of not daring to dream about a world where we define and govern ourselves based on what unites us and not what divides us. The people most interested in spreading vile slander about the concept of high confession are most interested in keeping god's people divided to better control and dominate us.
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The people rose up themselves to defy the (rather ironic) attempts at having a single truth imposed upon them by an absolute Patriarch. The fact that this popular resistance was co-opted by a Temple Coup that resulted, utlimately, in our present predicament is the tragedy, not the defeat of the Infallible Patriarchs' aims themselves.
 
Nerdorama said:
The people rose up themselves to defy the (rather ironic) attempts at having a single truth imposed upon them by an absolute Patriarch. The fact that this popular resistance was co-opted by a Temple Coup that resulted, utlimately, in our present predicament is the tragedy, not the defeat of the Infallible Patriarchs' aims themselves.
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Yes but we are not going to impose. You keep repeating that argument without actually adressing that we seek to abolish all positions that could impose such a truth. Instead we seek to create conditions under which universal truth can arise and unite god's people organically.

To me it seems like you reject the evident truth that all humans share certain universal rights and traits. A cynical and bleak idea that is impossible to reconcile with our revolutionary goal of creating paradise on earth.
 
Anchises said:
Yes but we are not going to impose. You keep repeating that argument without actually adressing that we seek to abolish all positions that could impose such a truth. Instead we seek to create conditions under which universal truth can arise and unite god's people organically.

To me it seems like you reject the evident truth that all humans share certain universal rights and traits. A cynical and bleak idea that is impossible to reconcile with our revolutionary goal of creating paradise on earth.
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To be frank with you, I'm not sure what point you're trying to argue here. The point I'm trying to argue is that the imposition of a single truth, that of High Confession, on the world, would indeed have been a nightmare. I am addressing solely the methods here. You're making no argument for those methods, so I'm unclear on where we are even in disagreement.
 
Nerdorama said:
To be frank with you, I'm not sure what point you're trying to argue here. The point I'm trying to argue is that the imposition of a single truth, that of High Confession, on the world, would indeed have been a nightmare. I am addressing solely the methods here. You're making no argument for those methods, so I'm unclear on where we are even in disagreement.
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It seems to me you are rejecting the possibility of a single, universal truth being good at all. Because I don't feel like the vote ties us to thinking historical high confession was flawless. The vote explicitly says high confession was a dream that we might be able to achieve in some other form. So voting against it kinda requires to think that believing into a single universal truth is already bad.

edit: Which is a valid position to have. But it feels kinda reductive to just reject high confession because the infallible patriarchs were authoritarian. Authoritarian rulers can attempt to implement good ideas in a bad way.
 
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Holy Fighters of Pugilism, in this discussion about the high confession I feel as though we have forgotten the singular factual truth God has unveiled to us.

The High Confessionalists and their Infalliable Patriarch, their dreams of an unifying All Truth, they battled the Jurors of Vile Nachivan and were shattered. Their powers scattered to the Four Winds and left the Bankers and Debt Slavers in power.

As Amalgast demonstrated and Pasan Ghadi preached, victory is God's truth.

If High Confession was Just, they would have won against the Evils of Nachivan. But they did not and their ideals were thrown out, not even left as Schismatic penitents exiles like we were.

Good triumphs over evil, that is the truth of God. And yet Nachivan is evil, and the Infallibles lost. What does this tell us? That this is God's truth, they were both unjust, and for the salvation of the world we must seek another path laid before us by the Manifold Creator of All.
 
A man stands. Brother Ysa. Young, bearded, blond, wearing what would have been fine white and red robes ten years ago. He walks slowly and deliberately, pacing with the energy of a man that has grown much too used to having to fight for every scrap of attention he can get.

"Brothers and sisters in salvation, I am not an orator; I was not blessed with the gift of giving grand speeches. But there are things I believe, and must say.

[X] That the Flood was treachery by evil to sabotage the justice of God [Pugilist Opinion & Confessor Opinion].

It is not justice to wipe out an innocent people. Only cruelty. Basest, darkest and most vile; and God does not indulge in it. He never has, and He never will.

[X] Amalgast is separated in kind, not just degree, from other prophets, and he is the foundation of all that came after [Popular opinion].

A man lived, differently from all others, and beatified before all others, and ought by right to be beloved by all who have ears to hear, seated at the right hand.

[X] Yatoni was the betrayed, and the Ravs are in the right [Orthodox, Pugilist & Confessor opinion].

To claim otherwise is to betray all things we ought, by rights, to believe.

[X] High Confession was a nightmare that would have smothered the people and the world [Orthodox & Amalist Opinion].

That to wage war on the material is to wage war on God's own creation, and therefore against God.

[X] He is surely a good man and soul of Amalgast, blocked by evil forces [Popular Opinion].

God would not allow his highest office to be filled by a man not at base worthy of the title.

[X] The Sanhedron, if used correctly, can lead to the freedom of the people [Popular & Radical Opinion].

How else are we to gather, to debate and to speak as one unified spirit, hm?

Thank you very much for your time."
 
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[X] That the Flood was treachery by evil to sabotage the justice of God [Pugilist Opinion & Confessor Opinion]
[X] Amalgast is separated in kind, not just degree, from other prophets, and he is the foundation of all that came after [Popular opinion]
[X] Both were in the wrong, and their feud divided the faithful [Iconoclast Opinion]
[X] High Confession was a nightmare that would have smothered the people and the world [Orthodox & Amalist Opinion]
[X] The Sanhedron, if used correctly, can lead to the freedom of the people [Popular & Radical Opinion]

faith, the night is long, the stars have been out for hours. the coals grow dim, the constellations have changed, and we are all cold and hungry. our heads hurt, and our ears exhausted. this is a vote not of deliberation but exhaustion - and should this debate continue i fear we will have much more in this vein.

god almighty if we have to spend another hour in the cold and the dark for this interminable debate i truly will contemplate resting at the bottom of the riverbed - there at least i will have peace.
 
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