ExNihilo
SPACE!
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- USA
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- He/Him
You are OP'd to this thread, right? Didn't de-op yourself somehow?
In the Shadow of the Old Pueblo-Tucson ISOTed to the Bronze Age
- Thread starter Teen Spirit
- Start date
- Original Antiquity Supernatural
You are OP'd to this thread, right? Didn't de-op yourself somehow?
I've created a tech support thread at Not getting OP alerts from some threads Ongoing
You're breaking character here.
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Not really. I may have been unclear but I was referring to two people there. RL William Walker and the William Walker of Island in the Sea of Time.
Hittite Empire (Part 3)
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- He/Him
Lesser Gains and Greater Threats
Not long after Shaw died, Eli Lyons received a visit from another of her fellow Uptimers. This man however was not interested in conquest, instead hoping she could introduce him to the King and get a job. It took some convincing but eventually Eli agreed to introduce Hugo Ferrant to the Hittite King. Hugo managed to immediately make a good impression on the King, like the Lyons he appealed to the Anti-American sentiment in the royal court, though unlike them he was not an American himself. Ferrant was a Mexican citizen visiting Tucson on the day of the Event. He played to this strongly, talking about how his people were quite familiar with American Imperialism. What captured the Hittite's attention though was not his story, but what he had to offer. He offered to supply the Hittite army with weapons and gave the King two revolvers as a gift along with a steel dagger Ferrant had made himself. The King naturally accepted Ferrant's offer and put him to work (under watch) at Shaw's forge. While the King knew Ferrant alone would not be enough to supply even a third of his army. He hoped the man would prove an important first step in building a modern army
In truth Ferrant had promised far more than he could deliver. While it would be a stretch to call Hugo a scam artist, he had greatly oversold his abilities. The 25 year old man had some experience as both a blacksmith and leather worker, but he had next no knowledge of firearms, particularly how to make him. After a few months he did manage a few basic bronze cannons, but found himself struggling with smaller weapons. He was eventually able to produce crude hand cannons, resembling some of the earliest guns ever invented in Uptimer Europe. Shaw left no books on firearms and such books were incredibly hard to get hold of in general outside of risking a trip to Tucson. To further complicate matters, he didn't know how to properly make gunpowder. He understood the basics, that it needed saltpeter, sulfur, and charcoal, but everything beyond that was a mystery to him. While Shaw had left a decent stockpile of the stuff and he was able to trade for a small amount more, creating more black powder that actually was usable proved elusive. While the Hittites were soon able to field one hundred men with Hugo's hand cannons, they only had enough gunpowder for two dozen shots each. As Hugo quickly realized he bit off more than he could chew he quickly supplemented his work. He and his apprentices made iron and steel weapons and armor for various nobles, hoping to keep their favor.
Hugo Ferrant would be found dead in his home in 11 AE, discovered by one of his apprentices after he had rushed in to inform him that the Shaw forge was on fire. While the King had other forges constructed and Ferrant's apprentices, this act of sabotage greatly frustrated him. The Hittites feared they had another Shaw conspiracy on their hands. The mood in the Empire grew tense, a number of nobles suspected of disloyalty were hanged as precaution. The King prepared for another coup or a civil war. Ranting to his court that there was a snake hiding in the trees outside his palace.
The King would die barely a year after Ferrant, done in by disease like so many of his subjects. The plague had died down somewhat but it had never gone away completely and in 13 AE it exploded again. Mass graves were dug outside of Halab and other cities. Eli Lyons, never the most popular were the more conservative Hittites drew even more criticism for her methods of handling the plague, particularly as her way of dealing with the dead was considered extremely disrespectful. People blamed her for the plague, accused her of killing the King. Multiple attempts were made on her life, forcing her and her sister to effectively lock themselves within the Royal palace.
The fallen King's brother quickly had himself crowned, renaming himself King Victor. The man had been inspired by a history book given to him by Eli's sister, the history book told of the reunification of a land called Italy under the rule of King Victor Emmanuel II. Victor hoped to one day reunite his empire and return to to Hattusa. He also hoped his more uptime name would encourage Americans to deal with him on more even terms. This unsettled many within the Priesthood. Further inflaming tensions was Victor's efforts to protect the Lyons sisters. Like his brother, Victor saw how valuable the sisters were particularly as Sidrah had just opened an Academy. But unlike his brother, Victor's relationship with the sisters was close, maintaining a close friendship with Eli. It didn't take long for tensions to boil over.
A group of nobles to the southern, rallying around a cousin of Victors, declared Victor's Kingship false and began building an army. Victor expected a quick and decisive war, these expectations were quickly dashed when his spies reported Uptime rifles within the rebel army.
Someone was arming the Nobles.
Avolio's Wars
Stanley Avolio was a rarity in the region, one completely unconnected to the Sanford Expedition. Avolio originally scouted the region at the behest of Globe who were looking to get a lead on claiming the resources of what would have been Syria. When Avolio realized the situation facing the Hitties he hatched a plan. During the chaos caused by the Event, Avolio acquired a great deal of guns and ammo after raiding a number of gun shops and private collections. Unlike many he had been lucky enough to avoid using many of them, leaving him with a considerable stockpile over ten years later. After making contact with some of the local Hittites he along with a few others approached some of the more conversative Nobles and agreed to give them funds, arms, and even Globe's protection if they agreed to give up certain mineral rights. This was a lie, Avolio and those travelling with him had cut ties with Globe by the point and the promises were entirely empty. Some among the rebellious nobles suspected as much but the guns were simply too tempting to pass up.
As the nobles rebelled in the south. Avolio began moving forward with his real plans in the North. As he entered secret negotiations with the Hittite nobles, a number of his friends and family were back in Globe and other coastal or near coastal settlements. Offering men and women riches and power if they agreed to join Avolio's expedition to Syria and fight. Like Sanford and Wilson before him, Avolio dreamed of conquest. His plan was to rally an army and march on Halab, using the distraction the southern rebellions caused to take the capital before King Victor could rally a worthwhile defense. From there he force the Hittites to make him King, disturbing land and titles to his supporters.
Problems beset Avolio from the beginning. He had not been able to gather as much supplies as he had hoped, forcing him and his few dozen strong army to take Alalakh. While the city was unable to mount a strong enough defense to repel the attack, holding the city with such a small force proved problematic. Not helped by Avolio's lackluster ability to control his own forces. While his friends and family were loyal enough, those recruited for this Expedition proved far more wild than Avolio had expected. Several times during his first night in Alalakhm, Avolio had to prevent his forces from looting temples and merchants.
Things came to ahead a week into the expedition when several members confronted Avolio over the issue of his plans for leadership once they conquered Halab. They wanted to divide leadership equally, with being simply the first among equals in a council or senate. Avolio had little interest in such an arrangement and when it became clear he wouldn't budge on the issue. The Dissenting members left. Some leaving the region entirely, others going off to conquer other towns and cities in their own name. Avolio's Expedition would dissolve before it ever reached Halab. While some of those involved would try to get home, most found themselves unable to as others had taken the boats first. With no way home and no real unity left among the larger groups, most of the former expedition struck out on their own in small groups or even as individuals. The Avolio's army became little more than a horde of bandits and marauders, looting and pillaging cities with only a few having the means to even try and take settlements. For most of the former army this provide a short and nasty life, with the Hittites gunning down or executing most of them, Avolio himself dying in 16 AE from an infected wound. But a small number has survived and continues to terrorize the countryside.
The Empire's Current Struggle
For most outside observers, the Avolio wars were the death bell for the Hittite Empire. While King Victor was able to to eventually put down the southern rebellion, the damage to the region was high and the distraction caused by Avolio's expedition left him unable to properly deal with all of the rebellious nobles, leaving the region a hot bed of dissent. And while King Victor was able to deal with most of Avolio's former army, he was unable to stop them from damaging much of the north before he could put them down. And those that remain have forced King Victor to focus most of his armies attention in that region, leaving the Assyrian border woefully undefended. In addition to the physical damage, these wars have also done a lot to strengthen the plague that still infests the empire. As those trained by Eli Lyons are too scared to travel far outside the capital. Between the wars and the plague, the Hittite Economy is devastated, a shell of what the Hittites took from Yamhad. While the army is considerable more advanced than that of the Assyrians, it is also far smaller and the Hittite's ability to produce new guns and even ammo is limited.
Even many within the King's court are beginning to question if the Empire will survive much longer. King Victor is adamant though that the empire will endure, no matter what lies ahead.
/
Hopefully things are working again
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You split the spoils, not dreams. Some people have amazing greed.
Yeah, you're listed as the OP this time in my alerts.
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- Third planet from the star named Sol
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Hope things work out for the Hittites. They aren't exactly good people, but the common folk do not deserve being conquered by the Assyrians or other Uptimers.
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Never underestimate the shortsightedness of people.
Yay!
It's an uncertain thing. They're in a bad shape but they've survived a heck of a lot.
Story: Haynes IV
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October 17th, 20 A.E
Media, Median Kingdom
Palatine David Haynes was sore and tired. He had been sore and tired ever since he left Salatiwara. Over land travel these days, particularly on the eastern fringe, was hard. Oxen pulled wagons didn't make for the most comfortable of rides after all. Didn't help that he was getting old. They were all getting old. Even Sloan, who Haynes still thought of as just a kid, look distinctly older these days.
The two of them stood behind Consul Sophia Maddox. The three of them represented the Consulate at this meeting. Across from them sat Karl Jefferson who had unsurprisingly surrounded himself with some of his favorite wives and husbands. And finally sitting on Maddox's right, their host; King Andrew who was only flanked by his wife. They were all gathered in one of the private dining rooms of Media's royal palace, a room little changed since the Event. Once upon a time every American in this room had been part of Sanford's Expedition, those days were long past and they had all changed in the years since. Maddox was still wearing her armor, with a red cloak covering her left shoulder. Haynes and Sloan both wore similarly red tunics over their clothes. Jefferson wore a Pre-Event collared shirt and blue jeans, both of which showed signs of wear and repairs. King Andrew wore a band thin band of silver on his head as a crown, a purple cloak covering most of his body. Part of Haynes suspected the cloak was an old shower curtain but he didn't give voice to the thought.
Haynes could tell by the shared looks that none of them really liked each other, anyone who had considered Maddox a friend during the days of the Expedition was either dead or Saltiwara. But friendship wasn't needed in this situation.
"The three of us would not be here where it not for the efforts of one man. And yet for each us, each of our countries is held back by that same man." Maddox said
"We all want to deal with Sanford, the problem is all of us want Sanford's land." Jefferson noted "I don't see how you can propose anything that changes anything."
Maddox clinched he chair for a moment "There's more at stake than just Hattusa. None of us can advance our nations without one focused on Hattusa. The New Pueblo can't focus because it has to keep the bulk of it's forces in the east. And I can't move on the Hittites despite their ever growing weakness because the moment I do I'll have Sanford breathing down my neck. Hattusa falls and our countries are all free."
"And I take it you want Hattusa to serve as your Nova Rome?" Jefferson remarked with a smug grin.
"That would be ideal, yes." Maddox shrugged "But we're prepared to trade for it."
Jefferson's eyebrow went up. "And what could you possible offer to make it worth ceding the biggest city in the region without a fight?"
Maddox leaned back in her chair, a smug grin across her weathered face "Simple, I'll give you Tucson."
Andrew and Jefferson both stared at her with confusion and annoyance.
"Well okay, I can't actually give you that." Maddox admitted with faux-sheepishness "But I can give you assurances that the Consulate will not contest your borders or dispute any claims you make on Tucson and the lands surrounding that. Hell we're even help you if you want. Give us the east and you can have the west."
Sophia had been talking about this plan for a while and getting the rest of the Consulate to agree to it to had not been simple, nearly costing her second consulship almost as soon as she won it. But she was able to muster some of that old iron within her and pushed it through
Jefferson looked at her skeptically "You're saying your just giving up the most important city in the world, the city every nation in the region is planning to claim once they have the strength? Why?"
"Because everyone wants it." Maddox retorted it. "That means sooner or later there will be wars over it. Bitter, bloody wars. But we don't need control of Tucson to survive, we just need it's materials, materials easily gained from trade. Why bleed for something the New Pueblo could sell us?"
Jefferson scratched his chin as he considered her words.
"You still haven't explained what I get out of this. You're asking me to commit what little forces I have for what gain?" Andrew questioned.
"Survival." Maddox's voice grew flat "We all know Sanford would never let any of us or our nations survive if he had the upper hand. He sees us all as traitors, he might even be right. But Rome will like Media survive as a protectorate, you're get more land and you'll have protection against the Eastern US."
"That's it?" Andrew sounded rather insulted.
"It's the most the others were even willing to consider. Face it, Media doesn't exactly bring much to the table." Maddox was blunt.
For lack of a better word, King Andrew began to pout.
Maddox rub her head for a moment in frustration.
"Look." She said to those gathered. "We're alive, we survived something most of fellow Tucsonians couldn't. Where still here because we were smart enough to make the right calls in those early days. We even managed to thrive, building decent lives for ourselves while many still are barely scrapping by. Everyone here has their eccentric quirks, but we're not insane, we're not dumb. Sanford needs to be dealt with if our countries are to stand any chance of enduring. If we go after him one at a time he may win, if we fight over the remains we might destroy ourselves. The three of us attack him at once, he'll be forced to fight a war on three fronts. Once he's defeated, The New Pueblo will be able to focus on the Safety Comission, I'll be able to focus on the Hittites and Media here won't have to worry about Trebizond. None of us has the power to win everything we want, but together we can ensure we all at least win."
The room was silent for a moment. Tension filled the air. Sloan's grip drifted near her knife.
Finally Andrew spoke "I suppose it'd be better to have you in Hattusa than Sanford."
Jefferson nodded "I can't make any deals but if you have something in writing and I can make sure the others get it as soon as I arrive back in Zalpo."
"Of course." Maddox replied "I have a treaty proposal back in my room."
It wasn't a firm agreement, not yet. But it was a start.
It's a bit amusing, but Media could actually remain a perpetual ally of Sanford and serve as a trading port. It's almost impossible to launch a large strike against it, and easy to defend.
It would be uterlly hilarious if the 'kingdom that has nothing to offer' turned out to be the crucial linchpin of the entire endevour... and it turns on them.
It would be uterlly hilarious if the 'kingdom that has nothing to offer' turned out to be the crucial linchpin of the entire endevour... and it turns on them.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Of course the question is what could Sanford offer The Median Kingdom that would be better than what they're being offered now? And would Sanford even want to offer anything to the King?
Other than peace, wealth and potential technology? Median is small and insignificant, alone it can never endanger anyone, but its also the gateway to the east. Provided it has a long time of peace and uses its manpower correctly it can easily become a true power in the Black Sea.
Gaining land from Hattusa, which is hard to defend and likely more populous than Median itself is likely to become a resource sink, and paint a target on their back's. I just personally don't think that particular plot of land is that worth the troubles it would bring.
But assailing the kingdom would end up bleeding you needlessly, and ruin its worth, making it pretty much a losing game.
On the other hand, both Sanford and Andrew can continuously benefit from trade with each other. More so that Andrew can buy goods from nations that would not necessarily want to trade with Sanford.
At the end of the day, for Median its an issue of whether they want to exchange a barking dog on the other side of the fence, for a bunch of bears on their front porch.
For Sanford its an issue having that one weird peddler dropping by to exchange some goods, or having an armed and angry slave in his house.
The Fifteenth Dynasty of Egypt (Part 1)
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"When they told me what had become of this land, I collapsed and wept. First at how glorious this Land's legacy would be and how long it would be remembered, then again when I realized how little a role my people played in it."
-Pharaoh Khyan Seuserenre
"On can't help but wonder how different things would have been if Tucson had appeared along the Nile. Far more constricted in our movements for sure, but with immediate access to an organized state and rich, fertile farmlands. America might have of stood a chance here."
- Captain William Norvell
There are few who could be said to have truly benefited from the Event. For the average Tucsonian it meant the loss of almost everything they ever knew, cut off from their old world, forced to flee their own city as a refugee, reduced to a harsh and violent life, often struggling to survive. For the downtimers of Anatolia and Greece, the Event led to brutal conquests and massacres of their people. Entire populations wiped out or forced into virtual slavery by desperate Americans. Even for those few former Tucsonians who had managed to rise to a position of leader still found themselves with a vastly reduced quality of life compared to what they had before the Event. If any faction could be said to have truly benefited from the Event, it was the Fifteenth dynasty of Egypt. As their distance from Tucson allowed them to enjoy some of the technology Tucson had to offer while being spared the worst of the fallout from the Event, but even for Egypt the first two decades after the Event would not be without problems.
Lower Egypt At the Time of the Event
The Event occurred at an unusual point in Egyptian history. The Middle Kingdom was some fifty years dead, Egypt was in the middle of it's Second Intermediate Period, the land divided between two rival dynasties, between Thebian controlled Upper Egypt and Hyksos controlled Lower Egypt. The Hyksos were a Semitic (With some Indo-European and Hurrian elements in their culture) people who had immigrated to Egypt from the western Asia some decades prior to the Event. Overthrowing the pervious dynasty in the middle of a crisis, establishing a capital in Avaris along the Nile Delta, which at the time of the Event was among the largest cities in the world. The Hyksos introduced numerous new technologies to Egypt, such as the chariot and the composite bow. Despite their foreign nature, the Hyksos dynasty did it's best to integrate into Egyptian culture, adopting Egyptian names and connecting their main diety, the Storm god Hadad, to the Egyptian god Set. These efforts were largely in vain, the native Egyptians saw them as foreign occupiers for the most part and the land was divided between two different dynasties, with the Kerma Kingdom attacking both from the South. The ruling Pharaoh at the time of the Event was Khyan, also known as Seuserenre "The one whom Ra has caused to be strong". The first ten years of his reign had largely been focused on improving trade to strengthen the Lower Egyptian economy, he hoped the a stronger economy would appease the unhappy Egyptians within his own Kingdom, allowing him to focus his military efforts on the South. These efforts were beginning to show signs of success, Khyan had trade routes with both the various palace-kingdoms of the Minoans and with the Babylonians. Then came news of the Event.
Americans in the Pharaoh's Court
Khyan heard reports of "Strange lights to the North" within days of the Event but solid news of what had occurred would not reach Avaris for almost half a year, when a trader from Knossos told the store of a strange city appearing in Anatolia, their people ravaging the countryside, wiping out entire cities and plundering the land with weapons that killed at a great distance, some even riding great metal machines that moved on their own power. He then made note that rather curiously, a group of these strange people had made their way to Knossos; simply wishing to trade, showing none of the brutality they had displayed on Anatolia. News about these Americans and the behavior in both the Aegean and Anatolia left Khyan's court divided. Some became terrified, fearing they would soon be facing a invasion from the Sea. Others, such as the Pharaoh himself; were more curious than worried. What little he heard of Tucson fascinated him, buildings made of metal that stretched to meet the Sun-disk Aten's rays. Whoever must built this city must have possessed knowledge and technology far beyond his own. Khyan would have his first encounter with an American some two months later when the Teigen Family came ashore.
Mark Teigen, his wife Dorothy and their two kids had just moved to Tucson three months before the Event. The former fisherman became deeply traumatized by what he saw during those early days, the looting, the entire blocks that were set blaze, the Air Force abandoning the city. Fearing for his life; Teigen did his best to hunker down and wait out the Crisis. After a nearly a year of this it soon became apparent that Mark's plan would not work, they couldn't safely gather enough food to sustain themselves for much longer. If his family were to survive he needed to leave Tucson. But to survive out there they needed friends, people they could trust. Most of their friends were dead and those who survived had left weeks ago. To survive they would have to put their trust in total strangers and after what Mark had seen during the Fall of Tucson, he wasn't sure if he could do that. That's when Dorothy hit upon an idea. Their daughter Abigail had a been a student at the University of Arizona, in the first days after the Event one of her Friends in the Astronomy Department had mentioned the stars had change, their new position in the night sky indicating they were sometime around 1600 BCE. And someone returning to the City had made mention that Tucson was now somewhere in Turkey. And the family owned a fairly decent sized boat for trips to California. While not an expert in history, Dorothy knew enough to realize the Pharaohs of Egypt were a major power at the time. If they could load up their ship up with various books and trinkets and sail to Egypt. Use the books and their own personal knowledge to offer themselves as advisers to the Pharaoh, hopefully securing a pretty comfort position at Court. It was not exactly the most sensible plan but between that, possible starvation at home and former neighbors gone rogue; the family gambled on a voyage to Egypt. They loaded their boat with enough food for the four of them along with every book they thought might be useful to the Egyptians.
Simply getting to the sea proved dangerous, their truck was not meant for the rough conditions surrounding Tucson and their boat was a heavy thing to tow. After a hard week of travel they finally reached the shore. Their they encountered another person, Jared Alston. Jared it seemed had a similar idea to the Teigens, trying to flee after his family had been slaughtered in a revenge killing not far outside of Tucson. But Alston had no real plan, or destination and his small boat seemed unsuited to a long trip. Hesitantly, Mark allowed him to travel with them. tying his boat to their own, The Alaskan Pearl
Using some old navigation charts, the Alaskan Pearl made it to Egypt in only a few days. By the time they arrived they had run out of gas and were forced to rely on Sails. they landed near a small fishing village where they tried, and failed, to communicate with the Locals. The five were soon discovered by local officials and detained. The group and their boats were soon brought Avaris. There the head of the Royal guard interrogated them, or rather tried too. Neither group could understand the other. Thankfully for the Teigens and Alston the Hyksos were a Semitic speaking possible, making their language far easier to pick up than the native Egyptian language. It only took a couple of weeks for a rough working translation to be made, then the Teigens presented their offer. After some convincing they were able to get an audience with the Pharaoh.
Things got off to an awkward start as the Teigens struggled to follow court protocol for an audience with the Pharaoh and their attire alarmed many members of the royal court. Despite a rough introduction, Khyan found himself deeply intrigued by his new guests and what they told him of their city and how it came to be here. Many in the court were skeptical, calling them mad. How could a city travel through time? Some in the court even went so far as to claim they were beasts in the shape of men, determined to bring ruin to the land. But Khyan understood they were human, their motivation for coming here nothing more than greed and a desire for safety. And the knowledge they offered would be immensely valuable. Better construction methods, better farming methods, knowledge of medicine thousands of years in advance. Most compelling was Alston's offer to make weapons for the Pharaoh. Jared admitted his knowledge of blacksmithing was limited, having only taken a few classes in blacksmithing, welding and knife making. But he thought with time and help he should be able to construct at least basic guns. The few guns the Teigens had on them amazed the court, having something even a fraction as powerful as those rifles would radically change the balance of power against Thebes
As much as the technology they promised excited the Pharaoh, the historic knowledge the Uptimers brought proved rather sobering for Khyan. Egypt as an independent Kingdom would exist for over a thousand years longer, under different dynasties. The Hyksos would only last another fifty years and the Egyptians would do everything they could to wipe away all traces of them. His dynasty was such minor footnote in the grand history of Egypt that he only found two references to his people in any of the texts they brought with him. The world they came from focused on those who came before and those who would have followed him. The Hyksos were barely worth remembering. Khyan vowed this would not come to pass in this world, his dynasty would be the greatest Egypt would ever know, and he personally would surpass the likes of Khufu and Ramses II
The Pharaoh agreed to have the the Teigens and Alston serve as royal advisers, with estates in Avaris, on one condition. That someone took a number of his soldiers back to Tucson to have them confirm their stories about it were true. Mark Teigen reluctantly agreed and took the Pearl and three of the Pharaoh's warriors. A month later Mark and two of the warriors returned, one of them had been killed in a robbery attempt not long after entering the city. The warriors were awe struck, speaking hours about the amazing sights they had seen. His curiosity satisfied, Khyan put the the Uptimers to work. The Teigens focused on helping build a work translation so their books could be translated for the court to use while Alston began trying to build a forge. Khyan realized these five people could only offer him a limited advantage, he needed more Uptimers, and secure access to Tucson.
Just as the Pharaoh began planning, News reached Avaris that sent shockwaves through the court. Knossos had fallen to Uptimer invasion.
American Troubles
Rachel Wilson's conquest of Crete and the birth of the Minoan Kingdom caused a great deal of unrest within the Egyptian court. Not only did this mean a disruption in trade it also made many question if the Teigens could be trusted. After all, Wilson had conquered the island with less than a hundred men, it didn't take a lot of these Uptimers to throw a place into utter chaos. What if the Teigens were just the vanguards of a similar invasion. Many in Avaris wanted them expelled from the Kingdom or even killed. But the Pharaoh would hear none of it, they were far too useful. Though he did subtly increase the number of spies he had watching them.
To many native Egyptians this was a betrayal. Foreign conquerors inviting another group of foreign conquerors to help them rule. Riots gripped the city for months. They were eventually put down but the Pharoah's reputation was tarnished.
Eventually Anax Wilson restored trade with Egypt, even increasing it. Though the Pharaoh noticed she was always careful with the Uptimer goods she allowed to reach Egypt.
As the years passed, the Teigens and Alston proved their worth dozens of times over. New mills were built along the Nile, numerous projects were started to control the great river's flooding, new farming techniques were implemented that increased yields dramatically, new foods such as Maize, Tomatoes and Potatoes were introduced (These had to be forced upon many farmers, something the centralized command economy of Egypt made fairly simple), and perhaps most importantly for Khyan; Alston and his Egyptian apprentices had begun to produce cannons. They were big, rather crude and took considerable time to produce, but few in the court could deny their power. Many expected Khyan to begin another push against Thebes but to the surprise of many, he was cautious. He did not want to risk his new weapons so soon, and as much as he had come to value the Teigens and Alston, he did worry that sooner or later another group of Americans would come to his shores, hoping to conquer Egypt like Wilson had conquered Crete. These fears would soon prove founded as a small collection of ships was spotted off the coast of Canaan in early 6 A.E. The Second Wave of American Migration had reached the shores of Egypt.
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The one major thing I see missing is what happened to the Mormons?
While the Mormons are a small portion of the population in Tucson compared to elsewhere in Arizona, at 3% they are still a rather significant number, or approximately 30,000 people. I did see someone else up thread ask about them, but there was no response.
The reason Mormons stick out as being expected to be notable compared to other minority faiths is due to several factors in their doctrine and practices that makes Mormon uniquely suited to success in a survival situation like this.
The first being the obvious that Mormons are instructed to have a 1 year supply of food. This is in addition to large stockpiles of food contained in the Mormon's "Bishop Storehouse" (one of which is located in Tucson). They also tend to have water storage, other emergency supplies, gardens, seeds, and other such resources that would make them relatively well prepared in the face of this scenario. Although not all Mormons are so good about actually having a full 1 year supply, as a community they probably have enough food to supply themselves for at least three months to six months (depending on how generous they are in accepting less devout members back into their fold when faced with this crisis).
Despite this extensive emergency perpetration, most Mormons are not "preppers," though they do have a disproportionate number of them. Unlike other preppers, they are much less likely to try and go it alone, but are very likely to put their resources at the service of their leaders.
The second is their well known organization. Not only do they have members, but that membership is organized with clear lines of authority, significant involvement of the membership in church activities, and most pertinently, each ward (congregation) and stake (diocese) will have an emergency disaster plan, involving contact lists, plans for evacuation and sheltering of families within church buildings, etc. While not designed for the specific circumstance of being transported back in time 3500 years, they do include plans to deal with disruption of utilities, food distributions, etc. There are 8 Mormon stakes in Tuscon and the surrounding suburbs, so they will have plenty of organizational power with backups. Which means that Mormons will be responding to the crisis as a group, rather then smaller collections of families.
A lot of the Mormons will be connected to each other by extended family ties. Additionally, Mormons tend to instinctively respond to crisis by tightening their allegiance to the church organization rather than breaking apart. Even heretic and wayward Mormons know that in a time of disaster that sticking close to the Church is a smart idea. Thus their response to increasing violence wouldn't be to fragment, but to gather together and centralize even more.
Third is the less obvious, and more soft advantages that Mormons would have dealing with the situation. Mormons have a mythology that idolizes pioneers, and admires farmers, which will probably make them more willing to adopt the hard work of farming. Mormons have a history of exodus under duress, what with their exile from Nauvoo leading them to travel across the West to the Salt Lake Valley. Not to mention the historical knowledge of the handcart companies (thus knowledge about how to construct a handcart that can be pulled large distances by human manpower). In fact, several Mormons in the Tucson area have almost certainly participated in re-enactments of the handcart journey from Nauvoo to Salt Lake. They also have doctrines that could more easily accept the Event, as their scriptures contain several references to God being in someway outside of time, of there being multiple universes and worlds, and other such phrases that would make them less prone to sudden doctrinal mutation to justify the event.
So I have a hard time thinking the Mormons would just disappear without a trace. Even if half of them somehow didn't organize (an very unlikely event), and say a third of those died in the fighting and chaos, you'd still have 10,000 Mormons somewhere, working together.
Of course the Mormons do have some doctrines and tendencies that could pull them in different directions due to the Event. On the one hand the Mormons have histories that would pull them towards exodus, they also have histories that would pull them towards entrenchment. Particularly for the Mormons in Tucson, as they have a Temple in the Catalina Foothills, and their doctrine would make it very difficult to create a new temple elsewhere.
Thus I could easily see the Mormons responding to the increasing crisis by eventually falling back around their temple in the Catalina Foothills, prioritizing defending it. Oddly enough, looking at the situation, the Catalina Foothills are probably the most defensible position in Old Tucson, as to the north and east they would have mountains, probably with a shear cliff on the other side, protecting them from any attacks in that direction. To the south, the riverbed would make the most reasonable defensive line, with the Mormons being able to hold the high ground. And to the west would be the dividing line of the interstate freeway. It's probably small enough ground to be held by a few thousand. More importantly... there just isn't anything of particular value to attract attacks from other forces. It's basically the Mormon Temple, suburban homes, a high school, and a few country clubs. The lower density of housing would probably allow for subsistence farming, with large gardens on all the housing lots, and the country clubs converted to things like grain fields. Their height means that they ought to be able to trap rainfall, and probably produce limited power from micro hydro-electric (probably just enough to run the watering systems at the country clubs). It's probably the single most defensible position in the old city, and with nothing significant to attract salvage hunters, so attacking them would be high cost low gain.
Such a group of Mormons would probably become much more exclusive and insular, limiting entry to other Mormons and their family members. With the notable exception of the Jews, as due to their doctrines, the Mormons would likely give shelter to any Jews who needed it from them. They would probably see protecting their temple as their major political goal, and try their best to avoid any entanglements with scavengers or other forces. Since they wouldn't have anything particularly important in their area of control, I could actually see them just being overlooked by most other powers. Also, Mormons tend to put a great deal of emphasis on record keeping, education, and preserving knowledge (just in case you want a more politically conservative oriented group that prioritizes preserving books in contrast to the New Pueblo).
On the other hand I could also see Mormons deciding to evacuate the city in a very organized manner. Constructing handcarts, and preforming extensive preparation. Including sending out advanced forces to plant crops to be harvested by later groups (something they did when travelling from Nauvoo to Salt Lake). Because of their large supply of food, they would not be under the same pressure that the other refugees were, and could prepare more effectively, as well as have far less hostile relations with the natives. In fact, I think such a group would probably lean into the other Mormon traditions of proselytizing and evangelism. Thus focusing on preaching to the natives and assimilating them into their society. Many Mormons speak a second language, and have experience with preaching in a foreign country.
I could even see a division forming with some Mormons deciding to evacuate, and others deciding to stay. As there would not be any superior to the 8 stake presidents to force an agreement, each would be able to make their own decision about what to do. Probably the breakdown would be along the lines of the more suburban Mormons (probably concentrated in the north and the Catalina Foothills) deciding to hunker down and stay, while both the more rural and the more urban stakes preferring to leave. The triggering probably being the loss of the Bishop's Storehouse which is located in southern Tucson (between the Zoo and the Airport), which will probably be lost at some point once people realize that there is a stockpile of food there. It's not in a very defensible location. The urban Mormons (concentrated most likely in the south) would probably be more dependent on that compared to the suburban Mormons.
As to where they would go, well once it becomes clear that they are in ancient Turkey (and they probably have a couple Mormons who served missions in Turkey), I think the most likely goal would be the Ukraine. At least that's what leaps out to me, as the Ukraine plains became the breadbasket of Athens during the Classical period, and likely are currently lowly populated, and yet can likely support a large population and food production once someone shows up with a steel plow. Historically Mormons tend to think in first terms of food production when looking for a place to settle, and second in defensibly.
They also would prefer to be far away from all the troubles, so trying to cross the Black Sea and settling somewhere northward along a river seems like the obvious choice.
Anyways, those are just my thoughts on how the Tucson Mormons would probably react to the Event. Pretty much all this stuff can be found with just a few google searches, in case you want to verify it.
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I don't have a hard time imagining that a population group would disappear in the initial violence that swept through Tucson. More so I wouldn't be surprised if religiously 'intense' people would fall due to infighting over doctrinal differences caused by such an event.
And as you pointed out, they have supplies. Something everyone else wouldn't ,making them prime targets, or forcing them to relocate without the ability to take said supplies with them.
While I have no doubt that some did survive, after witnessing the events of post transition months, whatever hardships faced on the road, and what they were forced to do might have effectively resulted in them taking a similar stance to faith as everyone else.
Except you are missing the major advantage they have over all the other groups fighting in the city. Mormons are organized. Which means they are not going to be multiple groups of 30 or 40 people attacked by gangs. They are going to be a force of several thousand at the minimum. Sure they may have food, but if you have to fight a group that outnumbers you 10 to 1, are you going to do that? Or are you going to go find an easier target?
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- a place
I mean if word got out that the Mormon have a huge stockpile of food and your starving they may be desperate enough to do that 1 in 1000 chance of winning. Sure the Mormons would hold out initially but if they dont move soon they will be attacked more and more.
Also Mormons might gain a bad rap of hoarding all the food of Tuscon. Even though it is not true rumors dont need be. But I do see it possible for the Mormons to survive, beaten, but still alive which is more than you can say to most Tusconites.
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My original idea was Mormons got the short end of the stick as they were both a minority some would attack during the chaos following the event and they're known for having supplies. So they were basically in the same boat as Muslims and Jewish people , surviving but in far fewer numbers and scattered. Admittedly I meant to put that in but it slipped my mind. But you have very good solid points about their organization and doctrine. So I'll cover the fate of the Mormons in general in another religious update but in very broad terms they're major minority in a fair few democratic survivor states.
Not sure about them making their way to the Ukraine as of 20 AE. Would that be a long term plan? Maybe. Problem for that happening in the short term is boats, in the early years the Uptimers were largely dependent on whatever recreational boat someone could drag out of Tucson or Bronze age boats, neither of which are great for transporting large amounts of people. The Minoan Kingdom and the Greek States have a pretty small American-born population, and even their limited populations required repeated ferrying to get them across. I feel like logistically establishing a state that far to the North would only recently have become even somewhat viable. And even then they'd be placing themselves pretty far away from Tucson and all the advantages it has.
I appreciate this post quite a bit, it's given me a lot to think about.
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King Washington
Semi-Depressed Lurker
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- Indiana
You know, I wonder how Christianity as a whole will be effected in the long term given that they've been sent back long before the birth of Christ.
Is salvation now impossible?
Is salvation now impossible?
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- Great Khanate of Scotland
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I doubt anyone but the most fanatic would come to that conclusion. A few might insist that Jesus will still be born into this world, somehow, and they'll "prepare the way" or otherwise anticipate his coming, but I think mainstream Christianity will just go "look from our point of view Jesus already died and rose again, you can't turn back the clock on God's plan, because God is outside of time, THEREFORE-"
You can probably get really noodly and esoteric with this (and people will!) but most people will just point at a Bible and go "it already happened, it says so right here".
Normal people are incredibly flexible when it comes to this sort of thing.
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Trying to argue that the Event is interfering with God's plan tends to get people staring angrily at you in this world. Mainly because the first major person to argue that basically started a suicide cult that burned down a city and killed a nation. And no one wants that to happen again. And the good news is the event and person in question won't appear for over a thousand years.So for a lot of people it's either "It will happen, somehow in some form." or "It already happened and that still counts despite the Event." Or some combo of the two. The Event is something no one's really come to terms with Theologically. Because it's not faith shattering like a Nuclear War might be but it's not exactly faith affirming either. It's arguably proof of the Supernatural but not in a way that makes sense from a religious perspective. But for the most part when people as why it happened the answer the average religious leader gives right now is "I don't know but god will see us through". For some that's not enough (for Example, Arcadia) but for most it's enough.
There's a lot of stuff that will become issues later on, like the fact the two leaders of Catholic Church basically completely broke Apostolic succession by making themselves Bishops. But for right now that's not important to most people because they're still somewhat in a survival mentality and thus the community, comfort, and resources their faith offers are vastly more important. There's fights and disputes for sure but we're not gonna see religious councils and massive theological debates for some decades.
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- Great Khanate of Scotland
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I don't know if I proposed this before, but at some point in the near future the Bishops could simply...fabricate proof of Apostolic succession. I could easily see why they wouldn't, but it's also the easiest solution to that problem, and at some point it'll surely be brought up. Maybe when they're writing the new church records?
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nkd1325
KNIGHT OF ORANGE
- Location
- AT HIS MAJESTY'S SIDE
Fun fact. The previous bishop, or bishop emeritus, of the Diocese of Tucson is still alive. He may have stepped down but it can be argued that he still counts for the apostolic succession in a crisis situation like this. Guy's 80 so it would be relatively easy to claim he was in the city during the event and continued the apostolic succession before dying relatively soon after. Only problem is he was assigned to be apostolic administrator in Santa Fe but it'd be relatively easy to make up a story of him visiting some friends he made in Tucson during his time as Bishop the day of the event.
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Technically speaking believers are free to chose whoever they want for the position if there is no clear leader, and these new elects can gather and elect a new pope, who will in turn confirm their positions.
Though that's catolics, I have no idea how other christian sects would chose to proceed.
Though that's catolics, I have no idea how other christian sects would chose to proceed.