Harry Potter and the Skittering Spouse

And as much as I don't like the canon Dumbledore, the "don't kill" version of him is kind of funny, if you think about it. At the end of Order of the Phoenix, those weren't just light shows he was throwing around at Tom, and I really doubt that he was throwing them knowing that Tom could beat them. I think he'd have been ECSTATIC if something had hit Tom hard enough to blow off a limb or three, or even take out that body. Because then everyone KNOWS he's back, and they know methods of getting him a body back and can fight against that. (I liked one version I saw that had him use up a horcrux every tome someone took him out again.)
 
Jo Rowling wrote him that way because she couldn't/can't fathom anything being worse than death.
Close, but I'd argue that you've inverted Rowling's position on this. It's not that dying is the worst thing possible, it's that killing is the worst thing possible.

In book 7, Rowling lets her protagonists use mind control spells (Obliviate, Imperius) without any qualms or second thoughts, and even lets Harry use the torture curse on a Death Eater in Hogwarts (McGonagall's response: "how gallant"), but under no circumstances does she let any of the main characters ever deliberately set out to kill anyone. Not even Voldemort -- Harry casts 'expelliarmus' and trusts in his roundabout Elder Wand mastery to keep him alive... and is pleasantly surprised when it lets him act like a mirror for Voldemort's own death curse.

Dumbledore is leading an army with the heartfelt conviction that killing is the ultimate moral failing, but that dying is merely the next great adventure. Of course his army looks ineffective.
 
Something to consider as Dumbledore and Taylor are trying to get a feel for each other and to remember with any of Taylor's interactions, very especially hostile ones: How much is she emoting with her human body?

At the point in her career that she was sent here, Taylor mostly, even habitually, shunts most of her emotional response, most of her body language, to her swarm. This throws almost everyone off. If you're aware of it you can pay attention to the swarm, but Tayor's range is hundreds of meters and she mostly keeps them hidden besides.

Alexandria in canon thought she was seeing most of Taylor's emotional response. She was watching Taylor's face and hands, reading the microexpressions, and getting nothing useful. No response; still calm -> push harder -> no response; still calm -> push harder. Failing completely to notice the expression of growing murderous rage, spread out over a half-kilometer radius.

Dumbledore is seeing only as much of Taylor's body language as she chooses to express with her primary body instead of her millions of bug bodies. What is her goal here?
 
Dumbledore is seeing only as much of Taylor's body language as she chooses to express with her primary body instead of her millions of bug bodies. What is her goal here?
Dumbledore isn't going to invade the mind of another like it's a casual thing, but Legilimency for example is how Voldemort always knows if people are lying or telling the truth. If encountering someone with zero body language tells, there is magic for that.
 
Dumbledore isn't going to invade the mind of another like it's a casual thing, but Legilimency for example is how Voldemort always knows if people are lying or telling the truth. If encountering someone with zero body language tells, there is magic for that.
Might want to consider what doing Legilimency might do your mind if you do it on Taylor when she is thoroughly distributed into her swarm... How long was Taylor hospitalised when she acquired the ability?

Would getting Mr. Riddle to decide to 'mind read' her be... rather unfortunate for him? Probably bad for his reputation with his followers, too... Also, yes, Snape might break himself trying this.

"What happened to Professor Snape? He's lying on the floor, foaming at the mouth!"

"Give me a moment... Ah! Yes. He's in that beetle over there."
 
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Close, but I'd argue that you've inverted Rowling's position on this. It's not that dying is the worst thing possible, it's that killing is the worst thing possible.
I never specified dying or killing. I said, very specifically: death. And in context of everything else in my post, it takes some serious gymnastics to read only one end of the killing equation rather than both.
 
Have you read Order of The Phoenix
Not recently, no.
From just the quote I used? Dumbledore would probably decide to give Taylor her combat missions.
From just that quote, yeah. I agree. But in context of the rest of what we know of the character, it seems like he's trying to tell Tom that he saw the real horrors of the Wehrmacht and were he to give in to his basest desires, he wouldn't be so humane as to just kill him.

To me, though, it feels pretty out of character from the rest of the books and I have to wonder if that scene was maybe sourced from an editor or added in after talking with a veteran father/grandfather. But again: I haven't actually read the books even remotely recently so maybe I'm just wrong.
 
I tend to believe that magic helps alot not min maxers and verges towards helping the innocent or the more moral.
Taylor isn't normal. She is probably a hardened gangster that verge towards child soldier.
And in the original books, in my opinion, Harry wasn't going to win in training or spell knowledge against Lord Voldermort.
But because of friendship, love and luck and obscure magical effects and interactions that Voldermort could overlook.
 
There's more than one direction you can read "merely taking your life would not satisfy me" in, anyway.

It could fit fine into a Gandalf-like "don't kill him, just take the things he holds dear and put them to your uses while he goes on" move.

Of course, with Voldemort that truely might have trouble landing because Voldemort just might prefer being a unicorn-blood wraith forever while the world moves on without him over death.


...though, also, it's a weird line because Voldemort's death is the only prize in his entire nearly two decade Harry Potter gambit.
 
...though, also, it's a weird line because Voldemort's death is the only prize in his entire nearly two decade Harry Potter gambit.

.... Huh, that is weird. Like, the wizarding world is just as corrupt and incompetent as before, the Death Eaters are still in no-longer-inescapable Azkaban, and blood purity is still a thing judging by Draco and Lucius' opinions in epilogue.

Wow, he really was focused purely on Voldemort, wasn't he?
 
...though, also, it's a weird line because Voldemort's death is the only prize in his entire nearly two decade Harry Potter gambit.
Possibly part of the point is that, by his own actions, Voldemort has to kill himself?

Trouble is, TMR is the 'bogey man', from Book 1, and in general, those have to kill themselves?

I really don't know...

Maybe we want to live in Hermione's, not Harry's, World, where Tom Riddle ends in a glass coffin, sleeping forever, escaping death, and Magic Returns, to the whole World, is studied openly, in Universities, for the Benefit of All?

Downside? Harry Potter is in the next glass coffin, over, while people try and figure-out how to save him. And, the third coffin? Ginny Weasley. Some might still prefer this World, though...
 
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.... Huh, that is weird. Like, the wizarding world is just as corrupt and incompetent as before, the Death Eaters are still in no-longer-inescapable Azkaban, and blood purity is still a thing judging by Draco and Lucius' opinions in epilogue.

Wow, he really was focused purely on Voldemort, wasn't he?
Sure, if you want to pretend that Dumbledore is Harry Potter's Simurgh and everything that ever happens is his plot.

(Don't ask why impulsively committing suicide-by-cursed-jewelry was part of his scheme, his model of Path to Victory works in extra stupid ways I guess.)

As opposed to the "pretty sure Voldemort is coming back so I need Harry to fulfill the prophecy" interpretation which...really covers everything?
 
Sure, if you want to pretend that Dumbledore is Harry Potter's Simurgh and everything that ever happens is his plot.

(Don't ask why impulsively committing suicide-by-cursed-jewelry was part of his scheme, his model of Path to Victory works in extra stupid ways I guess.)

As opposed to the "pretty sure Voldemort is coming back so I need Harry to fulfill the prophecy" interpretation which...really covers everything?
It was the only method he knew would allow him to get Snape to kill him so Snape would get targeted and pass on the knowledge that Harry had to die, thus leading to Dumbledore being in-between when Harry was finally killed. Or the curse wasn't as bad as he made it seem and he was planning for Draco to attack him with anything except the Killing Curse in order to fake his death before removing the curse, but failed due to Draco not wanting to kill him after being stalked all year by Dumbledor's Chosen One.
 
As opposed to the "pretty sure Voldemort is coming back so I need Harry to fulfill the prophecy" interpretation which...really covers everything?
[Sigh]

Do I have to keep quoting the books at people? Rather than some fanon interpretation which was probably made by people who watched ... [Hiss] ... The Films.

Anyway from Half Blood Prince, split into 3 as a bit long:

'No, it doesn't!' said Dumbledore, sounding impatient now. Pointing at Harry with his black, withered hand, he said, 'You are setting too much store by the prophecy!'

'But,' spluttered Harry, 'but you said the prophecy means –'

'If Voldemort had never heard of the prophecy, would it have been fulfilled? Would it have meant anything? Of course not! Do you think every prophecy in the Hall of Prophecy has been fulfilled?'

'But,' said Harry, bewildered, 'but last year, you said one of us would have to kill the other –'
Then comes the wall of text, sorry, but this is how Rowling wrote it:
'Harry, Harry, only because Voldemort made a grave error, and acted on Professor Trelawney's words! If Voldemort had never murdered your father, would he have imparted in you a furious desire for revenge? Of course not! If he had not forced your mother to die for you, would he have given you a magical protection he could not penetrate? Of course not, Harry! Don't you see? Voldemort himself created his worst enemy, just as tyrants everywhere do! Have you any idea how much tyrants fear the people they oppress? All of them realise that, one day, amongst their many victims, there is sure to be one whorises against them and strikes back! Voldemort is no different! Always he was on the lookout for the one who would challenge him. He heard the prophecy and he leapt into action, with the result that he not only handpicked the man most likely to finish him, he handed him uniquely deadly weapons!'

'But –'

'It is essential that you understand this!' said Dumbledore, standing up and striding about the room,his glittering robes swooshing in his wake; Harry had never seen him so agitated. 'By attempting to kill you, Voldemort himself singled out the remarkable person who sits here in front of me, and gave him the tools for the job! It is Voldemort's fault that you were able to see into his thoughts, his ambitions, thatyou even understand the snake-like language in which he gives orders, and yet, Harry, despite your privileged insight into Voldemort's world (which, incidentally, is a gift any Death Eater would kill to have), you have never been seduced by the Dark Arts, never, even for a second, shown the slightest desire to become one of Voldemort's followers!'
Less Wall of Text, but still a bit long too.
'Of course I haven't!' said Harry indignantly. 'He killed my mum and dad!'

'You are protected, in short, by your ability to love!' said Dumbledore loudly. 'The only protectionthat can possibly work against the lure of power like Voldemort's! In spite of all the temptation you haveendured, all the suffering, you remain pure of heart, just as pure as you were at the age of eleven, when you stared into a mirror that reflected your heart's desire, and it showed you only the way to thwart Lord Voldemort, and not immortality or riches. Harry, have you any idea how few wizards could have seen what you saw in that mirror? Voldemort should have known then what he was dealing with, but he did not!'

'But he knows it now. You have flitted into Lord Voldemort's mind without damage to yourself, but he cannot possess you without enduring mortal agony, as he discovered in the Ministry. I do not think he understands why, Harry, but he was in such a hurry to mutilate his own soul, he never paused to understand the incomparable power of a soul that is untarnished and whole.'

'But, sir,' said Harry, making valiant efforts not to sound argumentative, 'it all comes to the samething, doesn't it? I've got to try and kill him, or –'

'Got to?' said Dumbledore. 'Of course you've got to! But not because of the prophecy! Because you,yourself, will never rest until you've tried! We both know it! Imagine, please, just for a moment, thatyou had never heard that prophecy! How would you feel about Voldemort now? Think!'

In summary, prophecy is self fufilling for the most part in The Harry Potter Universe. And Dumbledore understands that Harry, after dealing with all the shit Voldemort has put him wants to kill the motherfucker himself.

This also sets up Dumbledore's, "Thread the eye of the needle, while wearing oven gloves," plan of hardness to have Voldemort act as a Pseudo-Horcrux to anchor Harry to life when he dies so Harry doesn't actually die.

He was planning that from The End of Book 4 as a thing after how Voldemort Ressurected himself. Otherwise Harry would actually have to die as a thing to end Voldemort. The Child who Dumbledore had come to see as basically his own grandchild ...

... And you know, how remarkably selfish of you, Dumbledore. Understandable, but still selfish. This wasn't for The Greater Good, this wasn't for a Lesser Evil, this was done so Harry would have a chance to live and have a life after Voldemort died. Which means basically everything which happened in Book 7 was done so Harry could live.
 
Not recently, no.

From just that quote, yeah. I agree. But in context of the rest of what we know of the character, it seems like he's trying to tell Tom that he saw the real horrors of the Wehrmacht and were he to give in to his basest desires, he wouldn't be so humane as to just kill him.

To me, though, it feels pretty out of character from the rest of the books and I have to wonder if that scene was maybe sourced from an editor or added in after talking with a veteran father/grandfather. But again: I haven't actually read the books even remotely recently so maybe I'm just wrong.
To be fair to your recollection, that isn't the only time we get a glimpse of Dumbledore giving folks a glimpse under the mask. During the confrontation with Lucius Malfoy at the end of 'Chamber of Secrets' Dumbledore gives him a... warning about the consequences of any more shit like that being pulled.

You know as I think about it... CoS is genuinely one of the darkest books in the series.
 
[Sigh]

Do I have to keep quoting the books at people? Rather than some fanon interpretation which was probably made by people who watched ... [Hiss] ... The Films.

Anyway from Half Blood Prince, split into 3 as a bit long:


Then comes the wall of text, sorry, but this is how Rowling wrote it:

Less Wall of Text, but still a bit long too.


In summary, prophecy is self fufilling for the most part in The Harry Potter Universe. And Dumbledore understands that Harry, after dealing with all the shit Voldemort has put him wants to kill the motherfucker himself.

This also sets up Dumbledore's, "Thread the eye of the needle, while wearing oven gloves," plan of hardness to have Voldemort act as a Pseudo-Horcrux to anchor Harry to life when he dies so Harry doesn't actually die.

He was planning that from The End of Book 4 as a thing after how Voldemort Ressurected himself. Otherwise Harry would actually have to die as a thing to end Voldemort. The Child who Dumbledore had come to see as basically his own grandchild ...

... And you know, how remarkably selfish of you, Dumbledore. Understandable, but still selfish. This wasn't for The Greater Good, this wasn't for a Lesser Evil, this was done so Harry would have a chance to live and have a life after Voldemort died. Which means basically everything which happened in Book 7 was done so Harry could live.
I understand where you're coming from here, and it sounds really nice, but I keep running into this brick wall before getting there.

In OotP, after the Ministry debacle, Dumbles tells Harry, "I knew I was sentencing you to ten hard years, that you would suffer."

Say what? Here stands the most powerful wizard in the world, head of the only school in Britain, leader of the Wizengamot, Britain's representative to the world, and winner of the first Voldemort war; and the best thing he can do is send a child to "ten hard years"?

Bullshit. Using only the magic and people found in the books, I can think of at least three different ways to protect Harry without him having to be abused.

But, if you're trying to raise a Martyr, somebody willing to die for others, or just have zero idea of how abuse affects children...

Dumbles was correct.

Personally, I hope Taylor and Harry tear down the entire Wizard World and rebuild it into something other than a race of magical Nazis.
 
[Sigh]

Do I have to keep quoting the books at people? Rather than some fanon interpretation which was probably made by people who watched ... [Hiss] ... The Films.

Anyway from Half Blood Prince, split into 3 as a bit long:


Then comes the wall of text, sorry, but this is how Rowling wrote it:

Less Wall of Text, but still a bit long too.


In summary, prophecy is self fufilling for the most part in The Harry Potter Universe. And Dumbledore understands that Harry, after dealing with all the shit Voldemort has put him wants to kill the motherfucker himself.

This also sets up Dumbledore's, "Thread the eye of the needle, while wearing oven gloves," plan of hardness to have Voldemort act as a Pseudo-Horcrux to anchor Harry to life when he dies so Harry doesn't actually die.

He was planning that from The End of Book 4 as a thing after how Voldemort Ressurected himself. Otherwise Harry would actually have to die as a thing to end Voldemort. The Child who Dumbledore had come to see as basically his own grandchild ...

... And you know, how remarkably selfish of you, Dumbledore. Understandable, but still selfish. This wasn't for The Greater Good, this wasn't for a Lesser Evil, this was done so Harry would have a chance to live and have a life after Voldemort died. Which means basically everything which happened in Book 7 was done so Harry could live.
Ok hold up I remember that scene, and yes he basically calls the prophecy self fulfilling, but! But, that entire conversation was a deflection.

Copy from the book

"But I haven't got uncommon skill and power," said Harry, before he could stop himself. "Yes, you have," said Dumbledore firmly. "You have a power that Voldemort has never had. You can —" "I know!" said Harry impatiently. "I can love!" It was only with difficulty that he stopped himself adding, "Big deal!" "Yes, Harry, you can love," said Dumbledore, who looked as though he knew perfectly well what Harry had just refrained from saying. "Which, given everything that has happened to you, is a great and remarkable thing. You are still too young to understand how unusual you are, Harry." "So, when the prophecy says that I'll have 'power the Dark Lord knows not,' it just means — love?" asked Harry, feeling a little let down. "Yes — just love," said Dumbledore. "But Harry, never forget that what the prophecy says is only significant because Voldemort made it so. I told you this at the end of last year. Voldemort singled you out as the person who would be most dangerous to him — and in doing so, he made you the person who would be most dangerous to him!" "But it comes to the same —" "No, it doesn't!" said Dumbledore, sounding impatient now. Pointing at Harry with his black, withered hand, he said, "You are setting too much store by the prophecy!" "But," spluttered Harry, "but you said the prophecy means —"

End copy

That whole rant of dumbles was kicked off because harry is panicking about how he is meant to stop voldemort and dumbles insisting that love is the answer.

And dumbles whole rant basically boils down to you're fighting him for your own reasons not because of fate.

It utterly fails to address the original issue which is Harry being convinced that he lacks any real edge to help him defeat voldemort. And while telling harry no the fate of the world doesn't rest on your shoulders as the chosen one is a nice pep talk it utterly fails to address the issue that Harry is an under qualified teenager or the fact that Dumbledore still intends to pit him against an incredibly skilled murderer.

And then because dumbles changed the subject but made Harry feel better, Harry just drops that completely separate concern and goes away happy. I remember that bullshit because it was one of the stand out scenes on my "want to strangle the author" list.

Edit: also if that really is Dumbles opinion on the prophecy it calls into question why the fuck he put so much effort into guarding the damn thing the year before.
 
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Edit: also if that really is Dumbles opinion on the prophecy it calls into question why the fuck he put so much effort into guarding the damn thing the year before.
One could posit he thinks hiding the remaining prophecy reduces the degree of Voldemort aiming to kill Harry, I guess.

And maybe Voldy is even that thick, considering how he didn't focus much on making sure to kill Harry in Goblet of Fire.
 
Not defending Dumbles on the issue, but by guarding the prophecy he elevated its importance in Moldy's eyes and it was already pretty high up for him, thus made him waste a whole year in a shadow war, which Molds still won but mostly by happenstance rather than overt action.
 
Taylor rattled off two options for if she has to do things without the order. One is watching Harry's back for anyone interested in planting a knife there the other is going hunting. Naturally dumbledore hates both of these options but lacks any morally acceptable means of forcing Taylor to pick a third choice. He can set her to work with the order but then she'll turn things into combat missions or decide he isn't ever going to step up at which point she goes rogue anyway.
If I were Dumbledore here I would (a) set her to work with the order, (b) team her with people she might want to and be able to convince to go her way rather than Dumbledore's, (c) constantly send her on missions investigating and/or capturing people suspected to be imperiused or blackmailed or otherwise non-willingly working with the Death Eaters.
It's a delaying action, but (1) these targets are a real concern, (2) her super-surveillance skills may work well for figuring out what's actually going on, and (3) it will force her to play by the book if these people might be varying degrees of innocent (and she doesn't want to look bad in front of her teammates). (4) She would be a reasonable choice for someone to put in charge of discovering new, possibly-compelled Voldemort followers, and (5) he might actually believe that seeing enough actually-somewhat-innocent forcibly-recruited people would convince her that holding a trial to prove things beyond a doubt is worthwhile even in the case of his longstanding supporters.

Snape claims credit for the death of an order member. He wouldn't risk that if it wasn't partly true because word would spread among the death eaters and if it was an outright lie…. Anyway.
I think it's very plausible that e.g. Snape and another Order member showed up on an op, ran into a Death Eater ambush he doubted they could escape, and he stunned his partner in the back and said "hey, I caught you an order member!"
Or he came across some death eaters searching e.g. "Charity Burbage" in muggle telephone books and said "oh, I know where she lives, I can take you there." (Because he didn't think he could save her without exposing himself as the one who tipped her off, and so might as well make use of her death for rep.)

Sets a teenager with no training an important espionage mission instead of letting Moody force the memory from slughorn.
To be fair, Moody is, even if retired, an Auror, and does not have Harry's shield of fame, and has a much more confrontational attitude. If Moody doesn't kill Slughorn, it's very possible that Slughorn hits him/the Aurors with enough backlash that it would be a net negative.

Yes, Harry was still likely not the best choice. But I think Dumbledore's real failing here might be not giving Harry any real advice or training. Even just saying 'oh, you could bring Pavarti with you, she's good at ferreting things out of people' or something. (That may be terrible advice, idk.)

But I think Dumbledore kind of wound up treating Harry as though he weren't an untrained teenager and was magically, fated-ly competent at whatever anti-Voldemort activities Dumbledore thought should happen--and to be fair to Dumbledore, Harry's track record is really not evidence against that.
Hands out critical information one drop at a time over months.
I'm not sure how much of that he was really sitting on to slowly dole out. For example, I think he found the seaside cave with the Locket right before going, and I think that implies some of the other stuff was pretty recently validated.
And then because dumbles changed the subject but made Harry feel better, Harry just drops that completely separate concern and goes away happy. I remember that bullshit because it was one of the stand out scenes on my "want to strangle the author" list.
...This seems very realistic to me? Teenager is angry, has a legitimate concern. You pacify them and compliment them and calm them down and give them something else to think about, and they completely forget about the legitimate concern that originally made them angry. Core technique of parenting?
 
This seems very realistic to me? Teenager is angry, has a legitimate concern. You pacify them and compliment them and calm them down and give them something else to think about, and they completely forget about the legitimate concern that originally made them angry. Core technique of parenting?
You had some good points and some mediocre points but then I got to this and had to walk away before I started shouting at you.

First of all I find it incredibly concerning that you consider brush off legitimate concerns of the child or teen and distract them in the hopes they never consider the issue again a core parenting technique. Just, what the hell?

If it was a six year old upset about not getting icecream then sure, yes, that's fine. but this is a 16 year old concerned about how not to be murdered by someone actively trying to kill him. Those are not the same situation and they should not be treated the same.

Dumbledore is also very seriously not a parent, let alone Harry's parent. Frankly for how little the man interacts with Harry he barely even qualifies as a mentor.

Telling harry, "you will win because you can love" is a platitude at best, and in general unhelpful. That reframing Harry's reason to fight worked as a distraction is not unbelievable. that Harry doesn't come storming up to Dumbledore at a later date with his original "ok but how do I actually fight him I'm not on his level" concern? That I find ridiculous.
 
I would argue that they aren't very good at it.

They're generally successful, but that mostly seems to come down to having the initiative and their ability to run away at the drop of a hat and bribe people not to look for them.

This^

A competent DE terrorist group properly dedicated to winning would teleport in, throw up magical nets to prevent escape, and toss a fiendfyre spark or a bundle of explosive curses into the target before teleporting to the next target. The authorities would be overwhelmed in minutes trying to control all the chaos popping up all over the place and the DEs could go on to do whatever mayhem they wanted basically unworried about Auror response for at least a few minutes, potentially a few hours if fiendfyre is really that hard to put out.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that Voldy knows he COULD do that if he wanted and win in weeks, but he wants to take all his enemies' stuff intact and rule over a still extant sheeple. He wants people to abuse and terrorize when he's in charge, he doesn't want to just be on the top of the pile. It's a strategic decision on his part based on greed.
 
Dumbledore in canon is more a set of vibes wrapped around a plot device. His specific actions most often boil down to whatever is needed to make the plot work rather then what someone with his motivations and abilities would actually do.

If you write him acting ways that make sense for his resources and personality then you are writing him better then Rowling did.
 
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