Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Continuing on my thoughts about switching the gaols to either Vast sized world or Lord of the Land. I think that, before mechanics, it comes down to different narratives. To different aesthetic choices. Let me explain.

If we take Lord of the Land, than Molly becomes connected to her world in a way that she normally wouldn't be. In a very real sense, she becomes its goddess, more so than she normally would by right of creating it. The world's natural phenomena obey her will as it goes - inside her soul, Molly is more than her body. She is closer to awakening as a primordial.

If I instead use Vast size... Assuming that the area at least 500 kilometers wide can still be called "a narrow strip of land" (and in ecological sense it still is), the size of the cities becomes... incomprehensible, really. As in - I start losing the ability to imagine them. A city over 500 kilometers wide, a futuristic city at that, with skyscrapers and high density of population? That's not something we as a species have ever dealt with. It's a society billions, perhaps tens of billions large, crammed together, interacting in different and not yet discovered ways. Probably with arcologies and stuff like that existing within the Cities. At this point each City would be more than a nation state as we understand them. The aesthetics for Molly would also be different. The world inside her soul, its problems, its scope would be significantly larger than Earth. She would be a ruler, creator, warden, goddess of a world that's bigger than Earth. Essentially, what would be peaking through Molly's eyes would be something for which an individual human life, hell, the lives of everyone on the planet, would be, if not a rounding error, than at least less on the balance than her own well being. Because even from a purely utlitiarian perspective, when choosing between condemning a world with 8 billion people, and a world with 50+ billion, the world of 8 billion people would lose. And that has narrative weight. That has interesting storytelling in it.

I have, I think, a possible solution - the Great Labyrinth below the ice, the Malfean-inspired moon-sized ruin, which is basically a Terra Incognita of the setting. Inititally I introduced it when convinced to take Gaols. If I drop Gaols, the Labyrinth stays in the setting. It just gets more ruined / inhospitable. We would need to make effort to explore it, to conquer parts of it, to repair some of its systems, to claim some of its mystical nodes, and to awaken long dormant spirits, or remake them. This, essentially, sets us to get Gaols via in-story effort which is more than "we order our loyal subjects to build a secure prison complex". It would be an adventure. The same with Grand Grimoire trait. I have mentioned that the Labyrinth is populated with primitive tribes (with a possiblity that deeper layers are populated by far more advanced and powerful ones, up to and including someone straight from earlier ages). The description is like this:
Tribes of primitives seem to inhabit the corridors and great halls of this labyrinth. They war endlessly for resources, locations of thermal vents and power lines, utilizing what great mechanism-organs the labyrinth has active with great skill. In the deeper levels, evidence of more sophisticated and advanced societies has been observed.

No one tries to leave, and, in fact, what few prisoners were ever taken by the exploration expeditions, indicate that escaping the sphere is considered to be the greatest of sins. The labyrinth inhabitants believe themselves to be both its prisoners and wardens, waiting for the Head Warden to come and, in a paradoxical way, both affirm their oaths and release them from their prison.
The Head Warden is, obvsiously, supposed to be Molly. I could make them more hostile to outsiders, and distrustful of any claims anyone makes of being such a head warden. Something like "one would have to lay a path of conquest down to the very core of the Labyrinth in order to claim the title, for the hate the tribes have for the outsiders is legendary indeed". This would probably allow them to be modelled as a resitsance movement (• Resistance Movement (Cost: None; gain 1 point): A minority of the Realm's inhabitants fervently hate and resent you, and seek your overthrow or demise. You may only select this option if your Hell is Loyal, Committed, or Fanatical.). This would give me 1 more point, at which point both Vast size and Lord of the Land become available for purchase. The issue here is that this feels a bit like cheating. They would be, by design, confined into the Sphere. They won't be part of common day society. We would interact with them if we try to explore the Sphere, to claim it. Essentially, they would represent increased resistance to getting Primordial-tier prison system, beyond-ancient lore, stuff like that. Molly would have to negotiate with them, convince them, or fight them. The text of Resistance Movement says that the "minority population seeks your demise", which feels like active attempts should be in the books. Which this idea doesn't actually generate - unless Molly ventures into the Sphere, they would be pretty safe to ignore. If @DragonParadox is ok with this, I'll be taking this option, probably. It gives us a lot of actual plot potential. It also meshes well with Godsworn story by @myrix which I just love to bits - there are definitely shades of possible resistance movement motivation in Soaring Enlightment's thoughts.

This would give me both Vast size, and Lord of the Land.
 
This is the least promising of them. First off it is explicitly touch range and generally if we can touch a enemy we are much better off just using green sun nimbus on them. Second it only has a duration of days and there is no point in using it unless you are going to let them go afterwards. So a few days latter they might have learned their lesson about crossing us, but more likely they just learn not to let us touch them. And third and most damming it doesn't make other people forget about them so any followers they have are still a problem. The only use case I can think of is if there are people we don't want to kill who are only threating because of their followers and we only need them gone for a few days. Not promising at all. If someone else can come up with some use cases please let me know.
I'd argue that this is actually really good, but only situationally.

The specific reason is that the denarians are very dependent on the relationship between the fallen and the mortal that make up a pair. The more they can trust and work with each other like partners the stronger they are. It's the reason Magog is a mook and Anduriel+Nicodemus nearly run the show.

It's especially worth noting that Nicodemus is the only host Anduriel has ever had. I'm pretty sure Butcher literally describes him as his "one and only" at some point, but I can't find the WoJ.

Andurial's reaction to someone stealing his coin and impersonating Nicodemus, which is what the charm would make it look like happened, would be spectacularly unpleasant.

Then the effect would wear off and he'd have to live with the memory of what he did to what is functionally his soulmate* and partner of the last two millennia.

I'm not sure if we can actually kill a fallen Angel any time soon, but we might be able to trick one into ruining his own life.

* pretty sure it's platonic, but I don't have a better word for it.
 
I'd argue that this is actually really good, but only situationally.

The specific reason is that the denarians are very dependent on the relationship between the fallen and the mortal that make up a pair. The more they can trust and work with each other like partners the stronger they are. It's the reason Magog is a mook and Anduriel+Nicodemus nearly run the show.

It's especially worth noting that Nicodemus is the only host Anduriel has ever had. I'm pretty sure Butcher literally describes him as his "one and only" at some point, but I can't find the WoJ.

Andurial's reaction to someone stealing his coin and impersonating Nicodemus, which is what the charm would make it look like happened, would be spectacularly unpleasant.

Then the effect would wear off and he'd have to live with the memory of what he did to what is functionally his soulmate* and partner of the last two millennia.

I'm not sure if we can actually kill a fallen Angel any time soon, but we might be able to trick one into ruining his own life.

* pretty sure it's platonic, but I don't have a better word for it.
Now i want to do it just for this one thing.
 
She would be a ruler, creator, warden, goddess of a world that's bigger than Earth. Essentially, what would be peaking through Molly's eyes would be something for which an individual human life, hell, the lives of everyone on the planet, would be, if not a rounding error, than at least less on the balance than her own well being. Because even from a purely utlitiarian perspective, when choosing between condemning a world with 8 billion people, and a world with 50+ billion, the world of 8 billion people would lose. And that has narrative weight. That has interesting storytelling in it.
For anyone familar with Rihaku's quests, he did a villain that had something like this going on in Even Further Beyond. It might be interesting to grapple with it from the other side.
 
I'd argue that this is actually really good, but only situationally.

The specific reason is that the denarians are very dependent on the relationship between the fallen and the mortal that make up a pair. The more they can trust and work with each other like partners the stronger they are. It's the reason Magog is a mook and Anduriel+Nicodemus nearly run the show.

It's especially worth noting that Nicodemus is the only host Anduriel has ever had. I'm pretty sure Butcher literally describes him as his "one and only" at some point, but I can't find the WoJ.

Andurial's reaction to someone stealing his coin and impersonating Nicodemus, which is what the charm would make it look like happened, would be spectacularly unpleasant.

Then the effect would wear off and he'd have to live with the memory of what he did to what is functionally his soulmate* and partner of the last two millennia.

I'm not sure if we can actually kill a fallen Angel any time soon, but we might be able to trick one into ruining his own life.

* pretty sure it's platonic, but I don't have a better word for it.
That would be a fairly cool use case, but buying a 6xp charm that we will likely only use once rubs me the wrong way. Also if we manage to touch Nicodemus I would rather hit him with GSN and just burn him from the inside out.
 
That would be a fairly cool use case, but buying a 6xp charm that we will likely only use once rubs me the wrong way. Also if we manage to touch Nicodemus I would rather hit him with GSN and just burn him from the inside out.
I wouldn't call it single use, it's basically a debuff that scales with the power of the Denarian because for the most part bond strength translates to the amount of power the mortal can wield for the fallen.

It's not like it's useless against other either. Primarily if we want to keep a captive making it so that no one who seems them believes it's the same person would be useful to name one case. There's also the threat of it as quick and dirty leverage on someone in the wild.

We're under no obligation to tell anyone about the shelf life and most people probably can't discern that sort of detail about a charm themselves. We could walk up to someone and take their life in a metaphorical sense, then offer to give it back if they comply with whatever we want from them.

Outside of people who literally draw on the fell power of friendship to operate it's sort of awkward to use, but it isn't impossible to get value from.

To circle back to the big fish for a moment though, Nicodemus isn't going to die easy and neither will his angelic partner. Doing meaningful and permanent harm to them isn't without its own value in the meantime.
 
Only thing is that Angels, Fallen or otherwise, are the types to have perfect mental defences.
Not perfect or at least that isn't supported by DF. Not countered either, but perfect effects are Exalted's big thing. Also perfect mental defenses aren't nearly as good here since you need to notice something is wrong to trigger them.
 
Not perfect or at least that isn't supported by DF. Not countered either, but perfect effects are Exalted's big thing. Also perfect mental defenses aren't nearly as good here since you need to notice something is wrong to trigger them.

I think there's something suggestive of it in that it's impossible to redeem or change the original Lasciel, but Lash can be changed.

It's the kind of perfect that Infernals get, which make them inviolable but also make it very hard to change their mind.
 
It's important to know if there might be any natural hyperbole. Like I say "It's impossible to pluck the sun out of the sky" I am speaking the truth, but I am also using hyperbole. In reality it's just really hard which is the difference between a perfect effect or not.
 
It's especially worth noting that Nicodemus is the only host Anduriel has ever had. I'm pretty sure Butcher literally describes him as his "one and only" at some point, but I can't find the WoJ.

Found the WOJ you were looking for here.

Is Nicodemus the first host for Anduriel?

What is Nicodemus' occupation before he chose to change career to murdering murderer?

Thanks!
  1. Yes, the one and only.

  2. He was a tax collector. Which was only technically not as bad as being a murderer at that time in history. :)
 
Only thing is that Angels, Fallen or otherwise, are the types to have perfect mental defences.
Possibly, but I doubt that they have all encompassing perfect mental defenses that are always on. We know that Uriel's physical defenses actually require him to pay attention and take action, so I don't see why all the cool social effects should get nerfed into the ground by handing out free and flawless immunity to everyone that matters.

A perfect intimacy defense might catch us here, but since the effect doesn't force betrayal so much as make you forget that a specific person is the one who holds the other side I'd think it'd have some effect up until a true betrayal happened.

You could also arguably fluff it as something other than UMI. It doesn't really specify an exact mechanism of action, and it could easily work as something similar to BMI to create a perfect illusion of being a stranger to everyone you meet. In some ways that would make more sense, because otherwise you get an effect that targets everyone around the subject if the charm for days and allows no one else a save.
 
Could I get a citation on that, actually?

Here:

The hard part of being a Fallen is being this creature who is written in indelible ink and who can't recover in many ways. That's sort of the great tragedy of them but that's who they are in the cosmos, they have to be who they are or the balance falls apart.​
 
Here:

The hard part of being a Fallen is being this creature who is written in indelible ink and who can't recover in many ways. That's sort of the great tragedy of them but that's who they are in the cosmos, they have to be who they are or the balance falls apart.​
They can still learn and feel though, so clearly they aren't completely static. They also fell in the first place, which implies the ink isn't quite as indelible as it appears.

I don't doubt they're functionally impossible to fundamentally change, but that isn't the same as generalized immunity to mind games which don't target their core functions.
 
Here:

The hard part of being a Fallen is being this creature who is written in indelible ink and who can't recover in many ways. That's sort of the great tragedy of them but that's who they are in the cosmos, they have to be who they are or the balance falls apart.​
Thing is the Ebony Dragon is like that. The wicked shadow of creation. However the Ebony Dragon also isn't a person underneath it all. Hmm... Is it possible that the fallen angels are shards of the Ebony Dragon?

No that doesn't work. The Ebony Dragon isn't even really capable of being as nice as the fallen angels sometimes are.
 
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Here:

The hard part of being a Fallen is being this creature who is written in indelible ink and who can't recover in many ways. That's sort of the great tragedy of them but that's who they are in the cosmos, they have to be who they are or the balance falls apart.​
Google is unhelpful. Is this a recent WoJ? Also, the talk about "balance" makes me ask how much they have actually fallen, and how much they'd are God's black ops team.
 
Thing is the Ebony Dragon is likely that. The wicked shadow of creation. However the Ebony Dragon also isn't a person underneath it all. Hmm... Is it possible that the fallen angels are shards of the Ebony Dragon?

No that doesn't work. The Ebony Dragon isn't even really capable of being as nice as the fallen angels sometimes are.

The Ebon Dragon (and Scarlet Empress) play a staring role in the metaphysics and history of the Wan Kuei. They're the embodiments of the cosmological principles of Yin and Yang, and they created the process by which the Wan Xian took the Second Breath on the orders of God/the August Personage of Jade/the Heavenly Emperor.

They're believed still to exist in the depths of the spirit world.

Google is unhelpful. Is this a recent WoJ? Also, the talk about "balance" makes me ask how much they have actually fallen, and how much they'd are God's black ops team.

The full quote is:

Priscellie: Valid. Chris Mullan? asks "if Uriel became mortal when he willingly gave up his grace how or why did the Fallen retain their immortality?"
Jim: The difference was that Uriel's grace was not something that was /taken/ from him, it was something he elected to give up and what was left behind when he did that was essentially this pure human who had not done anything and had not fallen from grace, this pure mortal who was left over after Uriel handed his grace off. So he could still act and walk around and maneuver as a mortal. When it comes to the Fallen though, their grace was taken from them and sort of all that was left was the /shadow/ of the angel that they had been, sort of the negative impression of that angel. They didn't have their own body, their own free will that they could exercise and lose because they already exercised their will and choose badly and lost it. The hard part of being a Fallen is being this creature who is written in indelible ink and who can't recover in many ways. That's sort of the great tragedy of them but that's who they are in the cosmos, they have to be who they are or the balance falls apart.​
 
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This would probably allow them to be modelled as a resitsance movement (• Resistance Movement (Cost: None; gain 1 point): A minority of the Realm's inhabitants fervently hate and resent you, and seek your overthrow or demise. You may only select this option if your Hell is Loyal, Committed, or Fanatical.). This would give me 1 more point, at which point both Vast size and Lord of the Land become available for purchase. The issue here is that this feels a bit like cheating. They would be, by design, confined into the Sphere. They won't be part of common day society. We would interact with them if we try to explore the Sphere, to claim it. Essentially, they would represent increased resistance to getting Primordial-tier prison system, beyond-ancient lore, stuff like that. Molly would have to negotiate with them, convince them, or fight them. The text of Resistance Movement says that the "minority population seeks your demise", which feels like active attempts should be in the books. Which this idea doesn't actually generate - unless Molly ventures into the Sphere, they would be pretty safe to ignore. If @DragonParadox is ok with this, I'll be taking this option, probably. It gives us a lot of actual plot potential. It also meshes well with Godsworn story by @myrix which I just love to bits - there are definitely shades of possible resistance movement motivation in Soaring Enlightment's thoughts.
First of all, thanks for such high assessment of the story, I'm glad you like it so much! Always good when things you do make other people's lives better, so my pleasure writing it!

Second, Yog you in particular & everybody else, please feel free to not only use any of the elements of the story but also change them in any way to fit whatever you do in the quest.

Now as I envisioned her when writing the story, Soaring Enlightment definitely has motivation to be a part of possible resistance movement, you can say that she is categorically (even unreasonably, because of what she'd seen, or even had been traumatized by, depending on your interpretation) opposed to any government that derives any part of its authority not from freely given consent of its constituents, or has the potential to become such a government.

So she would not stop until Molly has any explicit or implicit role in the Realm's governance that is different from the role of any other citizen, so she would oppose any government that ultimately recognizes her as the Sovereign, regardless of how much real government power she would have, constitutional monarchy is also out, and even a Sovereign without any power is also a danger because the title itself has some power in the hearts and minds.

Soaring Enlightment would be most comfortable if Molly would at least reform the government to explicitly remove any religious influence and affirm that the only source of authority are the people, abdicate as sovereign and release all allegiances and oaths personally to her, effectively becoming just another citizen of the Realm, and firmly and explicitly decree these principles (the people are the only authority, Creator goddess is just another citizen) to all who rever her as divine authority, irreparably baking them into religious teachings.

Regardless of whether this is realistic or not, Soaring Enlightment is ready to try. The crux is, though, is that she would prefer to achieve that peacefully. The goal is to prevent people suffering under a government that is not concerned for them, but the point is people should not suffer at all if possible, and needless violence defeats the purpose even if it is purportedly for a better future.

So, given that Molly is rather virtuous and Soaring Enlightment would see that sooner or later, for her the proper path would be political, through formation of political movements, winning elections, winning people's hearts and minds, conducting referendums and asking the Sovereign to respect the will of the people and curtail their power voluntarily.

Not sure it would qualify as a resistance movement as in fervent hate and resentment and seeking to overthrow.

But then, I would think that among the billion+ people of the Realm there are bound to be such people. Heretics, who would think that Creator's role is to create and then to die / go away. Cults who would believe that the Creator is evil or that the Empress-to-Be is a deceiver and not the true Creator, and that the true purpose is to oppose the Empress after the fulfillment, wrestle the Realm away from her, preferably terminating her existence, and find the true good gods / the true Creator. Political radicals ready for violence from the get-go (c.f. Russian revolutionaries and nihilists of the 19th century and political violence caused by them, including assassination of Alexander II). Commited people with grudges for the Covenant or for the Creator herself, reasonable and unreasonable, like why the Realm is full of suffering, inhospitable, overpopulated, a prison, unnatural, withholds the joy of having children, is not more like / is not straight up paradise.

And all these groups would have thousands of cycles (I count 1000 Realm moon cycles as 80 Earth years, so centuries) of the Age of the Covenant, from the moment it is widely accepted that the Prophecy of Arrival of the Empress-to-Be is proven and true, to plan and plot, move in the shadows, acquire influence, network, ally / oppose / form other kinds of relationships. All that helped by the relative continuity of leadership due to absence of true death. So, I would think you can just straight up add Resistance Movement to the build for additional build point if you so desire, and don't tie it to the Sphere.
 
[X] Detective Murphy, having the law on your side will be a nice change.

Murphy is Best Owmynads, and as a cop, she deserves to be in on the loop of cop-killers.
 
So she would not stop until Molly has any explicit or implicit role in the Realm's governance that is different from the role of any other citizen, so she would oppose any government that ultimately recognizes her as the Sovereign, regardless of how much real government power she would have, constitutional monarchy is also out, and even a Sovereign without any power is also a danger because the title itself has some power in the hearts and minds.
In fairness to Molly on this one the hell isn't just territory she rules, it's literally part of her soul-body.

If I had sapient bacteria living in my gut I'd be asserting primacy over their government too, regardless of how fair or unfair it is.

You've got a point about some of the resistance moment stuff in general, but since we're retroactively assembling the entire history of the civilization on the spot I don't think it's a stretch to just choose to not have these problems at first. Otherwise we risk something unpleasant like outside entities getting easy beachheads inside it.
 
I think that I would be willing to accept a not quite 100% approval rating if it means that the number of loyal subjects increases more than 10 fold.
 
[X] Detective Murphy, having the law on your side will be a nice change.

a few updates back are those Jade Court? or is it something Exalted side?
 
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