Graf of Sudenberg, a Warhammer CKII quest

[x] Pull your handgunners off the barricade at the last moment, allowing them to avoid close combat, but forfeiting a third volley

If we had bayonets, getting them into close combat wouldn't be that much of an issue, but as it is, it doesn't seem worthwhile to me.
On the flipside, maybe this'll give an impetus to the Graf to get in contact with his learning adviser and see about developing bayonets? Even plug bayonets would make a huge difference for us, and it'd kinda fit with our situation - severely limited manpower pool and whatnot - to try and make the most out of every single soldier we have.
Well, I mean, they do have swords, they just aren't very good with them.

As far as bayonets go, I'm pretty sure they haven't been developed in the Warhammer-verse yet for the same reason that Halberds are more prolific- tougher enemies. As such, I'm okay with you guys developing them, but understand that it means that Handgunners will still be at a disadvantage against orks and undead and other such extra-killy foes.

I suppose I'll make it a personal action to direct the research efforts of Ms. Muntz.
 
[x] Pull your handgunners off the barricade at the last moment, allowing them to avoid close combat, but forfeiting a third volley

Why waste them like that.
 
[x] Pull your handgunners off the barricade at the last moment, allowing them to avoid close combat, but forfeiting a third volley.
 
[x] Pull your handgunners off the barricade at the last moment, allowing them to avoid close combat, but forfeiting a third volley.
 
Well, I mean, they do have swords, they just aren't very good with them.

As far as bayonets go, I'm pretty sure they haven't been developed in the Warhammer-verse yet for the same reason that Halberds are more prolific- tougher enemies. As such, I'm okay with you guys developing them, but understand that it means that Handgunners will still be at a disadvantage against orks and undead and other such extra-killy foes.

I suppose I'll make it a personal action to direct the research efforts of Ms. Muntz.
Not all our enemies are things like orcs or undead, though (albeit those are two of our major concerns, given the area we operate in). Against things like arabyans, or tribesmen from the jungle, they'd do perfectly fine.

Plus, the point of the bayonets is to make some units/weapons such as spears unnecessary/obsolete. Meaning we can take our spearmen, and either turn them into additional handgunners, so enemies facing us can get even *more* shot to the face, or into heavier/better melee units such as halberdiers. (Though the latter should be possible in either case, since the spear doesn't really have any advantages over the halberd, save for being cheaper.)
 
Hey, give the spear some credit. A simple extension of it makes it one of the best weapons the world ever saw- one used well into the gun age. After all, a spear is, undoubtedly, the best weapon with which a charge can be resisted. Guns just so happen to make such charges weaker prior to the moment of impact.

The infantry square was developed for a reason.
 
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[x] Pull your handgunners off the barricade at the last moment, allowing them to avoid close combat, but forfeiting a third volley
 
[X] Pull your handgunners off the barricade at the last moment, allowing them to avoid close combat, but forfeiting a third volley
 
[X] Pull your handgunners off the barricade at the last moment, allowing them to avoid close combat, but forfeiting a third volley
 
[X] Pull your handgunners off the barricade at the last moment, allowing them to avoid close combat, but forfeiting a third volley
 
Hey, give the spear some credit. A simple extension of it makes it one of the best weapons the world ever saw- one used well into the gun age. After all, a spear is, undoubtedly, the best weapon with which a charge can be resisted. Guns just so happen to make such charges weaker prior to the moment of impact.

The infantry square was developed for a reason.
Definitely.
Kill/break them before they reach you works better against human foes, but We Have Reserves + Insane Morale or We Are Too Tough takes substantially better guns to obsolete the pikewall.
 
Any enemy with the reserves, morale, and/or durability to be unaffected by gun volleys is going to be just as unaffected by a spear or pike wall.

So, no; the bayonet would still make spears and pikes obsolete, because between a normal spear wall, or a spear wall that can shoot the enemy a few times while they approach, the latter is rather obviously the better choice.
 
In theory, yes. But keep in mind that a plug-bayoneted musket is heavier, and more cumbersome than a spear. The spear is purpose built to stab things, wheras a plug-bayoneted musket is more of an unhappy compromise. The plug prevents the musket from....being a musket. Which nullifies the advantage the gun gives, if you are able to repulse the enemy.

Socket bayonets are also an imperfect science, especially early attempts. Where they had a nasty habit of falling off, or breaking off, in the things they stabbed. The vibrations caused by the gunfire could also dislodge them. The age of the spear ain't over yet.
 
Any enemy with the reserves, morale, and/or durability to be unaffected by gun volleys is going to be just as unaffected by a spear or pike wall.

There's a reason why even into the late 1700s if you can't stand and trade bayonets, you don't actually have an army. A volley of musketry is a mental obstacle more than a physical one. A wall of bayonets is a physical obstacle.

A wall of pikes is a considerably more formidable physical obstacle. With lunacy like Orcs, Warhammer pikemen might last until the development of repeating rifles and indirect-fire artillery actually allow killing a close order formation to a man quickly.
 
The drawbacks of even plug bayonets are absolutely minuscule compared to the advantages provided by no longer being forced to split troops between weapons and tasks.

Similarly, the only advantage pikes have over spears is reach, which only actually matters against cavalry using lances or the like.

Are there going to be specific situations where having an actual spear or pike rather than a musket with bayonet might be better? Sure. Even nowadays there's sometimes situation in combat where having a dedicated melee weapon would be better. But those are going to be a minority compared to the situations where having more ranged firepower to throw at enemies proves advantageous.
 
Similarly, the only advantage pikes have over spears is reach, which only actually matters against cavalry using lances or the like.
That is false. Reach is one of the single biggest contributors to a unit's ability to defeat an opposing unit no matter composition. That's why lances, spears, and pikes were all mainstays of the battlefield.

Granted, I still haven't refined my combat system to show this, but pikes beat essentially everything on a battlefield, so long as it was able to hit it head-on.

Guns beat them out because, well, they have much better reach and just as much if not more lethality.
 
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That is false. Reach is one of the single biggest contributors to a unit's ability to defeat an opposing unit no matter composition. That's why lances, spears, and pikes were all mainstays of the battlefield.

Granted, I still haven't refined my combat system to show this, but pikes beat essentially everything on a battlefield, so long as it was able to hit it head-on.
Pikes can be useful, but they're not the be-all end-all of medieval weapons. Get close enough (using heavily armored infantry with heavy weapons that can smash the pikes aside or destroy them, for example), or fight in the right terrain (like, say, a swamp, or jungle, like the area we're living in) and the long reach becomes a liability instead. There's a reason the tercio always had them supported by troops with swords and firearms.

Guns beat them out because, well, they have much better reach and just as much if not more lethality.
Kinda my point with the whole "bayonets make spears and pikes obsolete".
 
Pikes can be useful, but they're not the be-all end-all of medieval weapons.
I mean, they kinda were. The end of the medieval era had, essentially, Tercios and various forms of cavalry. Only Italian condottieri really break for the mold by any great degree, and it is generally accepted that they lagged behind the rest of Europe as far as military technology goes.
Get close enough (using heavily armored infantry with heavy weapons that can smash the pikes aside or destroy them, for example)
If this is a reference to Zweihanders, they were generally a part of a pike unit and were there to break deadlocks between themselves and other pike units. If it isn't a reference to that, the issue becomes just how many pikes they can knock aside. If it's a ten-footer, then, sure, I can see them batting away the three or four pikes they need to to get at the front row of guys. But a 25-footer makes that sort of tactic impossible on a practical level, as you have to bat your way past up to eight pikes and thus you have to resort to your second point.
fight in the right terrain (like, say, a swamp, or jungle, like the area we're living in) and the long reach becomes a liability instead
Which is good if you are fighting on defense, as you get to decide where the battles take place and thus can avoid the plains or mountains which allow pikes to either maneuver well enough or remove the necessity of maneuver, but, then, that's an issue with every weapon and war. All melee war is about supply and maneuver. Guns simply remove a good degree of importance off of the second requirement.



Alas, I do believe we're getting off topic, slightly, so I will close with this. You can develop bayonets. If you use a plug bayonet (bearing further research), gunners will act as a regular melee unit against humans and other, non-tough units, but will act as militia against tougher units. This is an improvement, as it will reduce costs to recruit a gunner unit (as you no longer need to equip them with swords that they are not skilled in) as well as remove the disadvantage to melee rolls they currently have. It is a liability, as it will, like normal plug bayonets, remove the ability of gunners to participate in any upcoming fallback, retreat, or skirmish actions until the end of that battle. Further research will allow for the creation of ring, and then socket bayonets, which will be the final evolution. Ring bayonets will improve on plug bayonets by allowing for the gunner unit to still take part in the various ranged combats. Socket bayonets will improve upon ring bayonets by making the gunners regulars in all melee combat, no matter the enemy.

Researching ring bayonets can take place after the first combat action with plug bayonets.

Researching Socket bayonets can take place after handguns are refined to a yet-undecided degree.

Now then, would you guys like to continue on this argument or would you like for me to get back to writing up your combat?
 
I actually feel kinda bad now. You guys arguing about the pros and cons of pikes didn't really slow down my writing, I'd just rather you guys not be going somewhat off-tangent. Really, I'd love it if anyone was up for Omake writing, but I'd settle for discussion that is more on-topic.
 
Not really sure how the discussion was off-topic, to be honest. Bayonets and how they compare to more traditional weapons is going to play a pretty big factor in the composition of our army.

That said, I think it's pretty clear the debate was more or less just moving in circles. I'm still of the opinion that the bayonet makes spears, pikes, and the like obsolete, while others think that the nature of enemies in WHF means that they aren't going to be obsolete for a while, and with the GM pretty clearly supporting the latter stance I don't really think that there's any more to discuss.
 
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