[X][Piltover]: Getting Tools, Training, and Knowledge is Worth Playing Nice
[X][Downtime]: Keeping Working on her Mouser Bombs Alone

Sure, we could get everything we ever wanted.

And all it would cost us is our soul.

While we enjoy fancy labs and neat tools and fresh food and an education... everyone we know and love suffers under the boots of the same people we'd be working with. And fixing piltover from the inside somehow is a pipe dream. They don't want to be fixed.

We should avoid getting more entangled with topside than we already are.

Mechanically, we should also focus on maximizing our stat recovery. After two failures in a row, taking more risks is the last thing we need, a bit if self-reassurance and relaxation are just what the doctor ordered.

Besides, working on our tech is always gonna be good in general.
 
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X][Piltover]: Getting Tools, Training, and Knowledge is Worth Playing Nice
Issues: Daughter of Zaun (-2), Trauma (-2)
Failure Consequences: Failed Masquerade


[X][Downtime]: Keeping Working on her Mouser Bombs Alone
Regain 2 Stability and Willpower, but no social contact
 
[X][Piltover]: If he Thinks it's My Chance for a Better Life, I Should Try
-[X] spend one willpower

[X][Downtime]: Keeping Working on her Mouser Bombs Alone
 
[X][Piltover]: If he Thinks it's My Chance for a Better Life, I Should Try
-[X] spend one willpower

[X][Downtime]: Keeping Working on her Mouser Bombs Alone
 
[X][Piltover]: If he Thinks it's My Chance for a Better Life, I Should Try

[X][Downtime]: Keeping Working on her Mouser Bombs Alone
 
[X][Piltover]: Getting Tools, Training, and Knowledge is Worth Playing Nice
[X][Piltover]: I'm Not Gonna Pretend to be a Piltie-Lover for Anything!
[X][Downtime]: Keeping Working on her Mouser Bombs Alone

The stability and willpower is just too juicy to pass up here, but voting for both non-Piltie lover options because that one is winning right now and I think that's abhorrent. I agree with @Swordswain, but also I'd like to play as Jinx in the Jinx quest - hopefully a better adjusted Jinx, who isn't actively suicidal. But still recognizably Jinx rather than idk, try to play as essentially Powder pretending to be S1 Viktor.

I think he has time for his jobs, it's just that babysit grown man he's already propped up twice over isn't one of them. It'll be interesting to see if Viktor gets left out of Hextech this time around and what he does or doesn't manage to build up in it's place.

I think we might be talking past each other because I have no idea what you're saying?

He has both been the head political figure of a city-state for three centuries and the head of the biggest educational institution, and that city-state is horribly oppressive to half it's citizens. His one redeeming feature is that his sponsorship of Viktor (and later mentorship of Ekko) means that this likely wasn't deliberate on his part, just a result of his incompetence & his unwillingness to take serious action. But the fact that he's either failed to notice that the highest a genius like Viktor can hope for is to be his assistant or he has notice and just not done anything about it is absolutely a mark against him. Because this whole situation is Heimerdinger's fault.
 
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[X][Piltover]: If he Thinks it's My Chance for a Better Life, I Should Try

[X][Downtime]: Keeping Working on her Mouser Bombs Alone

Mousers is a no brainer, increasing stability and Willpower is super necessary for this quest. And wanting to work towards a better life is probably what Vander want's to hear/what will work out better in the long run.
 
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[X][Piltover]: If he Thinks it's My Chance for a Better Life, I Should Try

[X][Downtime]: Keeping Working on her Mouser Bombs Alone
 
[x] [Piltover]: Getting Tools, Training, and Knowledge is Worth Playing Nice

Yeah I don't want her going full native tbqh.

Also Sevika <3<3<3<3<3
 
Might be worth pointing out that the "go native" plan is likely going to alienate us from Vi. Vi is at this point an oppressed orphan, not a bluebelly cop.
 
[X] [Piltover]: Getting Tools, Training, and Knowledge is Worth Playing Nice
[X] [Downtime]: Keeping Working on her Mouser Bombs Alone
 
I would say its not a go native plan at all but simply making Vander proud of us
Going native would be forgetting your roots

Every single vote there's been a big swing of votes for the maximally Piltie-friendly option. And I won't say I don't get it - that's the option that feels the most golden-path-y because a large number of sympathetic named characters are from piltover. But when is this going to stop?

Even if it was possible to change Piltover from the inside I think that'd both be really unsatisfying and a boring direction to go. Are we just going to try to be one of the good ones until Piltover realizes that hey maybe poisoning children is wrong? Or Heimerdinger, Mel, Cassandra, etc. decide that maybe they should actually you know, do something about it? 'Cause if so, then we're not actually doing anything, we're just hoping that one of the NPCs will. Or at best that we can convince an NPC to do something. It's messier, but I'd prefer to actually be doing it ourselves.

I think Vander is straight up wrong in his philosophy. It's understandable, and he's got baggage and trauma to, but refusing to fight Piltover is condemning Vi, Mylo, Claggor, and every other Zaunite kid to the same intolerable conditions. Somebody has to pay the price in blood at some point. I'll also note that while (canonically) Piltover folded incredibly easily 1) that was implied to be heavily Jayce and Mel pulling favors like crazy and 2) with the exception of Jayce, they didn't fold because they were tired of orphaning kids. If that was it they'd have folded when our parents marched on the bridge. Also, Piltover folding was in the context of Zaun having built up weapons like the chemtanks without them knowing for like 6-7 years and having been working on hextech weapons.
 
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[X] [Piltover]: Getting Tools, Training, and Knowledge is Worth Playing Nice

Every single vote there's been a big swing of votes for the maximally Piltie-friendly option. And I won't say I don't get it - that's the option that feels the most golden-path-y because a large number of sympathetic named characters are from piltover. But when is this going to stop?

Even if it was possible to change Piltover from the inside I think that'd both be really unsatisfying and a boring direction to go. Are we just going to try to be one of the good ones until Piltover realizes that hey maybe poisoning children is wrong? Or Heimerdinger, Mel, Cassandra, etc. decide that maybe they should actually you know, do something about it? 'Cause if so, then we're not actually doing anything, we're just hoping that one of the NPCs will. Or at best that we can convince an NPC to do something. It's messier, but I'd prefer to actually be doing it ourselves.

I think Vander is straight up wrong in his philosophy. It's understandable, and he's got baggage and trauma to, but refusing to fight Piltover is condemning Vi, Mylo, Claggor, and every other Zaunite kid to the same intolerable conditions. Somebody has to pay the price in blood at some point. I'll also note that while (canonically) Piltover folded incredibly easily 1) that was implied to be heavily Jayce and Mel pulling favors like crazy and 2) with the exception of Jayce, they didn't fold because they were tired of orphaning kids. If that was it they'd have folded when our parents marched on the bridge. Also, Piltover folding was in the context of Zaun having built up weapons like the chemtanks without them knowing for like 6-7 years and having been working on hextech weapons.
Idk about the idea that the rest of the Council folded because of gunboat diplomacy
None of them voiced concerns over Piltover not being able to take Zaun on in a fight, if only because none of them were even aware of the Chemtanks
Jayce was the first to encounter them, and he didn't bring it up at the Council when he brought forward the peace deal


And I will note that canonically, Zaun's ability to threaten Piltover militarily ended up mostly being something of a paper tiger
They effectively rolled over Zaun in a few months once it actually came to war
And certainly, having Ambessa's legionnaires onside helped a lot with that, but that mostly made up for Jayce and Hextech production going missing

Fact of the matter is, Canon Zaun was not in a good state to pull off a revolution
The Chembarons control all the weapons and resources, but the Chembarons do not stand with the people of Zaun, they are in this for their own profit and gain, and are not going to willingly stand and fight through losses if things stop looking favorable
They can only barely even work with each other, and fall apart the second a power vacuum opens up
Meanwhile, the post-Silco community of Zaun itself is fractured and have little to no resources, with many of them sick or starving or ruined by Shimmer addiction

There also don't seem to be a lot of Chemtanks, which does make sense given how limited Zaun's production facilities are, how limited its scientists and educated expertise is, and how new a field Shimmer enhancement is
If Renni didn't outright use up all that they had left when she hit the memorial, then whatever was left was apparently taken out by the four man strike team or infighting, because we do not see them again

And the Kirammans hold the literal key to Zaun's ventilation, allowing Piltover to drop in squads in the middle of Zaun wherever they want at moment's notice
Namely right in the middle of the big factories that Zaun needs to fuel its shaky war engine
Alongside giant clouds of poisonous gas
Which allowed a mere four man hit squad armed with a handful of Hextech weapons to cripple all remaining Shimmer production and catch the last two Chembarons in the space of a music montage
At which point, Zaun vs Piltover really was just reduced to a riot mob vs an actual military occupation, with predictable results


Granted that's canon
Things could go wildly off the rails here
 
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And the Kirammans hold the literal key to Zaun's ventilation, allowing Piltover to drop in squads in the middle of Zaun wherever they want at moment's notice
Namely right in the middle of the big factories that Zaun needs to fuel its shaky war engine

...so what I'm hearing is we should endeavor to set things for a "Phantom Thief"-esque plotline wherein Vi has a tumultuous years long antagonistic "slap slap kiss" dynamic with Caitlyn that culminates in somehow stealing the keys to the vents.

Okay more seriously, I generally agree with the ghist of the post that realistically Zaun does seem reliant on Piltoverians growing a conscious as part of any realistic improvements. With regards to "Zaunite nationalism" gonna say this generally since I think several people have responded about how sometimes shared pride in identity can be good, but I agree with the analysis (I think I even read it on here lmao) that Silco's brand is the type where he actively thinks it's good for Zaunites to die and suffer for the general idea of "Zaunite glory" versus a mindset that sees a state as an entity meant to overall enrich the lives of people in the state.
 
[X][Piltover]: If he Thinks it's My Chance for a Better Life, I Should Try
-[X] spend one willpower
[X] [Downtime]: Keeping Working on her Mouser Bombs Alone
 
...so what I'm hearing is we should endeavor to set things for a "Phantom Thief"-esque plotline wherein Vi has a tumultuous years long antagonistic "slap slap kiss" dynamic with Caitlyn that culminates in somehow stealing the keys to the vents.

Okay more seriously, I generally agree with the ghist of the post that realistically Zaun does seem reliant on Piltoverians growing a conscious as part of any realistic improvements. With regards to "Zaunite nationalism" gonna say this generally since I think several people have responded about how sometimes shared pride in identity can be good, but I agree with the analysis (I think I even read it on here lmao) that Silco's brand is the type where he actively thinks it's good for Zaunites to die and suffer for the general idea of "Zaunite glory" versus a mindset that sees a state as an entity meant to overall enrich the lives of people in the state.

"Nationalism" in the context of a revolution to break away from an oppressive occupier is kind of a tricky word.

Taken on it's own, Political nationalism is usually about dedication to a particular Ethnic/Cultural identity, and that people who fall under that identity should consider the strength and supremacy of that Identity to be their primary political operating principle. It's the belief that people are intrinsically divided into block-groups that compete with one another, and you should be invested in making sure your group, your nation, "wins". (It should be noted that 'nation' in political science circles often means a specific ethnic/cultural group rather than a state, as is the case in common parlance. For example, there are native american nations within the state of Canada)

It's very, very stupid. Nations are not intrinsic, they are made, changed, and undone by people. Borders are lines on a map created by human decisions, not the inherent nature of the universe. We are all just passengers on spaceship earth (or Runeterra, as the case may be).

However, within the specific context of an oppressive regime holding down a population (Such as the Piltover/Zaun dynamic) "Nationalism" of a different, more ... general kind often arises to support the creation of a seperate state for that oppresed population so that they can govern themselves without the interference of their oppresors.

Its really a trick of language more than anything.

The problem is made more complicated, however, because, by circumstance, the two often end up intertwining in complex ways. For example, an oppressed population is often oppressed on the basis of their ethnic/cultural identity, and so a person of that group who wants to stop being oppressed will often then see their oppression through the lens of ethnic/cultural identity, and therefore turn towards the first, bad kind of nationalism as well as the second. A person who already believes in the first kind of nationalism, will be naturally inclined to support the second as a matter of course, you cant "win" the competition of nations if your are subject to another nation.

In our case, I think we should be looking at Zaunite nationalism and Silco primarily through the second, liberatory separatism lens. Oppression, abuse, and exploitation are obviously the primary drivers of rebellious discontent against the Piltoverian government, Zaunites are angry that they are sick, starving, impoverished, and abused by the enforcers, not because like ... Piltover has a different religious/cultural belief or something. I doubt there's even much in the way of a traditional "national" identity to build the first kind of nationalism off of, as both Piltover and Zaun seem to be equally diverse in terms of species and population.

Silco might be layering in a little bit of the first kind based on a relatively new constructed Identity of what it means to Zaunite, with his "Sons and daughters of Zaun" stuff (One imagines this Identity has much to do with becoming stronger through suffered hardship), but it's pretty obvious even then that his Primary concerns are material, forced labour, Enforcer abuse, complete lack of representation in government, etc.
 
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Idk about the idea that the rest of the Council folded because of gunboat diplomacy
None of them voiced concerns over Piltover not being able to take Zaun on in a fight, if only because none of them were even aware of the Chemtanks
Jayce was the first to encounter them, and he didn't bring it up at the Council when he brought forward the peace deal

We don't see what their pre-attack concerns were. We also don't know what Jayce told them. All we see is an immediate reaction of outrage at Jayce's suggestion and then later a reluctant agreement to it.

After the attack in the memorial Caitlyn doesn't think they can take Zaun without hextech so I think it was closer than you're implying, but also even if you're the weaker party, strength can force the other party to escalate beyond what they're willing to. At the bridge the enforcers could stop us with a level of violence and risk that was acceptable to the council. At the end of season 1, even though Jayce thought Piltover would win a war he thought it would require more bloodshed than he was comfortable with. While changeover in the council certainly contributed to that, I don't think we can ignore that it was end of season 1 Zaun that was in a position to negotiate, whereas beginning of season 1 Zaun was demonstrably not. As Silco puts it, Zaun doesn't need total victory - it just has to scare topside.

Silco's brand is the type where he actively thinks it's good for Zaunites to die and suffer for the general idea of "Zaunite glory" versus a mindset that sees a state as an entity meant to overall enrich the lives of people in the state.

I'm unsure where you get this impression from. Silco never pushes anything like this, and he is clearly willing to negotiate (despite Vi's assumption otherwise). He never tries to sacrifice his own dudes or anything, and is at worst callous over Renni's son's death after she attempts to coup him. He talks about the need for respect but he never discusses glory. If anything I think his moral failings ran the other way - despite basically running Zaun for 6-7 years, Piltover is unaware that he even wants independence, and the speed at which they fold indicates that he should have been pushing for it sooner. Also, his willingness to sell out other Zaunites to Piltover (first Vander's kids, then the firelights) is problematic.

The argument for Zaunite nationalism isn't that shared pride in identity can be a good thing, it's that political separation is a necessary precondition for any fair negotiation between Piltover and Zaun. Otherwise, everything is dependent upon the fickle goodwill of the same political body and institutions which murdered our parents. This might be an appealing path - it's more peaceful and involves playing nicer with characters people like. It might even work somewhat. I could certainly see Cassandra or Heinerdinger interacting with a cute little girl like Powder and deciding that maybe the people of the Undercity do deserve to breath. But the problem's aren't fixed until they don't get to decide that at all.
 
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I think Vander is straight up wrong in his philosophy. It's understandable, and he's got baggage and trauma to, but refusing to fight Piltover is condemning Vi, Mylo, Claggor, and every other Zaunite kid to the same intolerable conditions. Somebody has to pay the price in blood at some point.

I definitely see post-Revolution Vander as a character driven by everything he's lost. He fought the good fight for a noble cause, and he has to show for it almost all his friends dead and him stuck raising their orphaned children. The idea of sending those kids to die fighting on the same barricades their parents died on is a bridge too far for him. Plus he's doubtlessly stewing in a ton of survivor's guilt. If they ever made a musical prequel to Arcane covering the events of the first Zaunite Rebellion, This Would be Vander's Song.

"Nationalism" in the context of a revolution to break away from an oppressive occupier is kind of a tricky word.

Taken on it's own, Political nationalism is usually about dedication to a particular Ethnic/Cultural identity, and that people who fall under that identity should consider the strength and supremacy of that Identity to be their primary political operating principle. It's the belief that people are intrinsically divided into block-groups that compete with one another, and you should be invested in making sure your group, your nation, "wins". (It should be noted that 'nation' in political science circles often means a specific ethnic/cultural group rather than a state, as is the case in common parlance. For example, there are native american nations within the state of Canada)

It's very, very stupid. Nations are not intrinsic, they are made, changed, and undone by people. Borders are lines on a map created by human decisions, not the inherent nature of the universe. We are all just passengers on spaceship earth (or Runeterra, as the case may be).

However, within the specific context of an oppressive regime holding down a population (Such as the Piltover/Zaun dynamic) "Nationalism" of a different, more ... general kind often arises to support the creation of a seperate state for that oppresed population so that they can govern themselves without the interference of their oppresors.

Its really a trick of language more than anything.

The problem is made more complicated, however, because, by circumstance, the two often end up intertwining in complex ways. For example, an oppressed population is often oppressed on the basis of their ethnic/cultural identity, and so a person of that group who wants to stop being oppressed will often then see their oppression through the lens of ethnic/cultural identity, and therefore turn towards the first, bad kind of nationalism as well as the second. A person who already believes in the first kind of nationalism, will be naturally inclined to support the second as a matter of course, you cant "win" the competition of nations if your are subject to another nation.

In our case, I think we should be looking at Zaunite nationalism and Silco primarily through the second, liberatory separatism lens. Oppression, abuse, and exploitation are obviously the primary drivers of rebellious discontent against the Piltoverian government, Zaunites are angry that they are sick, starving, impoverished, and abused by the enforcers, not because like ... Piltover has a different religious/cultural belief or something. I doubt there's even much in the way of a traditional "national" identity to build the first kind of nationalism off of, as both Piltover and Zaun seem to be equally diverse in terms of species and population.

Silco might be layering in a little bit of the first kind based on a relatively new constructed Identity of what it means to Zaunite, with his "Sons and daughters of Zaun" stuff (One imagines this Identity has much to do with becoming stronger through suffered hardship), but it's pretty obvious even then that his Primary concerns are material, forced labour, Enforcer abuse, complete lack of representation in government, etc.

Considering how Zaun is fractured between different gangs and chembarons, I also imagine a fair bit of Silco's push for Zaunite nationalism is really just about trying to create and hold together his very shaky coalition. As comes up a couple of times, Zaun's fight with Piltover is lopsided even if Zaun works together, but it's utterly hopeless if they're still fighting amongst themselves. Zaun needs solidarity if they ever want to improve their position against Piltover, and trying to create a shared Zaunite identity and common struggle was a good way to build that.
 
Considering how Zaun is fractured between different gangs and chembarons, I also imagine a fair bit of Silco's push for Zaunite nationalism is really just about trying to create and hold together his very shaky coalition. As comes up a couple of times, Zaun's fight with Piltover is lopsided even if Zaun works together, but it's utterly hopeless if they're still fighting amongst themselves. Zaun needs solidarity if they ever want to improve their position against Piltover, and trying to create a shared Zaunite identity and common struggle was a good way to build that.
the fact that the chem barons went right to lets just give pitover what they want and they will leave us alone once silco died
 
I definitely see post-Revolution Vander as a character driven by everything he's lost. He fought the good fight for a noble cause, and he has to show for it almost all his friends dead and him stuck raising their orphaned children. The idea of sending those kids to die fighting on the same barricades their parents died on is a bridge too far for him. Plus he's doubtlessly stewing in a ton of survivor's guilt. If they ever made a musical prequel to Arcane covering the events of the first Zaunite Rebellion, This Would be Vander's Song.
Damnn pulling out a Les Misérables song, that hits hard especially the "Oh my friends, my friends, don't ask me, what your sacrifice was for!"
 
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