Okay so book Stannis:

Book Stannis is a stick in the mud. The man is just unpleasant to be around. He forbids laughter at a party (???), he's incredibly bossy, has a huge chip on his shoulder being the middle son that nobody likes and is an utter misogynist. As in, he dislikes women and the concept of women.

He is, without a doubt, the best man to be king.

For all his flaws, he is honorable in the sense of he was totally cool with Renly being subordinate and letting Robb be Warden of the North. I've mentioned he's a misogynist, but somehow translates to being a not terrible person to most women he meets (even though there's no love between him and his wife). He actually punishes his soldiers for rape. During the siege of Storm's End, he kept his men safe and ate rats and shoe leather with them. His men are utterly loyal to him and he to them.

He's also bar none the best general in the series still living (at least until the next book kills him probably). Despite having no naval experience he was able to crush the Ironborn during the Ironborn rebellion. He was the only general in history to come close to capturing King's Landing. Despite having his army being killed off by the winter, he's still planned steps ahead and likely knows the Karstarks are about to betray him.

And that's why people like Stannis the Mannis and utterly despise DnD's writing of him in the show. I can't even blame Stephen Dillane, it's not his fault he has to do what the writers say.

So yeah, he's honorable. A flawed kind of honorable, but very much still honorable.
 
Has book Stannis burnt his daughter at the stake
That doesn't really enter into "honorable", but whatever.

He hasn't in the books, no. But will he do so in the future?

Short answer? Probably.

Longer answer, he might, but if he does, it will probably be not only better executed, but for better reasons than having better weather like some cheap Agamemnon. In fact, the fifth book has a scene where Stannis explicitely rejects burnings to resolve an exact same problem as in the show:
ADWD The King's Price said:
"A sacrifice will prove our faith still burns true, Sire," Clayton Suggs had told the king. And Godry the Giantslayer said, "The old gods of the north have sent this storm upon us. Only R'hllor can end it. We must give him an unbeliever."

"Half my army is made up of unbelievers," Stannis had replied. "I will have no burnings. Pray harder."
But the show is no stranger to giving characters diametrically opposed characterization (hello Ellaria).

In any case, what you're really asking is whether he would go so far as to burn his own daugther for the sake of his ambition. Therein lies the problem: show!Stannis is shown as more ambitious and driven by his desires than book!Stannis, who wants the throne out of duty since he is legitimately next in the line of succession after Robert. This poses problem because now you have two versions of the same character who would do the same actions for completely different reasons.

Once his defeat at the Blackwater starts setting book!Stannis straight and back on the path of duty to the kingdom (as opposed to duty to his own rights), the question becomes what he will do for that duty. Book!Stannis' arc is no longer about his personal ambitions, but, as I quoted to Volant earlier, about saving the kingdom/world.

We explicitly see him reject the idea of burning Edric Storm (whose role Gendry took) for a vague promise of a stone dragon:
ASOS Davos IV said:
"Give me the boy, Your Grace. It is the surer way. The better way. Give me the boy and I shall wake the stone dragon."

"I have told you, no."

"He is only one baseborn boy, against all the boys in Westeros, and all the girls as well. Against all the children that might ever be born, in all the kingdoms of the world."

"The boy is innocent."

"The boy defiled your marriage bed, else you would surely have sons of your own. He shamed you."

"Robert did that. Not the boy. My daughter has grown fond of him. And he is mine own blood."
When he eventually relents, he is driven by desperation and it's not easy for him and he hates it, but if it even has the remote chance of saving the realm...
ASOS Davos V said:
"Edric -"

" - is one boy! He may be the best boy who ever drew breath and it would not matter. My duty is to the realm." He swept his hand across the Painted Table. "How many boys live in Westeros? How many girls? How many men, how many women? The darkness will devour them all, she says. The night that never ends. She talks of prophecies . . . a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone . . . she speaks of signs and swears they point to me. I never asked for this, no more than I asked to be king. Yet dare I disregard her?" He ground his teeth. "We do not choose our destinies. Yet we must . . . we must do our duty, no? Great or small, we must do our duty. [...]"

"Your Grace," said Davos, "the cost . . ."

"I know the cost! Last night, gazing into that hearth, I saw things in the flames as well. I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning… burning, Davos. His own crown consumed his flesh and turned him into ash. Do you think I need Melisandre to tell me what that means? Or you?" The king moved, so his shadow fell upon King's Landing. "If Joffrey should die . . .what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?"

"Everything," said Davos, softly.
But it's Davos VI of ASoS that has the money quote for the meaning of Stannis' story, and its central dilemma:
ASOS Davos VI said:
"I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty…if I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark…Sacrifice…is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice."
I believe this is exactly the position Stannis will ultimately be convinced that he's in, sometime either very late in TWoW or early in ADoS, where the stakes are that high enough to warrant a sacrifice. It's established that his personal ambitions are not enough for him to burn any child, let alone his own. But duty to the realm…

And make no mistake, it would be a hard sacrifice because Stannis does seen to love or at least care his daughter:
ASOS Davos IV said:
"Do smugglers have another name for it? I made him Hand, and he would have sold my rights for a bowl of pease porridge. He would even have given them Shireen. Mine only child, he would have wed to a bastard born of incest." The king's voice was thick with anger.
TWOW Theon I said:
The knight hesitated. "Your Grace, if you are dead — "

" — you will avenge my death, and seat my daughter on the Iron Throne. Or die in the attempt."

By contrast, the only point the showrunners had in writing Stannis was this man is evil. That's it. Nothing saying anything about Stannis' values. Nothing making the viewer realise how tough his decisions are and how much killing Shireen will destroy him. Nothing making the viewer question whether the ends justify the means and ask themselves, what is one child against the kingdom?

Nope, just evul fundamentalists.
 
Stannis would be a terrible king, he'd be uncompromising, stubborn and would willingly behead anyone who goes against him as a traitor.

Remember, he's not true steel. Just crude iron. He'll break before he bends.
 
Stannis would be a terrible king, he'd be uncompromising, stubborn and would willingly behead anyone who goes against him as a traitor.

Remember, he's not true steel. Just crude iron. He'll break before he bends.

Pre-Blackwater, I would agree. Post-Blackwater? This is the same man who allows the Free Folk settling land, giants in the army, negotiating with Northern lords like the ones who help him guide to Winterfell, willingness NOT to burn everyone alive ("Half my army is made up of unbelievers. I will have no burnings. Pray harder."), borrowing money from the Bank of Braavos and remarkable flexibility in changing tactics to suit the situation.

He bends and bends well. Granted he'll die before becoming king but he'll die fighting off either the Boltons or the Undead.
 
Okay so book Stannis:

Book Stannis is a stick in the mud. The man is just unpleasant to be around. He forbids laughter at a party (???), he's incredibly bossy, has a huge chip on his shoulder being the middle son that nobody likes and is an utter misogynist. As in, he dislikes women and the concept of women.

He is, without a doubt, the best man to be king.

For all his flaws, he is honorable in the sense of he was totally cool with Renly being subordinate and letting Robb be Warden of the North. I've mentioned he's a misogynist, but somehow translates to being a not terrible person to most women he meets (even though there's no love between him and his wife). He actually punishes his soldiers for rape. During the siege of Storm's End, he kept his men safe and ate rats and shoe leather with them. His men are utterly loyal to him and he to them.

He's also bar none the best general in the series still living (at least until the next book kills him probably). Despite having no naval experience he was able to crush the Ironborn during the Ironborn rebellion. He was the only general in history to come close to capturing King's Landing. Despite having his army being killed off by the winter, he's still planned steps ahead and likely knows the Karstarks are about to betray him.

And that's why people like Stannis the Mannis and utterly despise DnD's writing of him in the show. I can't even blame Stephen Dillane, it's not his fault he has to do what the writers say.

So yeah, he's honorable. A flawed kind of honorable, but very much still honorable.
Correction: Stannis does not dislike women, he is uncomfortable next to women.

He makes some comments that may come off as misogynist, but on the whole they are tame compared to the likes of Randyl Tarly.
Has book Stannis burnt his daughter at the stake
No. He has, in fact, ordered Justin Massey (a knight in his service) to use the money from the Iron Bank to hire a sellsword army and seat her on the throne even if Stannis should die in the battle for Winterfell.
I don't think he will in the books. I think Selyse and Melisandre will do it behind his back and if he is still alive and finds out. Stannis kills them in a grief induced rage.
Yeah, that's the other part that makes it difficult to see Stannis burning Shireen in the books.

Unlike the show, book Stannis left Shireen and his wife in Castle Black with several dozen knights and Melisandre. We do not get to see his battle with Ramsay and Roose, but we see the terrible conditions, the starvation and blizzard. We see Jon recieve a letter from Ramsay (known as the Pink Letter due to it being sealed in what appears to be blood), telling him of Stannis's defeat and death. At this point, Shireen is still alive and well. Jon declares his intent to desert the Night's Watch and take whatever Wildlings who would follow him to make battle, but as soon as he leaves the hall he is stabbed by Bowen Marsh and the other Night's Watch officers. Thorne is not there, and the treason is much better handled as we see Jon for several chapters fucking up his relationship with his officers, letting his idealism get in the way and ignoring practical advice because it does not match his views (the Hardhome expedition is a disaster, costing the NW their few remaining ships and saving no Wildlings, for example). This is the end of our POV in Castle Black.

As such, the only things we can tell about the future are based on fan theories and some deduction: Stannis is presumed dead. Jon is dead or dying. Ramsay is presumed in control of Winterfell. Clearly, this can't be how it ends.

Stannis was assumed by many to kill Shireen, as a logical conclusion to his story arc, with the theme of sacrifice and misinterperted prophecies being strong motifs of his arc. The problem, then, is how can he possibly kill Shireen when he is hundreds of miles away, locked in mortal combat against a foe in a heavily fortified position and with a blizzard around him, without Melsiandre to do anything about the weather? Stannis must either win, or lose but survive. If he wins, he has no need to kill Shireen yet, but even if he loses, it will take time for him to reach Castle Black. His travel from Castle Black to Winterfell was not in a straight line, due to recruiting the Mountain Clans, but even if he took a direct path immidietly it would still be more than a month. Ramsay's letter was written after he supposedly killed Stannis at the end of a 7-day battle. From what we see, there's little reason to believe any battle between the sides could drag that long, but since it arrived by raven, it would have reached way faster than Stannis could arrive through a blizzard.

The situation at the Wall, meanwhile, will be chaos. Val, the sister of Mance Rayder's wife, is a prominent leader of the Wildlings (Stannis mistakenly treats her as a "Wildling princess", which Jon keeps pointing out is wrong, but despite Martin's best efforts to portray that, that's pretty much how the Wildlings treat her). She has explicitly voiced her belief that Shireen should be killed and burned, for the Wildlings fear Greyscale even in children (measters, who have far more experience and reliable information claim Greyscale is no longer dangerous in children who survive it, but ignorant Wildlings think otherwise. Given the wank they and First Men in general recieve, it would not surprise me if Shireen indeed does become infectious for some bizzare reason, but the Wildlings believe she should die regardless). The Wildlings are by far the most powerful group in Castle Black at the time, and their loyalty to Jon is such that many fans expect them to slaughter the traitors among the Night's Watch, and then turn on Selyse and Stannis's few remaining knights, killing Shireen in the process.

The other option is of course for Melisandre to sacrifice Shireen to resurrect Stannis or Jon (with the assumption that Jon will be revived regardless). Melisandre was surprised by the news of Stannis's defeat, as she could not see him in her flames since leaving Castle Black. Whenever she asked the flames to show her Rh'llor's champion, all she could see was "Snow" (capital S in original text, implying she saw Jon rather than the literal blizzard). In either case, Stannis will have no control over what happens to Shireen.

As such, even if Martin intended for Stannis to kill Shireen originally, at the current state of the books it is impossible. Even if Stannis wins the Battle of Ice (both the battle of Winterfell and the battle around Meereen happen at the same time, nicknamed the Battle of Ice and Battle of Fire), as many fans theories expect (based on some clues in the latest gift chapter of The Winds of Winter, Stannis is aware of the Karstarks betraying him and it hints he is planning his own version of the Battle on the Ice - Wikipedia), he would need to arrive back in Castle Black before Shireen is killed by either Wildlings or Melisandre. Due to clear issues of timeline, it is extremely doubtful she would survive long enough for him to arrive and sacrifice her.
 
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Stannis would be a terrible king, he'd be uncompromising, stubborn and would willingly behead anyone who goes against him as a traitor.

Remember, he's not true steel. Just crude iron. He'll break before he bends.
You do realize that in that comparison Robert was the one called true steel. Look how that turned out. Beyond that someone incorruptible and harsh, but fair and just is what the 7 kingdoms need after the generations of misrule and rot.
 
Stannis would be a terrible king, he'd be uncompromising, stubborn and would willingly behead anyone who goes against him as a traitor.

Remember, he's not true steel. Just crude iron. He'll break before he bends.
Didn't Stannis pardon those lords who followed Renly when they came over to his side following Renly's death. He didn't behead them for being traitors.
 
Stannis would be a terrible king, he'd be uncompromising, stubborn and would willingly behead anyone who goes against him as a traitor.

Remember, he's not true steel. Just crude iron. He'll break before he bends.
Would an uncompromising king forgive the storm lords who went for Renly originally? Would he take counsel from people like Davos and Jon if he were stubborn?

This needs to be shared more: Iron Bends: The Surprising Flexibility of Stannis Baratheon
 
You do realize that in that comparison Robert was the one called true steel. Look how that turned out. Beyond that someone incorruptible and harsh, but fair and just is what the 7 kingdoms need after the generations of misrule and rot.
Exactly. If I was a lord in Westeros. I'd back Stannis in the War of the Five Kings, as he'd be the King that Westeros needs and as you said, he's harsh but fair and a man who believes in justice. Plus he'd be a better rular than any of the kings who came before in the last few generations.
 
I don't even like Stannis and think he'd make for a pretty bad king, even as far as kings go, but holy shit did the television show assassinate his character harder than he assassinated Renly.
 
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Exactly. If I was a lord in Westeros. I'd back Stannis in the War of the Five Kings, as he'd be the King that Westeros needs and as you said, he's harsh but fair and a man who believes in justice. Plus he'd be a better rular than any of the kings who came before in the last few generations.
Who I like doesn't matter in the War of 5 kings , what matter is survival and getting out with as little possible fighting and as intact as possible.
If I was a noble in Westeros. I would look for something that doesn't get me killed, stay out of the war. So depending on circumstances , geographic position and period of time it depends who I will back. The decisive and overarching goal of my is to get out of the war with family intact and lands and people as close as intact as possible. Who to back as a king is irrelevant in the face of bigger concerns as survival.
Also make a way to leave Westeros for good for Summer Islands if all things go to hell.
 
King Bread is the one true king anyway:
ACOK Tyrion IX said:
"Feed us!" a woman shrieked. "Bread!" boomed a man behind her. "We want bread, bastard!" In a heartbeat, a thousand voices took up the chant. King Joffrey and King Robb and King Stannis were forgotten, and King Bread ruled alone. "Bread," they clamored. "Bread, bread!"
King Bread for the Iron Throne, accept no substitute.
I don't even like Stannis and think he'd make for a pretty bad king, even as far as kings go, but holy shit did the television show assassinate his character harder than he assassinated Renly.
Yeah, Clash!Stannis is really not someone I would see on the throne, but Dance!Stannis after his character development is much better. As Martin himself said:
So Spake Martin said:
And it is important that the individual books refer to the civil wars, but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis XI.
Anyway, back to the point, Stannis was always almost guaranteed to be misinterpreted since he is not a POV character (not that the show doesn't butcher even the POV characters, but that's another discussion). He is the one seen through other POVs: he's the king that Davos is loyal to, the man Cressen loves like a son, the guy that Melisandre projects her hopes on to, and he is the implacable authority figure that Catelyn, Jon, Asha, and Theon have to deal with. With such contrasting viewpoints, all biased for or against him, it is hard sometime to get a grasp of the character.

The fact that the show think of Stannis as someone who is so personally ambitious that he'd burn his heir because of a few snow flurries seems just a bit ridiculous when this is a character who in the books is in a much worse scrape and doesn't even consider burning a loyal mook. And then, adding insult to injury, Shireen's death did nothing. Stannis's army still lost, and lost horribly. Even Mel abandoned his cause before the end because…reasons. Then Brienne acted as a conveniently positioned sword when the show wanted to off Stannis, because it was her "life-long mission" (if by "life-long" they meant literally one scene before swearing an oath to Cat, and that the sword "Oathkeeper" was totally about keeping her Rainbow Guard vows), and that it's totally not a big deal at all that she would abandon potentially helping Sansa for revenge "duty". As said by the showrunners, Stannis "did the worst thing a person could possibly do in the world", so just in case we, the dumb audience, couldn't have reached that conclusion on our own, they made sure to be like "seeeeeee? It was a bad thing and EVERYONE is punishing him for it!"

Stannis's demise in season 5 was farcical, and he deserved better. People were literally rooting for the Boltons because they were made less asshole-like than Stannis. If that's not a perfect reflection of how they failed to successfully adapt his aDwD plot, I don't know what is.

(well, except that it was such an ill-thought decision that what happened to half of Stannis's army that just fucked off at the end of autumn in the heart of the North is apparently not worth telling)
 
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so i dont know if anybody has already linked this (and i cant check, short on time) but this video i think neatly encapsulates what i found realy disappointing about the season (biseds the drift from the books but ive made my peace and consider the show intirly separate from the books, its the only why i was able to even get to this point).

Has game of thrones lost its edge?
 
I can sum up some of my problems with GOT thus: the thing about A Song of Ice and Fire is that, though it's known for deconstructing a whole lot of fantasy fiction tropes, it also reconstructs a lot of them. The thing about Game of Thrones is that it only does that first bit.

So when Season 7 plays fantasy tropes straight instead of reconstructing them into familiar yet distinct, it becomes cliché
 
I can sum up some of my problems with GOT thus: the thing about A Song of Ice and Fire is that, though it's known for deconstructing a whole lot of fantasy fiction tropes, it also reconstructs a lot of them. The thing about Game of Thrones is that it only does that first bit.
Really? Cause it seems like it's done nothing but deconstruct shit from start to finish in the books.
 
Correction: Stannis does not dislike women, he is uncomfortable next to women.

He makes some comments that may come off as misogynist, but on the whole they are tame compared to the likes of Randyl Tarly.

No. He has, in fact, ordered Justin Massey (a knight in his service) to use the money from the Iron Bank to hire a sellsword army and seat her on the throne even if Stannis should die in the battle for Winterfell.

Yeah, that's the other part that makes it difficult to see Stannis burning Shireen in the books.

Unlike the show, book Stannis left Shireen and his wife in Castle Black with several dozen knights and Melisandre. We do not get to see his battle with Ramsay and Roose, but we see the terrible conditions, the starvation and blizzard. We see Jon recieve a letter from Ramsay (known as the Pink Letter due to it being sealed in what appears to be blood), telling him of Stannis's defeat and death. At this point, Shireen is still alive and well. Jon declares his intent to desert the Night's Watch and take whatever Wildlings who would follow him to make battle, but as soon as he leaves the hall he is stabbed by Bowen Marsh and the other Night's Watch officers. Thorne is not there, and the treason is much better handled as we see Jon for several chapters fucking up his relationship with his officers, letting his idealism get in the way and ignoring practical advice because it does not match his views (the Hardhome expedition is a disaster, costing the NW their few remaining ships and saving no Wildlings, for example). This is the end of our POV in Castle Black.

As such, the only things we can tell about the future are based on fan theories and some deduction: Stannis is presumed dead. Jon is dead or dying. Ramsay is presumed in control of Winterfell. Clearly, this can't be how it ends.

Stannis was assumed by many to kill Shireen, as a logical conclusion to his story arc, with the theme of sacrifice and misinterperted prophecies being strong motifs of his arc. The problem, then, is how can he possibly kill Shireen when he is hundreds of miles away, locked in mortal combat against a foe in a heavily fortified position and with a blizzard around him, without Melsiandre to do anything about the weather? Stannis must either win, or lose but survive. If he wins, he has no need to kill Shireen yet, but even if he loses, it will take time for him to reach Castle Black. His travel from Castle Black to Winterfell was not in a straight line, due to recruiting the Mountain Clans, but even if he took a direct path immidietly it would still be more than a month. Ramsay's letter was written after he supposedly killed Stannis at the end of a 7-day battle. From what we see, there's little reason to believe any battle between the sides could drag that long, but since it arrived by raven, it would have reached way faster than Stannis could arrive through a blizzard.

The situation at the Wall, meanwhile, will be chaos. Val, the sister of Mance Rayder's wife, is a prominent leader of the Wildlings (Stannis mistakenly treats her as a "Wildling princess", which Jon keeps pointing out is wrong, but despite Martin's best efforts to portray that, that's pretty much how the Wildlings treat her). She has explicitly voiced her belief that Shireen should be killed and burned, for the Wildlings fear Greyscale even in children (measters, who have far more experience and reliable information claim Greyscale is no longer dangerous in children who survive it, but ignorant Wildlings think otherwise. Given the wank they and First Men in general recieve, it would not surprise me if Shireen indeed does become infectious for some bizzare reason, but the Wildlings believe she should die regardless). The Wildlings are by far the most powerful group in Castle Black at the time, and their loyalty to Jon is such that many fans expect them to slaughter the traitors among the Night's Watch, and then turn on Selyse and Stannis's few remaining knights, killing Shireen in the process.

The other option is of course for Melisandre to sacrifice Shireen to resurrect Stannis or Jon (with the assumption that Jon will be revived regardless). Melisandre was surprised by the news of Stannis's defeat, as she could not see him in her flames since leaving Castle Black. Whenever she asked the flames to show her Rh'llor's champion, all she could see was "Snow" (capital S in original text, implying she saw Jon rather than the literal blizzard). In either case, Stannis will have no control over what happens to Shireen.

As such, even if Martin intended for Stannis to kill Shireen originally, at the current state of the books it is impossible. Even if Stannis wins the Battle of Ice (both the battle of Winterfell and the battle around Meereen happen at the same time, nicknamed the Battle of Ice and Battle of Fire), as many fans theories expect (based on some clues in the latest gift chapter of The Winds of Winter, Stannis is aware of the Karstarks betraying him and it hints he is planning his own version of the Battle on the Ice - Wikipedia), he would need to arrive back in Castle Black before Shireen is killed by either Wildlings or Melisandre. Due to clear issues of timeline, it is extremely doubtful she would survive long enough for him to arrive and sacrifice her.
The best thery iv seen is that he'll do it well besieged by the white walkers in winterfell, you know when there looks to be no hope and the odd literally could not be higher, it would then fale and stanes (the manns) would die still doing his doty for his country but whith the gilte of what he did not meaning anything, then dany can come and be asorahi whith her dragons ( besides I think this will happen in the last book not the next one).

Really? Cause it seems like it's done nothing but deconstruct shit from start to finish in the books.

No he has done plenty of reconstruction in the books, thoe I will give you that it will be most notable in the last two books.
 
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