Thats how it worked in PoC. Megaproject Mode has them taking actions to advance a megaproject, or to generate resources for a megaproject if they cannot take a megaproject action
The issue is we can't see our stats yet, so we don't know the costs
From Stone to the Stars
- Thread starter Redium
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
Thats how it worked in PoC. Megaproject Mode has them taking actions to advance a megaproject, or to generate resources for a megaproject if they cannot take a megaproject action
The issue is we can't see our stats yet, so we don't know the costs
- Location
- Italia
[ ] [Recall] No
[ ] [Value] Yes
[ ][Action] Expand Agriculture (Quinoa)
[ ][Action] Expand Hunting (Dogs)
[ ][Admin] The Hunt
[ ][Art] Study Travel
[ ][Tribute] War
[ ] [Value] Yes
[ ][Action] Expand Agriculture (Quinoa)
[ ][Action] Expand Hunting (Dogs)
[ ][Admin] The Hunt
[ ][Art] Study Travel
[ ][Tribute] War
Make them stop. Resume trade. Too far to conquer, too decentralized to destroy.
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I would like to restore peaceful relations and make steps towards reopening positive relations. I am sceptical of our ability to conqueror the Northlands.
Even then, simply ending the war and not having to worry about spending time and resource on fighting is an endgame in itself. We don't have to destroy the source of threat, just get rid of the threat they currently pose to us.
- Location
- USA
I mean, the issue is, how exactly do we force them to stop? They are rather different from the other foes we've faced in that they don't have fixed settlements we can assault. Plus they are nomads so for all we know we could just drive them away only for them to come back later. I agree that conquering them is likely long odds, especially with how mobile they are, but I'm not entirely sure what it would take to make them to stop that wouldn't also give us a chance to conquer them.
Yeah, I'm not sure how we will be able to regain peaceful relations without a diplo hero showing up to rectify the series of events that led us into this war.
I mean, even if we pull back they could always attack us later. Plus, this war is likely the only chance we will get to get rid of that debilitating belief.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Anyway, since it seems to be the way to do things, my full plan would just be this.
[ ] [Recall] No
[ ] [Value] Yes
[ ][Action] Expand Agriculture (Quinoa)
[ ][Action] Expand Hunting (Dogs)
[ ][Admin] The Hunt
[ ] [Art] Raise Temple (The Fingers)
[ ][Tribute] War
Move to locking in quinoa, get our next dog upgrade(which we are due by now), and have our people go to war. Next turn, we finish the hunt and build a temple in the fingers to memorialize either our success or perseverance.
Study travel is the LEAST of the art options we should take this turn. At least study fire might let us learn to spook the caribou with flame.
[ ] [Recall] No
[ ] [Value] Yes
[ ][Action] Expand Agriculture (Quinoa)
[ ][Action] Expand Hunting (Dogs)
[ ][Admin] The Hunt
[ ] [Art] Raise Temple (The Fingers)
[ ][Tribute] War
Move to locking in quinoa, get our next dog upgrade(which we are due by now), and have our people go to war. Next turn, we finish the hunt and build a temple in the fingers to memorialize either our success or perseverance.
Study travel is the LEAST of the art options we should take this turn. At least study fire might let us learn to spook the caribou with flame.
Cavalry or dogsleds are Travel.
Our own cavalry, sleds or seizing their holy sites. Nomads are subsistence. They can't sustain long wars unless they have room to move
- Pronouns
- He/Him
We have sleds, and currently have a penalty to cav research. Also, we have no ridable animals, a rather larger obstacle to getting cav.
Now we know it exists, we can try to trade for the tech and the animals when the war ends, but right now is not the time.
- Location
- USA
Considering our cavalry are likely to involve Orkers I highly doubt we will be getting any cavalry anytime soon. As for seizing their holy sites, well that will likely be a logistical hurdle for us, though thankfully we have the Peace Builders with us in this war, so we may as well finish this.
I'm still not entirely sure how exactly we are going to hamper their movement as their food sources are the herds of caribou and mastodons they follow. We can't exactly follow them, can we?
We do have Orkers but I doubt we will make them rideable anytime soon barring a massive crit, which would make this situation worth it.
- Location
- USA
God DAMMIT, you would think people would know better by now! We have never lost a war in our civilizations entire history for fucks sake.
We are almost never the aggressors, its always others that fuck with us and only then do we go MAXIMUM violence.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
And our new belief will debuff that crit.
- Location
- USA
I mean, I'm not entirely sure we can say what the belief makes it harder to research. Oh well, at least we get practice now on riding nomads, so that when the eventual plains people who've probably domesticated ancient horses come calling we know how to fight them.
Think in terms of economy. Nomads fighting us are losing food production per death. Our warriors don't cost much per death.
If we can locate one of their major herds they can be forced to capitulate.
Its easier than usual because we have an immediate need for mobility to fight them, and immediate samples of how it might be done.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
But what we don't have are ridable animals. No amount of immediate need will give us docile Orkers or trusting Caribou.
- Location
- USA
The problem is, as far as we know their southern settlement that was closest to us was only their summer retreat. I'm not entirely sure all of our warriors can continue to prosecute the war while the Northlanders move north to their other encampment, and thus keep up the pressure. Our Frost Scarred can only do so much.
I don't doubt that if we find their herds we can force them to capitulate the problem is locating them in the first place, which I'm not sure what action helps the most with that.
Would it be the travel action we use then for this? As I don't think we have a herd action or anything.
Correct. But BECAUSE of the debuff, making the initial idea breakthrough is best done while in conflict with a more mobile civilization. Necessity drives innovation here.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
What exactly are you hoping for? For us to develop the concept of cav now and somehow hold on to it long enough to get Orkers to a ridable state? Because that seems like a long shot.
Thats mostly due to thinking in terms of modern/medieval war.
In this conflict, remember the following elements:
-Our warriors are professionals, theirs are hunters. Thus, we can commit to a fight for far longer than they can afford to, and we can maintain this mobilization indefinitely. They cannot, every single hunter used in the fighting is costing them food production and they do not have food preservation. Their only source of food preservation is meat on the hoof.
-Their summer camp is actually essential. Its where they go to have children and generally expand their population. If they lose it, it's going to be very hard on them to lose their richer camp, so if they lack cultural values forcing them to keep fighting, they are likely to grudgingly capitulate at this point.
-The herds are actually only semi-domesticated, and follow predictable migratory routes. We have dogs chosen for intelligence, we can track these routes, though cornering them would be difficult, harassing them is possible.
-Their cavalry is not widespread. You can ride caribou, but only the very largest beasts(usually the top stag) are ridable by adult men, though its also likely that the Northerners are genetically disposed to smaller sizes due to the colder climate.
Basically, don't expect easy victory, but they CAN be squeezed to death.
Study Travel basically generates Travel related innovations, shaped by the present needs(how to chase highly mobile raiders) and inspirations(those people being on animal backs).
We can potentially get there with Hunt(Orkers) or Hunt(Prize Animals), but Hunting primarily makes food rather than innovations, so the chances are lower...also we need that megaproject because our area's Hunting is going to be wiped out soon by us, and the largest creatures other than our pet orkers already HAD been hunted out according to the previous turn.
Not that a second temple would be bad as an option. We do want a temple to 'cap' our Crystal Lake wonder. Its just expensive in food and manpower at a pinch time
Orker rodeo fits our values.
- Location
- USA
That's true, though even with attrition in play this will likely take a long time for us to accomplish our goals, especially if the decide to pull back and not fight.
It seems though that their smaller settlements are easily relocatable. I'm wondering if they could not just easily disperse at this point?
If they do capitulate to us, and we gain a chance to, should we attempt to assimilate them as well? Their cavalry seem useful, and I would like to see if they could domesticate those mastodon so that we could get some as well? If not, would vassalization be better? As I doubt that we could easily go back to the way we were before this as our relationship has irrevocably changed.
Do we know that for sure? I mean, considering the fact that the caribou are allowing them to ride them, it seems hard to believe they aren't domesticated.
I can only hope that our combination of hunting with dogs, and studying travel will avail us here in hunting them down.
It seems to me that their cavalry is likely a holy order of theirs.
At this rate, I think our options regarding them are going to be much different than before. I'm not entirely sure that we can forcefully repair our relationship with them, as after killing their High Shaman, and probably beating them in war, this is something that will likely last long into their cultural memory. Enough for me to think they won't ever truly forgive us.
True, that's why I chose it. I thought it would synergize well with the problems we are facing today.
I don't think those options would be that helpful.
As for our megaproject option, at this point I don't think we need to finish the Hunt right this moment, or that it's even possible to yet. Which is why I would rather diversify our food sources now, through getting quinoa locked in by next turn.
We've seen how much more prolific the other tribes are compared to us, especially the ones with heavy agriculture like the Peace Builders, South Lake, and the Tribe of the West. If we don't do something to catch up we might be left behind there.
I'd personally rather finish our hills first before we get more temples so that we can at least expand sooner rather than later.
Faster than you might think. Nomadic tribes are fragile(Nomads, as a concept are not). They're always only a few defeats away from starvation in a way that agricultural civilizations are not.
Pulling back is harder than it sounds. These are pre-Wheel nomads, most of the tribe walks along with the herds on their migratory paths. If they disperse their fixed camps they're going to lose a big chunk of their elders.
Assimilating them, depends on their population size, but vassal nomads happens fairly often. Don't usually last long though.
That said, we can go back to the way we were. Pre-writing nomads have memories like goldfish. Its hard to dedicate energy to the accurate preservation of stories and events when you spend so much time moving and getting food.
Semi-domesticated meaning they're used to people and allows humans near them, but the tribe follows the herds rather than the reverse. They could channel the herds locally but not change the direction.
This happens IRL for many nomadic societies. Cold weather grazers like caribou NEED to move around to maintain a large herd, so they move. Due to the limited fodder of their climate, the areas where they can graze are fairly regular, they're stuck moving in a predictable orbit between relatively rich sites. Its sort of a symbiosis because herds that allow human hunters to follow them lose less of their number to predation, as the humans will repel wolves and other predators.
As such, while they allow the humans to follow them, the humans can't choose where the herd goes as freely as they would as steppe or plains nomads.
Possibly. They shouldn't have full mobilization yet. Too early in the timeline.
Unless they pick up a new value or legacy from this(which is possible if they win or escape), they won't remember this in 6 generations.
Different models, I don't think agriculture locking in of quinoa is nearly as direly critical as the Hunt though. Based on last turn's information, we have maybe 2 turns left before we literally are forced to stop hunting for lack of anything to hunt.
They use different action slots. Temples are Art and Admin. Hills are Admin.
- Location
- USA
True, however right now it seems that they are avoiding battle with us right now. So while I would hope to end this conflict within this turn or the next turn, I'm not going to bet on it, especially if the Peace Builders have to pull back due to a crisis down south.
Have they not pulled back their fixed summer camp already? I mean, considering we've traded with them before, we should know where there summer camp is right? That's why I'm somewhat wondering if the picked up encampments that have been described are about the camps, or if they are about the main camp? That will probably make a big difference as they likely are on a timer then.
They don't seem to be prolific all things considered. But I am still somewhat torn on which decision will benefit us more. Assimilating them will likely give us caribou cavalry for woodland combat as well as their population size, which is a plus. However in order to maintain ivory we'd have to have a settlement up north to keep hunting the mastodons, at least until we domesticate them...somehow. Vassalizing them will probably just make it so that they do what they were doing before hand but now they pay things to us, hopefully allowing us to gain some of their technologies as well without having to go all the way up there.
That's true but at least for one generation they are going to remember the outrage that led them into this war. The more we are war with them, the less chance we have to do more productive things, like stomp of South Lake who are resurgent right now. The Mountain Clans also look ready to pop soon.
So how exactly are the caribou letting them ride them if they are only semi-domesticated then?
Somewhat curious if we could combine our knowledge with that of the Northlanders in order to give them an avenue for full domestication of the herds, like using Quinoa or other crops to feed the herds.
I doubt it, though I'm sure this war is costing them mightily as having that many hunters come south only to be wiped out by the Peace Builders ought to have hurt.
I mean by giving us that debilitating belief and defeating one of our caravans, they possibly don't see us a spirits or demons anymore and may well have developed a value this turn. We won't know until we find out I guess. The question is though, what do we do if they don't let things return to the status quo?
I mean, I agree that locking in the Hunt is critical, yet until we know the timetable for how dire it is, I'm not sure if we really need to complete it this turn. If @Redium can give me a better idea, then I would gladly switch over to your vote seeing as there are not too many differences as is.
Oh I know, it's just my preference for building things to be the hills compared to the temples for now.
We don't necessarily know where their major camps are. The typical way to trade with nomadic tribes is to wait at one of their seasonal watering holes, on the season where you know they'd be there.
Or for smaller trades, this involves wandering around until you literally run into one of them.
Tamed animals =/= Domesticated animals.
Tamed animals are individually broken to accept human control, and the bond is often individualized. See our early dogs period, where individual humans can live with and direct individual wolves that they raised from childhood, or use their knowledge of how wolves work to attract or repel a pack to a location.
Domesticated animals are born docile and dependent on human direction. They usually do poorly when introduced to the wild, as the lower aggression and dependence on regular foodstuffs are poor traits for survival, but they can go feral.
So basically, if the caribou allows ONLY a specific hunter to ride it, then its tamed. If the caribou's attitude to anyone climbing on its back is to let them, it's domesticated.
Depends on their climate. I don't know enough to make a definite statement.
Full mobilization in reference to the mobility of their tribe. Like, horse-nomads are characterized by basically their entire tribe being mounted or at least, in wagons, making them extremely mobile.
If they only have enough riding beasts for their elites, then while their elites are great raiders, their camps are slow moving walkers.
- Location
- USA
I mean, considering we've traded with them for generations, we should be able to narrow down where their general camp locations could be based on past encounters. At least I hope so, otherwise this may take awhile.
Good point. I guess we'll have to find out if they've simply tamed the caribou or domesticated them. Hoping for the latter, at least for our sake.
Ahhh gotcha. You're right, it does seem a little early for them for the entire tribe to be this mobile. I'm sure eventually we will be able to catch them, as their mobility cannot be that good, at least not with the numbers and methods we have available.
Sol Zagato
senseless brute
Yeah, that seems critical. How many more turns will go by before temples are available again? Maybe switch that out with the dog training in Veekie's plan.