From Stone to the Stars

We also want to remember that it's been explicitly stated that attacking anyone that we've traded with is a really really bad idea unless we have a really good reason for it, or else we're going to develop a reputation as double-dealing backstabbing jerks and basically ruin what pathetic diplomatic stand we have as is.

Well yeah.

Like I said before, the fact that we are either the leading or dominant trader in obsidian will give us a unique opportunity here to force the hand of the South Lake Tribe, specifically through reasons such as this:

During a Trend, a specific type of trade good becomes significantly more profitable than it would normally be. Trends are generally transitory, but during that time can be extremely powerful for whomever controls the source of the trending good. Leading traders get twice the normal profit. Dominant ones get three times the benefit. Based on the current economic type, trends boost diplomacy. After currency is invented, they will boost wealth. Factions wanting a Trend Good, but being unable to obtain them, for whatever reason, will suffer Stability damage.
Trigger: Trade good is in great demand by 1 Regional Power, 3 regular powers, OR 5 minor powers.
Effect: Leading traders get double profit, Dominant ones triple; Stability damage for recipient powers who can't obtain the trending good

We have a time limit at the moment, where right now we are at the head of a trend, that being the obsidian trade. By making sure that the South Lake Tribe cannot obtain our obsidian we will harm them internally through causing them to take stability damage.

At the moment we have to play a balancing act. Even if we cut off our trade missions going down river their way, they can likely send their own trade missions our way to trade whatever crops from the south they have to bolster our own burgeoning list of ever-growing technologies.

Through exploiting this:

In order to deal with an imbalance of trade, a Faction has entered an unorthodox trade arrangement. This arrangement involves trading technology or other valuable ideas in order to fulfill this demand. This trade may be severed at any time by the one offering technology, but there is often a reason why they are forced into this position. Retribution may be swift for breaking such agreements.
Effects: Unorthodox Trade Recipients gain 1 innovation roll each turn with technologies taken from the unorthodox trader's entire technology list
Trigger: Lose a war; trade imbalance; diplomatic action

We can likely gain a technological advantage through letting them come to us to trade, and then using that trade to take as much as we can from their tech list.

The balancing act we are playing is one where we need to know when we've achieved our goal, such as if we have enough technology, and when is the right time to cut them off from Obsidian. Remember when the Hundred Bands were strong, it was the South Lake Tribe that was seen as unremarkable compared to the Island Makers. The only reason they are trouncing the Island Makers is due to the Hundred Bands stalemating them, and the forest fire crippling them. The timing of our cutoff should be at a critical point for them. Likewise we must balance having them as our enemies with the Barrow Builders as well, who we've fought before on behalf of the Peace Seekers long ago. If we start a war we will need to make sure that it is both a swift one and an uninterrupted one.

Right now the question is not if we are going to war with South Lake but when. From the South Lake's behavior they are horrible neighbors and horrible trade partners, it would surprise me if their aggression led them to attacking us for withholding Obsidian to them. What we must ensure when we begin this war is that we have ample information as well as secure flanks against our neighbors. I would rather not the South Lake Tribe team up with the Barrow Builders for instance. If we play our cards right, no one could blame us for going to war with them if they attack first.

Our priorities in the short term are to keep our stability stable, with an emphasis on increasing it, on our defenses, our trade with the Northern Hinterlands to make that locked in, and finally to Study Fire, considering how many goodies the QM says are locked behind there.
 
[X] [Value] Yes
[X] [West] Finish the Hill (Megaproject: The Hill 4/4)
[X] [Moratorium] 12 hours
 
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Unnixmatalized corn is lacking in niacin, so if they're relying on that as their primary food then their population will likely be suffering from the pellagra illness something fierce. This is why hominy came into popularity!

You have a powerful alkaline solution right now: limewater. This particular disease isn't likely to become a huge threat to the People. Currently, diets are based on wild rice (10% daily intake of nicine/100 grams), meat, and a mix of nuts and berries. By the time you really start growing corn en-mass, you'll likely have figured out the trick to treat it with alkaline solutions first.

I like that Ordeal can be used by our own initiative, as opposed to what Trial By Fire would seem to imply.
I.e., the latter relies on a Fire to be trialed by.

Trial By Fire is called that purely because the name is thematically appropriate. It doesn't actually imply a sort of judicial trial by ordeal.

I here a yet in there. The question is, how would traders be seen as in our society at this point in time? In most classical and ancient cultures the merchant classes were eyed with disdain by both the nobility and the peasants as they simply made profits off of the fruits of others works. Would that be the same here?

Traders are mostly seen as people who go to new places and bring back cool stuff. If anything, the People in general are envious of them. Wondrous World means that getting to explore or travel is a huge plus and something everyone would like to do.

Considering all of the troubles the South seems to be giving us, I really want to oust them from the Hundred Isles and built a freaking wall or something from all of that clay. Does Arrow Lake know how to use the clay on their territory?

Nope. You are the first faction to figure out how to make proper fired bricks. Arrow Lake makes use of wattle-and-dab construction to some extent, but they don't really take advantage of the properties of clay.

So this is confirmation that we are indeed in North America. The Sugar Maple tree range is confined to North America, the corn just further confirms it as before the Columbian Exchange, corn was unknown to the old world.

This is does present an interesting question. If you are in Not!North America, how are you going to survive the Not!Old World's diseases and subsequent colonization?

I'm assuming this means that every year ordeals will now be undergone regularly?

What does that mean if our values fuse like in the above vote?

Yes, ordeals will become more regular.

Trial by Fire doesn't meaningfully change Undergo Ordeal as an action, other than by making it more powerful. It doesn't really exacerbate its weakness (that being it costs extra Stability when you lose some).

I wonder though, have we gained any new technologies to build this hill/mound? Such as tamped earth or full stonemasons?

Most of the technologies you'll get is administrative.

Interesting to see that the Peace Seekers and Barrow Builders still appear to be distinct groups rather than one absorbing the other. @Redium Is vassalage a thing yet?

Vassalage is not quite yet a thing. You need to develop more Hierarchy before that becomes possible.

The fact that they are hunting this far from their territory though is suspicious though.

It's not that far. From the Peace Seeker's camp, it would be like 2-3 days travel.

Quick question though, @Redium will completing the project also lead to a settlement being formed automatically on the hill or will that have to be a separate action?

Yes. (It will found a settlement.)

I remember there being a map for this story, but I can't find it anymore to see where the Megaproject could potentially be? Did it get accidentally removed, or was it removed for editing purposes?

The map is on Post #2. It will be edited fairly significantly, however. I'm going to have to redraw it since you guys have expanded quite a bit more east than I thought you would.

@Redium Is there any conscious effort we can do to shore up and build up our stability in terms of actions?

Generally? Annual Festival, high likelihood of +1 Stability. Undergo Ordeal is also a good bet (if risky). Flat Arrow Philosophy should give you some 'apply jackboots' options to increase Stability, but that's likely to cause problems with Legitimacy. Legitimacy tends to be your limiting factor. The only way to currently raise it is to get lucky with consecutive good climate rolls. You need to invest in more culture (Annual Festival) to develop the tools to boost Legitimacy.

We also want to remember that it's been explicitly stated that attacking anyone that we've traded with is a really really bad idea unless we have a really good reason for it, or else we're going to develop a reputation as double-dealing backstabbing jerks and basically ruin what pathetic diplomatic stand we have as is.

There's a sliding scale. If you just trade with someone and then attack them, it will cause problems. If you've traded for someone for 10 turns and then attack them, it won't be quite as bad. Best to break off trade relations first, or have a good Casus Belli, then.


@Everyone, do people know how to input a table into SV? I want to put on a trade table since you are a major trade civilization but I haven't figured out how to do that. I'm not sure about an update tonight. I'm not really feeling the flow and the map is going to take a tedious re-write. It's way too crammed right now.
 
@Everyone, do people know how to input a table into SV?
I don't think that's actually possible. Xenforo forums don't support tables, sadly.
This is does present an interesting question. If you are in Not!North America, how are you going to survive the Not!Old World's diseases and subsequent colonization?
Assimilate the Vikings that come knocking!

Their technological and cultural distinctiveness shall be added to our own! :mad:
 
This is does present an interesting question. If you are in Not!North America, how are you going to survive the Not!Old World's diseases and subsequent colonization?
Uhh.. We don't? The only way to do that is to make cities that are extremely unclean and get immune to a shitton of diseases that we get from such. If were in Not NA then we also don't have the biggest animals that benefited the OW, like Horses and cows amongst many others. NA doesn't even have Goats i don't think, thats SA.
Edit: Wait we do have goats in NA.
 
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Uhh.. We don't? The only way to do that is to make cities that are extremely unclean and get immune to a shitton of diseases that we get from such. If were in Not NA then we also don't have the biggest animals that benefited the OW, like Horses and cows amongst many others. NA doesn't even have Goats i don't think, thats SA.
Edit: Wait we do have goats in NA.
Goats and llamas.

Fuzzy wuzzy llamas and toe tapping goaty woaties.
 

The map is on Post #2. It will be edited fairly significantly, however. I'm going to have to redraw it since you guys have expanded quite a bit more east than I thought you would.
Huh, so it is. Unfortunately I can't seem to see the imgur thing on chrome, only on firefox. The only reason I can tell it's actually there on chrome is when I quote your message, and the code of it appears.

Edit - my ad block is blocking it for some reason.
 
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It's not like there's a lack of animals around for us to try to turn into beasts of burden, we just haven't done squat to domesticate anything other than our dogs.
Part of the problem is that many of these animals are not easily domesticated, the mammoths are dying out so are worthless and the orkers are probably useless for this as well.
 
Would we really have reason to expect them to die out if we domesticated them?

We'd be running a de facto breeding program at that point, wouldn't we?
The thing is that domestication requires many things, mammoths are not easy to do as they require a lot of food and are worthless without having many of them, Horses are better for it, Cows are better for it. As are Camels, but we have none of them.
 
This is does present an interesting question. If you are in Not!North America, how are you going to survive the Not!Old World's diseases and subsequent colonization?
Urbanize, open portal to nurgle. Develop own diseases.
@Everyone, do people know how to input a table into SV? I want to put on a trade table since you are a major trade civilization but I haven't figured out how to do that. I'm not sure about an update tonight. I'm not really feeling the flow and the map is going to take a tedious re-write. It's way too crammed right now.
I has a tutorial I posted thrice now!


Okay a primer
Code:
[xtable] [/xtable]

This is the basic table tag.It just wraps around your table code so that it will run

{tr} {/tr}

This is the table row tag. Everything between a pair of these goes on one table row.

{td} {/td}

This is the table divider tag. Each pair of these marks one cell inside a table row.

So you put it together
Code:
[xtable] 
{tr}{td}No.{/td} {td}Name{/td} {td}Desc{/td}{td}Blank{/td}{/tr}
{tr}{td}1{/td} {td}Yenyna{/td} {td}Bardic talent{/td}{/tr}
{tr}{td}2{/td} {td}Crow{/td} {td}Professional asshole{/td}{/tr}
[/xtable]
No. Name Desc Blank
1 Yenyna Bardic talent
2 Crow Professional asshole
 
Traders are mostly seen as people who go to new places and bring back cool stuff. If anything, the People in general are envious of them. Wondrous World means that getting to explore or travel is a huge plus and something everyone would like to do.

Glad to see we dodged that bullet due to our unique outlook on things. Especially considering the fact that I am not sure how I would categorize us. We seem to be a highly militant, yet also friendly if you get to know us, trade civilization.

I'm assuming though that traders will eventually become their own role/niche, especially if we have made some trade actions locked in?

Nope. You are the first faction to figure out how to make proper fired bricks. Arrow Lake makes use of wattle-and-dab construction to some extent, but they don't really take advantage of the properties of clay.

Good to know. Adding that to the pile of secrets which we will not reveal to others. Bricks are a huge upgrade over wooden walls. Their defensive value for us is immense. That does make me wonder however what the Island Maker's technologies are. If we are the masters of water, fire, and soon to be earth, what secrets do they have I wonder?

This is does present an interesting question. If you are in Not!North America, how are you going to survive the Not!Old World's diseases and subsequent colonization?

We'll have to probably urbanize, which we probably were planning to do anyway, and maybe try to start a kind of exchange of our own, albeit a limited one. We have canoes, and soon will have a port on the Great Bay, so it shouldn't be too far fetched if we became sea-faring, maybe develop the catamaran like canoes of the Polynesians.

Yes, ordeals will become more regular.

Trial by Fire doesn't meaningfully change Undergo Ordeal as an action, other than by making it more powerful. It doesn't really exacerbate its weakness (that being it costs extra Stability when you lose some).

So is this Undergo Ordeal Civilization wide or confined to a select group of people?

Most of the technologies you'll get is administrative.

I kind of figured that from the wording of the update. Yet still, the fact that the spine of the Hill is made of stone also suggested that we may gain some stoneworking as a technology as well.

Vassalage is not quite yet a thing. You need to develop more Hierarchy before that becomes possible.

That's interesting then. Why haven't the Barrow Builders assimilated the Peace Seekers then I wonder? Or is it instead that they already have and we just see a distinction?

Generally? Annual Festival, high likelihood of +1 Stability. Undergo Ordeal is also a good bet (if risky). Flat Arrow Philosophy should give you some 'apply jackboots' options to increase Stability, but that's likely to cause problems with Legitimacy. Legitimacy tends to be your limiting factor. The only way to currently raise it is to get lucky with consecutive good climate rolls. You need to invest in more culture (Annual Festival) to develop the tools to boost Legitimacy.

Yeah...we've skipped out on doing those festivals for a while. I think everyone would agree that our low stability is a problem and that we should fix that. I'd rather not take a risk with ordeals and jackboots.

There's a sliding scale. If you just trade with someone and then attack them, it will cause problems. If you've traded for someone for 10 turns and then attack them, it won't be quite as bad. Best to break off trade relations first, or have a good Casus Belli, then.

I think everyone is going to try for the latter. If we simply stop sending trade missions of our own however, and the South Lake Tribe sends traders to our settlement, will we have a conscious choice to reject them or possibly extort more stuff from them since they are the ones coming to us? That sounds like a good enough casus belli to me.

Uhh.. We don't? The only way to do that is to make cities that are extremely unclean and get immune to a shitton of diseases that we get from such. If were in Not NA then we also don't have the biggest animals that benefited the OW, like Horses and cows amongst many others. NA doesn't even have Goats i don't think, thats SA.
Edit: Wait we do have goats in NA.

Equus Ferus and other related extant horse species should still exist at this point in time. We'll likely have to find and domesticate them. They only really became extinct by the time of the reversing of the Last Glacial Maximum, and considering that Mammoths and whatever the hell the Orkers are, are still a thing, I think that if we try we should be able to find a related cousin or ancestor of the horse and domesticate them then. Also since we're in North America, who knows, maybe we could try domesticating Buffalo?
 
Also since we're in North America, who knows, maybe we could try domesticating Buffalo?
I don't its possible, theres a reason why it was never done in real life, to rambunctious and aggressive (i think thats the buffalo reason...).
But a species of horse... WE HAVE to find them, beasts of burdens are such a major part of civilization before industrialization.
 
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We can't breed that out of them the way we bred friendliness into our hounds?
Pure Buffalo are not domesticatable, very few animals in NA ARE. We can do it today because we forced the few that remained to breed with Cows (Which don't exist in North America right now)

We can't get Llamas either since the NA climate is not suitable for them
 
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If we have orkers (a fantastical beast) I don't see why draft animals are 100% out of the question to exist somewhere on the continent. I wasn't really seeing this world as a one-to-one copy of ours.
 
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I don't its possible, theres a reason why it was never done in real life, to rambunctious and aggressive (i think thats the buffalo reason...).
But a species of horse... WE HAVE to find them, beasts of burdens are such a major part of civilization before industrialization.

Well there goes that idea. Maybe once we figure out what an Orker is we can try to domesticate it?

Our only other viable options are to try to domesticate animals which are around in this time period but never made it past this era to the modern age.

At the moment however I think we are awhiles away from domesticating anything else as we don't really have many options where we are now. All we really can hope for is maybe someone else got lucky.
 
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