...I don't think you understand how ironic this statement is for me, considering my past arguments and discussions with @Oshha ... No offense to you of course Oshha.
Yea, agreed, maybe thats why i stopped trying to discuss a while ago? I mean i've been pretty silent in hindsight the last few votes compared to the beginning of the thread. @Redium is there anyway to have a Moratorium?
Yea, agreed, maybe thats why i stopped trying to discuss a while ago? I mean i've been pretty silent in hindsight the last few votes compared to the beginning of the thread. @Redium is there anyway to have a Moratorium?
...I don't think you understand how ironic this statement is for me, considering my past arguments and discussions with @Oshha ... No offense to you of course Oshha.
That may be why people aren't staying or discussing, they simply don't have the knowledge they feel is sufficient to reply, yet in this case I am still scratching my head wondering how people could cite for this.
This wasn't an issue if complex tactics or Stone Age knowledge but one of empathy, putting yourselves in the shoes of another.
I've already said my piece on this issue. It's instances like this that make me not want to try anymore.
It is is less that and more I personally find it hard to care about small stone age tribes because they are too fragile and vulnerable to a couple of bad events crippling them or wiping them out. Once we get a handful of villages and we are more of nation than a single-village tribe, I will start caring more because our civ won't be so vulnerable.
It is is less that and more I personally find it hard to care about small stone age tribes because they are too fragile and vulnerable to a couple of bad events crippling them or wiping them out. Once we get a handful of villages and we are more of nation than a single-village tribe, I will start caring more because our civ won't be so vulnerable.
Personally speaking I find it somewhat easier here compared to the original PoC due to the fact that narrative is more important.
What we are doing right now is important because it will directly guide our development into a fully fledged civilization. The choices we make now and that we just made has an impact, not only on the immediate but also on the long term. This is the second time we've tried to integrate a former enemy and this one seems just as likely to end in violence like the first did. I'd rather not try for a third.
Then again maybe I'll just take a break and come back later when things like this don't happen, it's frustrating when your effort is wasted as can be seen in the poll:
Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Apr 2, 2018 at 5:18 PM, finished with 79 posts and 32 votes.
[X] [Refugees] "Embrace them as Brothers and Sisters. Divide them among the People's settlements." (-1 Stability)
Considering the fact that the QM even later informed us of a better way to integrate the Hundred Bands, fat chance of this going well now, leads me to believe that absolutely no one reads discussion or even the word of Qm save for updates.
I would have switched from exploration to the ordeal option (not that it would do much good), but pretty much all the discussion surrounding that happened in a period between when I had to get sleep for work and getting off work the subsequent day where I really wouldn't have had time to do any kind of vote change.
I would have switched from exploration to the ordeal option (not that it would do much good), but pretty much all the discussion surrounding that happened in a period between when I had to get sleep for work and getting off work the subsequent day where I really wouldn't have had time to do any kind of vote change.
[X] [Refugees] "Embrace them as Brothers and Sisters. Divide them among the People's settlements." (-1 Stability)
[X] [Settlement] New friends? (Trade: South Lake)
As he finally aged to the point where the sacred garb became heavy, all Kaspar could feel was that he'd worn it too much. Every few days, there would be a dispute between the remnants of the Hundred Bands and that of the People. There had been initial friction, but Kaspar had managed to mostly paper that over. Everyone from the raid that nearly destroyed the Fingers was dead. There were stories of the horrors of that night, but it was distant enough that the hurts there could be soothed. The raids in between that and the destruction of the Hundred Bands were primarily between warriors.
Such people were usually the ones most prone to and adept at violence, but there was a certain impartiality to the warrior's life. Everyone knew it was kill-or-be-killed. There were wounds there, petty revenges sworn over the bodies of the beloved dead, but those were wounds that could be soothed. The People slew beasts all the time and there was no malice there, just a need for the People and due respect for the beasts.
Where the union really started to fray, was with the traders. An informal group, they were all deeply trusted by Kaspar, and bore a mix of skills from serpent's tongues to strong arms and strong backs. They were a close knit band, every one displaying the teamwork that made the Brother Wolf so fearsome.
He had asked them to go south, and see if an accord with South Lake could be struck. They succeeded, but it was apparently a harrowing experience. When the first appeared over the horizon, they had been greeted at arrow and spear point. When they had called out in the language of the Hundred Bands, the only one that the People could possibly share with South Lake, violence nearly erupted. It was only some fast talking that calmed things down enough for everyone to speak.
Apparently, greeting South Lake in the 'slave tongue' had made them think that the People's traders were the precursor to an invasion! Reassurances were quickly offered, and trade goods shown. Most of the People's goods were looked at and even the most surly among South Lake could admit that they were valuable goods, but they were not useful. Gems and ivory were set aside; the only things that they were interested in were obsidian and sugar.
In return, they offered lapius luzili. They said that it was a rare and beautiful good, suitable for making wondrous blue pigments. It was something that they had managed to acquire from an intermediary that traded it over land from a distant place. They had other pigments as well, ochre, that they offered, but it was clear the lapius luzili was the main prize they had.
None of the traders could quite manage to keep to frowns off their faces. Based on vague descriptions, it sounded like the original source for lapis was still Arrow Lake. The traders were quite confused when the traders of South Lake said that the purchased the lapius from an intermediary overland. Based on where they thought Arrow Lake was in relation to South Lake, it wasn't that far. South Lake should've been able to trade with them by water. The answer to that had been pure confusion. Yes, the Southlands had lakes and rivers, but it didn't even seem to be a fraction of the number of lakes and rivers that the People were used to.
Still, that conundrum only made South Lake's trade less useful. The People had direct access there and long-standing trade ties. Getting more of the beautiful blue stone would be easier and far cheaper there, not to mention the fact that a canoe transported so much more without having to carry anything. The ochre offered was interesting, but not interesting enough to off-set the cost of obsidian and sugar.
A few delicate inquires about the possibility of purchasing... People were quickly rebuffed. Apparently South Lake had a brisk trade. Their war against the Island Makers was going well and they took home numerous men and women. Apparently, the Island Makers were a tribe skilled in the movement of earth and water. Putting them to work apparently went a long way to making South Lake's 'farms' productive. They liked obsidian and the taste of sugar was divine, but it didn't fill their bellies like 'crops' could.
South Lake was clearly the worst of all possible trade partners; eminently practical and utterly uninterested in frippery.
In the interests of peaceful and ongoing relations, the traders had eventually accepted trading ochre for sugar and obsidian. South Lake pushed for an exchange rate the traders thought exorbitantly against the People, but the deal was eventually struck.
That was when the problems started back home.
South Lake quickly fell in love with obsidian, using it as much as they possibly could. It was a better tool and a sharper weapon than flint and from what South Lake eagerly shared, they had a great need for both. War to gather more slaves and tools to put those slaves to work. Combined with the excitement from the Northern Hinterlands, and the People were trading away obsidian almost as fast as they could mine it!
Status: Trade Trend (Obsidian)
During a Trend, a specific type of trade good becomes significantly more profitable than it would normally be. Trends are generally transitory, but during that time can be extremely powerful for whomever controls the source of the trending good. Leading traders get twice the normal profit. Dominant ones get three times the benefit. Based on the current economic type, trends boost diplomacy. After currency is invented, they will boost wealth. Factions wanting a Trend Good, but being unable to obtain them, for whatever reason, will suffer Stability damage.
Trigger: Trade good is in great demand by 1 Regional Power, 3 regular powers, OR 5 minor powers.
Effect: Leading traders get double profit, Dominant ones triple; Stability damage for recipient powers who can't obtain the trending good
There were some whispers of worry at exactly how fast obsidian was being given away, but Kaspar felt that was less of a concern than many of the other elders. Based on reports from explorers, Crystal Lake had numerous deposits and only a single one of them had truly been tapped. At the current rate of usage, it would be... generations upon generations before it became a true concern.
News of the trade deal quickly spread through the People and enraged many formerly of the Hundred Bands. Many of them had family or friends murdered or enslaved by South Lake. The broke out into nearly fatal violence when a few former Hundred Bands sneaked their way into a trade group heading to South Lake. By unfortunate coincidence, one of the men happened to come across their sister and her many, many children. The condition of their keeping had left him unsatisfied.
Kaspar himself, despite the protesting of his old bones, had to travel down to smooth things over. Despite initial misgivings about him being too old to possibly be a Big Man, he managed to talk South Lake into a more favourable deal. They released the sister and her children, but Kaspar knew that behind their smiles, South Lake had far more of the Hundred Bands' civilians. They also managed to agree to a more favourable trade deal. While South Lake didn't have anything the People were interested in trading for (and weren't willing to trade people), they instead offered something different. Apparently, just as the People had tamed wolves into dogs, South Lake had tamed a plant: sweetcorn.
Unlike wild rice, this plant could be grown en-mass on land and eaten. It could simply be boiled or mashed into a simple meal. Once water was added to cornmeal and the entire thing heated, it turned into solid biscuits that were easy to store. There were many plants like that in the south, according to South Lake. If they collected samples, those could be sent up to the People who could grow them as additional food. That additional good would then allow them to mine even more obsidian, South Lake's traders suggested.
Kaspar didn't miss the implication that if the People were still unhappy at such a deal, South Lake could begin looking for obsidian themselves. Preferably wherever it was that the People found it.
Still it was a fantastic deal. He knew how much access to rice had improved the People. How would corn or other crops? From what he was gathering of South Lake's motives, they were counting on it taking time for the People to capitalize on new crops for it to make any difference. Or perhaps they were desperate. South Lake was aggressive and had only been encouraged by their total victory against the Hundred Bands and ongoing success against the Island Makers. Thinking on it more deeply, it didn't sound to Kaspar like South Lake traded with an intermediary to get lapis from Arrow Lake. They most likely took it. There were likely other tribes, both on the land south of South Lake and tribes further to the west. It was likely they had numerous enemies.
Status Gained: Unorthodox Trade Recipient
In order to deal with an imbalance of trade, a Faction has entered an unorthodox trade arrangement. This arrangement involves trading technology or other valuable ideas in order to fulfill this demand. This trade may be severed at any time by the one offering technology, but there is often a reason why they are forced into this position. Retribution may be swift for breaking such agreements.
Effects: Unorthodox Trade Recipients gain 1 innovation roll each turn with technologies taken from the unorthodox trader's entire technology list
Trigger: Lose a war; trade imbalance; diplomatic action
The weapons that obsidian made were cruel and vicious, great instruments for killing. Perhaps they felt they needed the extra edge at all costs.
None of that was truly Kaspar's concern. He knew an excellent deal when he saw one and struck a bargain. It was when he returned home that the problems truly started in earnest. The women he'd purchased had returned to her family and spoken extensively about the treatment she and the other slaves taken by South Lake received. It had enraged many amongst the former Hundred Bands and inspired many to near violence.
Some even went so far as to hatch a plot to steal canoes and launch a war-party of their own. A rescue mission they called it. Thankfully, Kaspar's old ruling of punishing silence in plots came in use and caused several nervous individuals to confess everything. The punishments after that incident were harsh and notably inflamed tensions. Kaspar had negotiated a trade deal with South Lake. To turn and then strike at them would be purest folly. If other tribes caught word that the People were double dealers, that they came with peace in one hand but a blade in the other, they would never be trusted again.
As the situation festered, the People and Hundred Bands started to slowly segregate themselves from each other. Kaspar knew that was civil war waiting to follow, in perhaps two generations at most. He needed to intervene, and forcefully at that. In the end, he turned to his family, his children, grandchildren, and even great grandchildren. He turned to the families and descendants of his Slate. Offering promises, bribes, gifts, and even a few threats, he managed to convince enough people to enter marriages with the Hundred Bands. It didn't heal the rifts, but it forcefully stitched them close.
To cement it all, Kaspar took another wife. He hadn't wanted to marry the young woman, mustering himself to put even a single child in her was a painful process, but she was the lynch pin. Her brother and three of her cousins remained extremely influential among the Hundred Bands. If they became family to the People, then the rift would finally close over. It didn't solve everything, but it started the healing.
Diplomacy: Trade (Arrow Lake) Now Locked In
Admin: Expand Aquaculture (Rice) Now Locked In
Art: Trade (Northern Hinterlands)
Martial 1: Undergo Ordeal Now Locked In
Martial 2: The Hill (1/4)
Action 1: The Hill (2/4)
Action 2: The Hill (3/4)
Climate Action: Manage Forests (Corn) -> Gained: Basic Horticulture
Most of the final stages of Kaspar's life were spent on codifying what he had done while younger. He continued trade ties with Arrow Lake and with the Northern Hinterlands. Good ties should be fostered there in order to secure their borders and, in the case of Arrow Lake, their lapis luzili. He wasn't certain, but from what he could tell, they were fairly isolated. Aside from the river to the Fingers, it didn't sound like they had many rivers they could otherwise use to trade. Cornering that trade good would pay dividends in the future.
Pointedly, he ignored South Lake. He knew that they would come to the People to trade, but if the People went to them, internal wounds would be ripped open.
He also focused on the memories of the fires that had burned so brilliantly a generation before, on both a spiritual and practical level. The Hundred Bands survivors were given a place of honour as Survivors. They had passed the Ordeal of Fire with their lives. The spirits had tested them and they had passed. It wasn't as effective as if it was right after the fires, but it did give the Hundred Bands a new source of respect within the People. Wounds started to heal as the power of the Hundred Bands' spirit was celebrated.
Compatible Values Detected!
Fuse: Ordeal + Double Down -> Trial By Fire?
[ ] [Value] Yes
[ ] [Value] No
There was also a more practical level as well. Apparently, corn had been a crop that the Hundred Bands had cultivated in large amounts. All of their seed stock was destroyed during the great fires when they fled. Now that the People had access to a new source, the skills of the Hundred Bands could be put to good use. The fires from a generation ago had also churned the soil and brought new fertility to it. The newly planted corn grew unusually effectively. Based on what Kaspar could deduce, it seemed that fires burning across the land left something in the soil the inspired the growth of new life.
The last project was by far, Kaspar's most ambitious: The Hill. Everyone knew that walking uphill in order to attack your enemy made everything significantly more difficult. Half of the defenses of the Fingers were, aside from the river on which it sat, the fact that any attackers would have to surmount a small mountain before the People could even be attacked. Such geographic features were, obviously, inconveniently located. There were not many places like the Fingers were you effectively had a mountain coming out of a river.
As a position of defense, it was supreme and unmatched. So, with that in mind, why couldn't the People simply build a hill? It would take effort to move the dirt, but there wasn't anything particularly hard about it. At least, so Kaspar thought at first. Moving large amounts of earth was difficult. Rain tended to wash them away, and there were issues of them creating unstable platforms. Dirt, especially if it was wet, shifted notably during the winters. The freezing of water into ice and the subsequent settling in the spring could cause the entire thing to crumble.
The construct had to have its spine stiffened, mostly by bricks or by rock.
Kaspar had chosen a site west of Crystal Lake, on the Great Bay near where a number of rivers poured into it. It was a good location, irrigated enough that water barred many approaches and still had foliage coverage, unlike the bay's more western reaches. It also guarded the entrance to the valley that housed Crystal Lake.
According to Maksus, a small group of the Barrow Builders or Peace Seekers were caught hunting closer and closer to Crystal Lake. There hadn't been contact yet, but it would occur soon. Kaspar wanted Crystal Lake to be well fortified so that it was impossible to strike against them. Building a great Hill and then laying a settlement on top of it would give the People undisputed mastery over their river system and go a long way to protect their most important Wondrous place.
It also, incidentally, taught the People much about the art of organizing large groups of workers and moving massive amounts of earth. Those lessons would be immensely useful once they started to grow corn in any substantial volume.
Something would need to be done about them, eventually. But what?
[ ] [West] Finish the Hill (Megaproject: The Hill 4/4)
[ ] [West] Trade: Peace Seekers/Barrow Builders?
[ ] [West] Promote Folk Wrestling
[ ] [West] Explore: Great Bay
[ ] [West] Party Hard! (Annual Festival)
AN: Participants have asked for a vote moratorium. This is something I believe would be beneficial, but I will leave it up to the voters.
[X] [Value] Yes
[X] [West] Finish the Hill (Megaproject: The Hill 4/4)
[X] [Moratorium] 12 hours
No need for it to be to long, but some time for some thought is nice.
Unnixmatalized corn is lacking in niacin, so if they're relying on that as their primary food then their population will likely be suffering from the pellagra illness something fierce. This is why hominy came into popularity!
Unnixmatalized corn is lacking in niacin, so if they're relying on that as their primary food then their population will likely be suffering from the pellagra illness something fierce. This is why hominy came into popularity!
Pellagra is an illness you get when you're lacking in the vitamin niacin (that's the same as the B3 vitamin). You get many awful symptoms from this including diarrhea, skin problems (it can peel off, become scaly, etc.) get a little mentally crazy or even die after some years. Niacin is present in corn but it is not usable by the body unless the corn has been nixtamalized by soaking it in an alkaline solution, which is how the food hominy is created. Populations where this was not done that relied on corn heavily anyway would notice pellagra as a problem at times when other sources of niacin in the diet would disappear. Here are some links for interesting reading:
well that was risly, trading with a useless trade partner who may try and take advantage of us in later years.
The effort to get said trade has also caused minor fracture among the hundred bands.
I think maybe we should avoid doing such dealings after adopting peoples into our tribe and expect them to go along with whatever we want with their conquerors.
[X] [Value] Yes
[X] [West] Finish the Hill (Megaproject: The Hill 4/4)
[X] [Moratorium] 12 hours
Pellagra is an illness you get when you're lacking in the vitamin niacin (that's the same as the B3 vitamin). You get many awful symptoms from this including diarrhea, skin problems (it can peel off, become scaly, etc.) get a little mentally crazy or even die after some years. Niacin is present in corn but it is not usable by the body unless the corn has been nixtamalized by soaking it in an alkaline solution, which is how the food hominy is created. Populations where this was not done that relied on corn heavily anyway would notice pellagra as a problem at times when other sources of niacin in the diet would disappear. Here are some links for interesting reading:
[X] [Value] Yes
[X] [West] Finish the Hill (Megaproject: The Hill 4/4)
[X] [Moratorium] 12 hours
Well, we're getting a new settlement, but it's not in the spot I wanted. I wanted this spot eventually (I assume it's the one further away from the Peace Seekers), but I was hoping to consolidate our lands first with the Middle River settlement. Oh well, gift horses and all that.
[X] [Value] Yes
[X] [West] Finish the Hill (Megaproject: The Hill 4/4)
[X] [Moratorium] None
I'm fine with a moratorium but 12 hours is a bit long IMO. If there was a 2 hour option that would be good.
On another note, since there is corn can we assume that we're in the not!Americas? Seeing as the Old World didn't have corn until the Columbian Exchange.
[X] [Value] Yes
[X] [West] Finish the Hill (Megaproject: The Hill 4/4)
[X] [Moratorium] None
I'm fine with a moratorium but 12 hours is a bit long IMO. If there was a 2 hour option that would be good.
On another note, since there is corn can we assume that we're in the not!Americas? Seeing as the Old World didn't have corn until the Columbian Exchange.
12 hours is fine, i mean he posts near midnight anyways
Also, i have no idea about not!America. it'd be kind of bad since that'd mean we are disadvantaged in terms of work animals, that benefited the Old World so much.
[X] [Value] No
[X] [West] Finish the Hill (Megaproject: The Hill 4/4)
[X] [Moratorium] No
Two hours would be okay, 12 hours is too long for me.
I like that Ordeal can be used by our own initiative, as opposed to what Trial By Fire would seem to imply.
I.e., the latter relies on a Fire to be trialed by.
