From Stone to the Stars

[Japanime]

Some more new things we can see on the stats page:

Entertainment
Gambling
Practice Fights
Scrimshaw

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This was added yesterday, so if anything it looks like Priit is the originator of entertainment for the People, which is something I wasn't expecting from him overall.

I'm kind of curious how this addition will affect our action choices for the next turn.

Gathering
Berries (Elderberries, Strawberries, Blueberries, Cranberries, Cherries, Blackberries)
Condiments (Evergreen)
Flowers (Fireweed, Sunflower)
Fruits (Plums, Persimmons, Grapes, Crabapples)
Nuts (Hickory, Walnut, Acorns, Hazelnut)
Vegetables (Beans, Squash, Fiddleheads)
Roots (Balsamroot)

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Interestingly enough, it seems the gathering section was updated considerably. I'm kind of curious as to why, such as whether it was due to any action on our part, but it seems like in general we have a wide variety of food sources to choose from.

In regards to the only close part of the vote currently, that of what to do about the Northlanders, I think we might need to take another angle into considering regarding this situation.

If we take the QM's mention that we are going to likely be fighting a lot of wars soon, no doubt due to joining the Peace Builders in their war efforts against their southern neighbors. Which one of these options likely benefits us the most in this case?

The way I see it, the debtor option may be the most sound, depending on if we can control the Northlands debtors well enough to make sure they don't have an uprising or something. Because if we are going to be sending a good portion of our young men to assist the Peace Builders in their war, we may need the economic boost that the debtors give us so that our economy experiences as minimal disruption as possible.

I think we will probably also need to potentially scramble for land soon, in that we may need to found another settlement again. The Mountain Clans based on how devastated they seem to be, are likely going to disintegrate as an entity soon, thus making it so that the island on the Valge River, the former site of the Hundred Bands northernmost encampment that we burned down, will soon be available. It may have been some time since this has been discussed but controlling that site will allow us to better dominate that fertile river valley region and thus allow us to compete in the future since the southern parts of the bay will likely remain contested.

The main issue of contention I have with the choice of vassalizaton right now, something that @Redium can probably help alleviate, is that we don't know what exactly having a vassal entails. If we take the Northlands as our vassal, what are the odds they will break their vassalage when the majority of our small warrior core are sent south to aid the Peace Builders? That is my main concern at the moment.

 

[racnor]

I think we will probably also need to potentially scramble for land soon, in that we may need to found another settlement again. The Mountain Clans based on how devastated they seem to be, are likely going to disintegrate as an entity soon, thus making it so that the island on the Valge River, the former site of the Hundred Bands northernmost encampment that we burned down, will soon be available. It may have been some time since this has been discussed but controlling that site will allow us to better dominate that fertile river valley region and thus allow us to compete in the future since the southern parts of the bay will likely remain contested.

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My response to this idea is even more of a NO than before, for all the same reasons. We already control a third of the plain with The Fingers, we still do almost no farming, and we have an even longer to-do list than we did at the beginning of this turn.

 

[veekie]

The way I see it, the debtor option may be the most sound, depending on if we can control the Northlands debtors well enough to make sure they don't have an uprising or something. Because if we are going to be sending a good portion of our young men to assist the Peace Builders in their war, we may need the economic boost that the debtors give us so that our economy experiences as minimal disruption as possible.

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You want to take in what looks like a quarter of our population in slaves before sending out most of our armed forces?!

 

[Japanime]

My response to this idea is even more of a NO than before, for all the same reasons. We already control a third of the plain with The Fingers, we still do almost no farming, and we have an even longer to-do list than we did at the beginning of this turn.

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We don't really control it though. Formally our zone of control only extends as far as that island, and like the QM said, if anyone were to found a location there we won't be well positioned to dislodge them from it, especially if it is someone like the Island Makers.

I am not disputing that we have things to do on our to do list, however, what I am arguing is that by potentially seizing the island now we can likely save ourselves some trouble in the future. Similar arguments were had when we seized the Fingers, yet lo and behold it has benefited us immensely. We will always have things we will need to catch up and work on. Arguably speaking we have started work on a lot of them already, with the Hunt being finished, reforms likely in our Law Code and Trials soon, and a Temple likely being constructed soon at Hill Guard.

The dissolution of the Mountain Clans and their loss of control with that island will not last forever. Just as how the River Tribe who we know nothing about are likely to close off the coveted North Bay position. My reasoning is that just because we have things on our to do list does not mean we shouldn't take opportunities when they appear, because our to do list will always be there, we've wanted to build more hills for a long while, yet opportunities like the disintegration of another polity do not happen every turn.

You want to take in what looks like a quarter of our population in slaves before sending out most of our armed forces?!

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No, I'd prefer not to but it doesn't seem like we have a choice in the matter when it comes to the coming wars we are about to fight. The Peace Builders assisted us in our war so I doubt Priit will stand by as war leader when it comes to assisting them. The two leading options are currently vassalage and debtors. Both will likely be in potential jeopardy if we send our warriors out so soon, at least the majority, if war comes from the South soon. I doubt a vassal will remain compliant if one of the reasons to remain a vassal, our military force is gone. The same could be said for the debtors unless we get a choice to hold back on our contribution to only a certain percentage.

 

[racnor]

We don't really control it though. Formally our zone of control only extends as far as that island, and like the QM said, if anyone were to found a location there we won't be well positioned to dislodge them from it, especially if it is someone like the Island Makers.

I am not disputing that we have things to do on our to do list, however, what I am arguing is that by potentially seizing the island now we can likely save ourselves some trouble in the future. Similar arguments were had when we seized the Fingers, yet lo and behold it has benefited us immensely. We will always have things we will need to catch up and work on. Arguably speaking we have started work on a lot of them already, with the Hunt being finished, reforms likely in our Law Code and Trials soon, and a Temple likely being constructed soon at Hill Guard.

The dissolution of the Mountain Clans and their loss of control with that island will not last forever. Just as how the River Tribe who we know nothing about are likely to close off the coveted North Bay position. My reasoning is that just because we have things on our to do list does not mean we shouldn't take opportunities when they appear, because our to do list will always be there, we've wanted to build more hills for a long while, yet opportunities like the disintegration of another polity do not happen every turn.

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Yes, preventing someone else from fortifying the island is nice, and so is having a bit more potential farmland in the future, but is that worth seven actions and 2 econ tiers (or possibly more if Supernal Symphony applies to settlements too)? Because that's what it costs us in delays to build the next settlement now, and I don't think so.

 

[PLP]

[X] [Victory] Take the Northlanders into the People as Debtors. (+3 Tiers of Economy)

[X] [Adult] The franchise should be expanded: recognized Shaman (including members of Holy Orders) may speak as adults.
[X] [Adult] Adulthood has grown beyond hunters and mothers. Let people be recognized by others in their profession.

 

[Japanime]

Yes, preventing someone else from fortifying the island is nice, and so is having a bit more potential farmland in the future, but is that worth seven actions and 2 econ tiers (or possibly more if Supernal Symphony applies to settlements too)? Because that's what it costs us in delays to build the next settlement now, and I don't think so.

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At the rate we are going with Hills and Temples, if we take into account the fact that the Temple at Hill Guard will soon be finished, it will be at least four turns at minimum, assuming we spend each turn dedicated to fully producing either a hill or Temple, before we can complete the other buildings needed, which added on to the 3 turns needed to lock a development in, makes it so that it will be at least 7 turns before we lock in both Temples and Hills.

Considering how costly wars can be for us, as this last turn series has shown us, where we fought the lowest ranked tribe on the totem pole with the help of one of the premier powers in the region and almost got our asses handed to us with a good chance that we could've bungled our way into a collapse, I think you might be understating how useful it could be for us to secure control of that island. By securing the island at this earliest juncture without having to potentially fight say the Island Makers, or someone else, we will avert a potentially costly war that will cost us more than just delays in our optimal build queue.

After all it was the QM who specifically mentioned that he who controls either the lands to the South of the Peace Builders and the Bay, or the Valge River Valley Flood Plains, could essentially use the fertile soil there to expand rapidly and then break us over their knee. Considering how we almost got our asses handed to us by the Northlands, I am inclined to agree with his assessment. For while they likely could not surmount our brick walls, their numerous warriors can likely besiege us enough to starve us out.

So in short, yes, I do feel that it's indeed worth spending some time and actions now, as well as potentially a boosted economy through debtors, to secure the island in the center of the Valge River. Expanding now will of course set us back, but when it comes to long term projections, 7 turns at minimum unless we somehow get more Megaproject boons to shorten that build time and lock in time, is a long ways away. I doubt many of thought at the end of the 16 turn series that we would be fighting such a hard fought war against the Northlands, especially when we generally did well against our previous opponents, but here we are. We almost collapsed this turn, and almost everything was derailed by this war.

While choosing an optimal build with efficient action choices would be preferred, the other powers in the area, along with the dice and the weather, may not be so kind to us. An opportunity like this does not come often.

So in short, the chance of securing and fortifying an area without needing to fight a potentially disastrous war is well worth extending the lock in time required as well as spending more actions.

 

[racnor]

At the rate we are going with Hills and Temples, if we take into account the fact that the Temple at Hill Guard will soon be finished, it will be at least four turns at minimum, assuming we spend each turn dedicated to fully producing either a hill or Temple, before we can complete the other buildings needed, which added on to the 3 turns needed to lock a development in, makes it so that it will be at least 7 turns before we lock in both Temples and Hills.

Considering how costly wars can be for us, as this last turn series has shown us, where we fought the lowest ranked tribe on the totem pole with the help of one of the premier powers in the region and almost got our asses handed to us with a good chance that we could've bungled our way into a collapse, I think you might be understating how useful it could be for us to secure control of that island. By securing the island at this earliest juncture without having to potentially fight say the Island Makers, or someone else, we will avert a potentially costly war that will cost us more than just delays in our optimal build queue.

After all it was the QM who specifically mentioned that he who controls either the lands to the South of the Peace Builders and the Bay, or the Valge River Valley Flood Plains, could essentially use the fertile soil there to expand rapidly and then break us over their knee. Considering how we almost got our asses handed to us by the Northlands, I am inclined to agree with his assessment. For while they likely could not surmount our brick walls, their numerous warriors can likely besiege us enough to starve us out.

So in short, yes, I do feel that it's indeed worth spending some time and actions now, as well as potentially a boosted economy through debtors, to secure the island in the center of the Valge River. Expanding now will of course set us back, but when it comes to long term projections, 7 turns at minimum unless we somehow get more Megaproject boons to shorten that build time and lock in time, is a long ways away. I doubt many of thought at the end of the 16 turn series that we would be fighting such a hard fought war against the Northlands, especially when we generally did well against our previous opponents, but here we are. We almost collapsed this turn, and almost everything was derailed by this war.

While choosing an optimal build with efficient action choices would be preferred, the other powers in the area, along with the dice and the weather, may not be so kind to us. An opportunity like this does not come often.

So in short, the chance of securing and fortifying an area without needing to fight a potentially disastrous war is well worth extending the lock in time required as well as spending more actions.

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This war has derailed nothing; all it has done is skew our perception of how dangerous war is; the enemy crit repeatedly, was on unexplored terrain, had a game-changing tech advantage, and had an unopposed martial hero on the first turn, while we were in the middle of a crisis. This should not become our go-to example of how dangerous war is.

 

[Japanime]

This war has derailed nothing; all it has done is skew our perception of how dangerous war is; the enemy crit repeatedly, was on unexplored terrain, had a game-changing tech advantage, and had an unopposed martial hero on the first turn, while we were in the middle of a crisis. This should not become our go-to example of how dangerous war is.

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I find it hard to believe that this war didn't derail anything when for all intents and purposes our foreign policy has been upended. Before this war, we were only loosely tied to the Peace Builders. After this war, due to their assistance, we are likely honor bound to assist them in their coming war against their southern foes. If this war had not happened, assuming here for the sake of argument that our gift was accepted and we retained our trade ties with the Northlands, and the Peace Builders had another war with the South then there would likely be little reason for us to assist them in said war, unlike right now.

Furthermore, if we take a look at things outside of the lens of foreign policy, and instead say look at things such as actions spent as a measure of how things were derailed, or changed in this case, we likely would not have ended up spending one action on a raid choice, and then another on studying travel to help assist with raiding. This isn't even taking into account the fact that we likely will have to dedicate even more turns and actions to the Stone Age Law megaproject, a megaproject that came as a direct result of our actions and choices during this war.

The aforementioned actions are actions we likely could have used and spent on other things, such as hills or temples. So in short I don't believe this war didn't derail nothing.

Furthermore, yes, this war should not be our example of how every war should be. However, the point I was trying to make was that we shouldn't just throw caution to the wind and assume that every war will be as easy as our previous ones. The point I was trying to make was that by spending effort now, we could save ourselves more trouble in the future, which you seemed to have downplayed in your previous statement.

Yes, the Northlands did in fact crit on a lot of things in their war against us, however an argument could be made that the conditions of our previous wars should not be used as the gold standard either when it comes to measuring up how wars will go for us. For example let's take our first true war, that of our campaign against the Fingersmen far into the past of this quest. That war should not be used as a typical example of how wars should be fought as I doubt we will have ever have four heroes, five if you count Natka, to give us the ability to one shot another civilization like we did the Fingersmen in that lightning raid, where our combined two martial heroes, an art hero, and an admin hero allowed us to end the war in a lightning raid.

The next war we had, against the Hundred Bands, could potentially serve as an example of how war could be. That war lasted from turn 9, potentially even 8 if we consider their first failed raid against the Fingers, all the way up until turn 13. However an argument could be made that the war was shorter than it likely could have been had averages been considered. After all I doubt we can expect to roll up a quad hero, one skilled in martial, admin, art, and diplo, to help us win the war. Nor should we expect the weather to aid us as well as it did when a literal firestorm burnt down their settlements down south.

Finally, if we take into consideration the war against South Lake, once again we cannot look at that as an example of how an average war for us might go as the conditions for that war were anything but average. We still had the Great Spirit Kaspar leading us at the time, someone I will once again point out we have little odds of generating in any future conflict. Furthermore we had the perfect confluence of events that allowed us to easily triumph against the martially superior South Lake. The climate turned against them, their slaves were revolting, and they were at war with a loose coalition of at least four other tribes. That war was lucky for us as Kaspar noted at the time

So far all of our wars can be said to have been lucky, save for this recent one against the Northlands. While the Northlands Wars are an outlier, so too should our other wars considering how absurdly lucky we were in those.

The point I am trying to make is that you are downplaying how useful it will be to secure that island right now, as war is unpredictable, and I would rather waste actions and time for a chance at securing that island rather than potentially rolling the dice and hoping that we can take the island ourselves later on, especially with the long timescales you did not address.

 

[racnor]

I find it hard to believe that this war didn't derail anything when for all intents and purposes our foreign policy has been upended. Before this war, we were only loosely tied to the Peace Builders. After this war, due to their assistance, we are likely honor bound to assist them in their coming war against their southern foes. If this war had not happened, assuming here for the sake of argument that our gift was accepted and we retained our trade ties with the Northlands, and the Peace Builders had another war with the South then there would likely be little reason for us to assist them in said war, unlike right now.

Furthermore, if we take a look at things outside of the lens of foreign policy, and instead say look at things such as actions spent as a measure of how things were derailed, or changed in this case, we likely would not have ended up spending one action on a raid choice, and then another on studying travel to help assist with raiding. This isn't even taking into account the fact that we likely will have to dedicate even more turns and actions to the Stone Age Law megaproject, a megaproject that came as a direct result of our actions and choices during this war.

The aforementioned actions are actions we likely could have used and spent on other things, such as hills or temples. So in short I don't believe this war didn't derail nothing.

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The war with the peace builder's foes can be managed by Pritt, since it is by definition a series of martial actions. The lost time from the raid and study travel options is made up for by the surprise free temple from completing the hunt. The only net action loss here is the Law megaproject.

g.

Furthermore, yes, this war should not be our example of how every war should be. However, the point I was trying to make was that we shouldn't just throw caution to the wind and assume that every war will be as easy as our previous ones. The point I was trying to make was that by spending effort now, we could save ourselves more trouble in the future, which you seemed to have downplayed in your previous statement.

Yes, the Northlands did in fact crit on a lot of things in their war against us, however an argument could be made that the conditions of our previous wars should not be used as the gold standard either when it comes to measuring up how wars will go for us. For example let's take our first true war, that of our campaign against the Fingersmen far into the past of this quest. That war should not be used as a typical example of how wars should be fought as I doubt we will have ever have four heroes, five if you count Natka, to give us the ability to one shot another civilization like we did the Fingersmen in that lightning raid, where our combined two martial heroes, an art hero, and an admin hero allowed us to end the war in a lightning raid.

The next war we had, against the Hundred Bands, could potentially serve as an example of how war could be. That war lasted from turn 9, potentially even 8 if we consider their first failed raid against the Fingers, all the way up until turn 13. However an argument could be made that the war was shorter than it likely could have been had averages been considered. After all I doubt we can expect to roll up a quad hero, one skilled in martial, admin, art, and diplo, to help us win the war. Nor should we expect the weather to aid us as well as it did when a literal firestorm burnt down their settlements down south.

Finally, if we take into consideration the war against South Lake, once again we cannot look at that as an example of how an average war for us might go as the conditions for that war were anything but average. We still had the Great Spirit Kaspar leading us at the time, someone I will once again point out we have little odds of generating in any future conflict. Furthermore we had the perfect confluence of events that allowed us to easily triumph against the martially superior South Lake. The climate turned against them, their slaves were revolting, and they were at war with a loose coalition of at least four other tribes. That war was lucky for us as Kaspar noted at the time

So far all of our wars can be said to have been lucky, save for this recent one against the Northlands. While the Northlands Wars are an outlier, so too should our other wars considering how absurdly lucky we were in those.

The point I am trying to make is that you are downplaying how useful it will be to secure that island right now, as war is unpredictable, and I would rather waste actions and time for a chance at securing that island rather than potentially rolling the dice and hoping that we can take the island ourselves later on, especially with the long timescales you did not address.

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I would argue that the hundred bands war was the best representation of the average war. Kaspar was great, but his impact on the war itself wasn't that much greater than any other martial hero, and the extra effect came in the form of tech we still have. And yes, the Hundred Bands eventually got a bad roll that did serious damage to them, but we were doing well before that. It should also be kept in mind that the form the Northlander advantages took negated many of our advantages. The ember eyes were pretty much useless here without settlments to sack, we rarely got in range to use our obsidian swords, their strong leader's personal grudge against us negated any diplomatic intimidation benefits from FAO, and professional warriors die to arrows just as fast as regular warriors.

Finally, even a war as bad as this one isn't worth losing 7 actions to avoid. The war itself cost 2 actions, some stability, and manpower depletion. Its going to gain us either a vassal or 3 econ. If the northlands weren't already one of the people we had trade locked in with, and if we weren't in an unrelated disaster, then I might even be happy with how this one went.

 

[Japanime]

The war with the peace builder's foes can be managed by Pritt, since it is by definition a series of martial actions. The lost time from the raid and study travel options is made up for by the surprise free temple from completing the hunt. The only net action loss here is the Law megaproject.

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While it is true that Priit likely will handle the war with the Peace Builders foes the point I was making was that without the war with the Northlands we would not likely have helped the Peace Builders in their war with their foes, which is something very different from the sentiment before this where we were thinking of ways to stymie their southern expansion by trading with their foes.

As for the Free Temple, seeing as we were already working on the Hunt megaproject anyways from beforehand we likely would have gotten it anyway with or without the war as that action was started the turn before.

None of what you've said really refutes what I said earlier about this changing the course of events for us.

I would argue that the hundred bands war was the best representation of the average war. Kaspar was great, but his impact on the war itself wasn't that much greater than any other martial hero, and the extra effect came in the form of tech we still have. And yes, the Hundred Bands eventually got a bad roll that did serious damage to them, but we were doing well before that. It should also be kept in mind that the form the Northlander advantages took negated many of our advantages. The ember eyes were pretty much useless here without settlments to sack, we rarely got in range to use our obsidian swords, their strong leader's personal grudge against us negated any diplomatic intimidation benefits from FAO, and professional warriors die to arrows just as fast as regular warriors.

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Except the key point I was making is that we can't always rely on having heroes as exceptional as Kaspar to fight our wars. Keep in mind, during the war with the Hundred Bands we actually had another martial hero during the conflict in Maksus who Kaspar overshadowed and took under his wing, something that we cannot always expect to spawn for every war.

The way the war ended should be taken into consideration here as that was also totally not something we can expect if we had average rolls. Keep in mind while we were pushing the Hundred Bands back we did not have much of a real chance to push them to collapse due to their distance at the time. So once again, if we were any other civilization our wars would look odd as they are in no way the norm where you can expect martial heroes to spawn every time and for freak forest fires to burn down your foes.

I never debated that the war with the Northlanders was heavily stacked against us. However, the lesson from here is that our enemies can always surprise us. A lesson we should well remember. That is why I would rather spend actions than lives or stability which could cause is to collapse.

Finally, even a war as bad as this one isn't worth losing 7 actions to avoid. The war itself cost 2 actions, some stability, and manpower depletion. Its going to gain us either a vassal or 3 econ. If the northlands weren't already one of the people we had trade locked in with, and if we weren't in an unrelated disaster, then I might even be happy with how this one went.

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I vehemently disagree. Considering that the QM himself said that we stood a chance of collapsing during this turn due to getting our shit kicked in, only being saved due to Priits efforts to turn the tide, I very well believe that spending actions to found a settlement is much better than risking a potential war in the future that could be turned against us especially as this Island is a key position. These are things the QM has mentioned before.

Action economy or efficiency matters less to me as I believe taking a short term cost here is worth it for the longer term implications.

 

[racnor]

While it is true that Priit likely will handle the war with the Peace Builders foes the point I was making was that without the war with the Northlands we would not likely have helped the Peace Builders in their war with their foes, which is something very different from the sentiment before this where we were thinking of ways to stymie their southern expansion by trading with their foes.

As for the Free Temple, seeing as we were already working on the Hunt megaproject anyways from beforehand we likely would have gotten it anyway with or without the war as that action was started the turn before.

None of what you've said really refutes what I said earlier about this changing the course of events for us.

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The peace builders being allies does not mean we have less actions available than we did when we were planning to sabotage them, and the hunt megaproject has not derailed anything either because those actions were not included in plans made this turn.

The only material difference between now and when those initial plans were made is the stone age law project. Beyond that, the only difference is that we are now more afraid of war.

Except the key point I was making is that we can't always rely on having heroes as exceptional as Kaspar to fight our wars. Keep in mind, during the war with the Hundred Bands we actually had another martial hero during the conflict in Maksus who Kaspar overshadowed and took under his wing, something that we cannot always expect to spawn for every war.

The way the war ended should be taken into consideration here as that was also totally not something we can expect if we had average rolls. Keep in mind while we were pushing the Hundred Bands back we did not have much of a real chance to push them to collapse due to their distance at the time. So once again, if we were any other civilization our wars would look odd as they are in no way the norm where you can expect martial heroes to spawn every time and for freak forest fires to burn down your foes.

I never debated that the war with the Northlanders was heavily stacked against us. However, the lesson from here is that our enemies can always surprise us. A lesson we should well remember. That is why I would rather spend actions than lives or stability which could cause is to collapse.




I vehemently disagree. Considering that the QM himself said that we stood a chance of collapsing during this turn due to getting our shit kicked in, only being saved due to Priits efforts to turn the tide, I very well believe that spending actions to found a settlement is much better than risking a potential war in the future that could be turned against us especially as this Island is a key position. These are things the QM has mentioned before.

Action economy or efficiency matters less to me as I believe taking a short term cost here is worth it for the longer term implications.

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We almost collapsed because 1) we were unprepared for this war, 2) we had a crisis in the middle of it.

When we go to attack the island, it will be at a time of our choosing. We don't need to expect freak forest fires to burn down our foes, we can just wait until something they roll a disaster on their own, THEN move in.

 

[Japanime]

The peace builders being allies does not mean we have less actions available than we did when we were planning to sabotage them, and the hunt megaproject has not derailed anything either because those actions were not included in plans made this turn.

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The Peace Builders being allies does in fact give us less options available regarding them both in a meta sense and IC wise. In character when the shit hits the fan the leading Big Man likely to influence or dictate our response will be Priit who has a sworn blood brother in a member of theirs. Furthermore we actually have a small number of tribe members who were from the Peace Builders which will likely influence the narrative and potentially constrain our actions. Through this war an action to betray the Peace Builders and not assist them here would likely incur a stability cost or legitimacy cost. If this war did not happen that likely would not be the case or at least would not be heavily penalized which would also inform our meta response as players.

For some of the players I highly doubt the Peace Builders going out on a limb for us did not change their thinking considering beforehand we saw them more as rivals than allies. Hell it influenced one of the previous votes in people wanting to adopt one of their values. So in a sense this war does no constrain our actions regarding dealing with the Peace Builders in terms of the players.

In regards to the hunt you clearly did not get the point regarding that. My argument regarding it was that we already started the hunt megaproject before the war started and we likely would have continued it regardless, meaning the bonus temple you referenced earlier is something we would've gotten anyway.

The only material difference between now and when those initial plans were made is the stone age law project. Beyond that, the only difference is that we are now more afraid of war.

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That's not true at all. Materially speaking we've literally gained new traits that we hadn't gotten before because of this war, things that tangibly affect our tribe such as the centralization we received as a result of gaining divorce and consequential justice as traits.

Furthermore in regards to material differences such as our number of warriors we clearly lost that as well, otherwise it wouldn't have been mentioned how most of our warriors were reduced so greatly both in the update and leader board.

So again I think you're wrong again, as these things do make a difference.

We almost collapsed because 1) we were unprepared for this war, 2) we had a crisis in the middle of it.

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Being unprepared for the war while true is not at all as significant as you are making it. We were originally unprepared against the Hundred Bands initially when they sacked the Fingers so I don't see that reasoning holding water, especially considering how that war did not bring us nearly to collapse. Furthermore even though we were unprepared for it the initial Peace Builder roll mitigated it, with only our bad crit fail afterwards damaging is so making it so our unpreparedness is less of a factor. We can't always choose our wars.

Secondly the crisis we had in the middle of it only became a crisis due to the stupid decision we made to punish Priit in an ex post facto manner that went against our values. Had we not done that we would not have had a crisis. Furthermore if we had killed Priit then it wouldn't have been the crisis that caused us to collapse it would've been our horrible war rolls, something we only learned afterwards was reversed by Priit. So that crisis only became a crisis as we made it so.

So in short I don't really find your arguments here accurate at all.

When we go to attack the island, it will be at a time of our choosing. We don't need to expect freak forest fires to burn down our foes, we can just wait until something they roll a disaster on their own, THEN move in.

Click to shrink...

That is assuming we have a choice next time regarding when and how a war starts. Of the wars we've had only one of those wars we chose to consciously start, and that was against South Lake. The war against the Fingers was started by the Fingersmen, who we chose to retaliate against. The war against the Hundred Bands started when we unintentionally antagonized them and one of their big men attempted to raid us, prompting continual war. Finally this war against the North is not one we intended to start either. My point being is that we do not always get to choose when to start a war, others can decide it for us by forcing us into doing so as they have before.

In short so far I have found none of your arguments convincing at all.

 

[SpeckofStardust]

When we go to attack the island, it will be at a time of our choosing. We don't need to expect freak forest fires to burn down our foes, we can just wait until something they roll a disaster on their own, THEN move in.

Click to shrink...

It should be noted that while we have all the time in the world, every one else has the same amount of time, After all us having a disaster happen and have someone move in on us is just as likely to happen as the other way around.

 

[racnor]

The Peace Builders being allies does in fact give us less options available regarding them both in a meta sense and IC wise. In character when the shit hits the fan the leading Big Man likely to influence or dictate our response will be Priit who has a sworn blood brother in a member of theirs. Furthermore we actually have a small number of tribe members who were from the Peace Builders which will likely influence the narrative and potentially constrain our actions. Through this war an action to betray the Peace Builders and not assist them here would likely incur a stability cost or legitimacy cost. If this war did not happen that likely would not be the case or at least would not be heavily penalized which would also inform our meta response as players.

For some of the players I highly doubt the Peace Builders going out on a limb for us did not change their thinking considering beforehand we saw them more as rivals than allies. Hell it influenced one of the previous votes in people wanting to adopt one of their values. So in a sense this war does no constrain our actions regarding dealing with the Peace Builders in terms of the players.

In regards to the hunt you clearly did not get the point regarding that. My argument regarding it was that we already started the hunt megaproject before the war started and we likely would have continued it regardless, meaning the bonus temple you referenced earlier is something we would've gotten anyway.



That's not true at all. Materially speaking we've literally gained new traits that we hadn't gotten before because of this war, things that tangibly affect our tribe such as the centralization we received as a result of gaining divorce and consequential justice as traits.

Furthermore in regards to material differences such as our number of warriors we clearly lost that as well, otherwise it wouldn't have been mentioned how most of our warriors were reduced so greatly both in the update and leader board.

So again I think you're wrong again, as these things do make a difference.

Click to shrink...

It is you who misunderstands MY point. I get that all these things have changed; I'm saying that the only net influence on my plans for infrastructure building is the added action cost of Stone age law. That's why I made the plans so vague in the first place.

Being unprepared for the war while true is not at all as significant as you are making it. We were originally unprepared against the Hundred Bands initially when they sacked the Fingers so I don't see that reasoning holding water, especially considering how that war did not bring us nearly to collapse. Furthermore even though we were unprepared for it the initial Peace Builder roll mitigated it, with only our bad crit fail afterwards damaging is so making it so our unpreparedness is less of a factor. We can't always choose our wars.

Secondly the crisis we had in the middle of it only became a crisis due to the stupid decision we made to punish Priit in an ex post facto manner that went against our values. Had we not done that we would not have had a crisis. Furthermore if we had killed Priit then it wouldn't have been the crisis that caused us to collapse it would've been our horrible war rolls, something we only learned afterwards was reversed by Priit. So that crisis only became a crisis as we made it so.

So in short I don't really find your arguments here accurate at all.

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Most crises have at least one blatant stability preserving option. We just have to remember to always hammer that one in times of crisis.

That is assuming we have a choice next time regarding when and how a war starts. Of the wars we've had only one of those wars we chose to consciously start, and that was against South Lake. The war against the Fingers was started by the Fingersmen, who we chose to retaliate against. The war against the Hundred Bands started when we unintentionally antagonized them and one of their big men attempted to raid us, prompting continual war. Finally this war against the North is not one we intended to start either. My point being is that we do not always get to choose when to start a war, others can decide it for us by forcing us into doing so as they have before.

In short so far I have found none of your arguments convincing at all.

Click to shrink...

In that case we have to fight a war whether or not we take the settlement this turn, and gain almost nothing from losing those 7 actions. Sure, it would improve our chances in such a war, but I would argue that, say, locking in Train Warriors and Promote Folk Wrestling would provide a bigger bonus than one more fort.

It should be noted that while we have all the time in the world, every one else has the same amount of time, After all us having a disaster happen and have someone move in on us is just as likely to happen as the other way around.

Click to shrink...

That's the value of going tall and being a civ of disaster preppers; when the climate decides to shit on everything, we have the best chances of coming out smelling like roses.

 

[veekie]

No, I'd prefer not to but it doesn't seem like we have a choice in the matter when it comes to the coming wars we are about to fight. The Peace Builders assisted us in our war so I doubt Priit will stand by as war leader when it comes to assisting them. The two leading options are currently vassalage and debtors. Both will likely be in potential jeopardy if we send our warriors out so soon, at least the majority, if war comes from the South soon. I doubt a vassal will remain compliant if one of the reasons to remain a vassal, our military force is gone. The same could be said for the debtors unless we get a choice to hold back on our contribution to only a certain percentage.

Click to shrink...

This is in reference to starting a new settlement. Stretching our armed forces thin covering a war, new territory AND coralling slaves is asking for collapse

I vehemently disagree. Considering that the QM himself said that we stood a chance of collapsing during this turn due to getting our shit kicked in, only being saved due to Priits efforts to turn the tide, I very well believe that spending actions to found a settlement is much better than risking a potential war in the future that could be turned against us especially as this Island is a key position. These are things the QM has mentioned before.

Action economy or efficiency matters less to me as I believe taking a short term cost here is worth it for the longer term implications.

Click to shrink...

Outright reversed. We risked SOCIAL collapse. This is WORSENED by additional settlements. Tall civs rarely collapse. Wide ones collapse as part of their lifecycle as differences between settlements widen.

They couldn't damage us through the walls. WE damaged ourselves

 

[SpeckofStardust]

That's the value of going tall and being a civ of disaster preppers; when the climate decides to shit on everything, we have the best chances of coming out smelling like roses.

Click to shrink...

No, Wide is better for that, after all Tall civs get overran all the time, Tall is better for social problems not natural/physical ones.

 

[Japanime]

It is you who misunderstands MY point. I get that all these things have changed; I'm saying that the only net influence on my plans for infrastructure building is the added action cost of Stone age law. That's why I made the plans so vague in the first place.

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I wasn't talking about YOUR plans specifically when I made my arguments, I don't know how you came to that conclusion, but I was instead using the term we to refer to the collective mood at the time in general, where if you haven't noticed we don't really seem to have much of a collective plan, let alone are following YOUR plan, regarding infrastructure building.

Especially considering the fact that the plans mostly around here hinge around the Word of QM.

Most crises have at least one blatant stability preserving option. We just have to remember to always hammer that one in times of crisis.

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Easier said than done considering how little more than half of the voters bungled that crisis into near oblivion last time, where it didn't become obvious that they were voting for a judgement that not only contradicted our values but was also hilariously unjust at the same time.

In that case we have to fight a war whether or not we take the settlement this turn, and gain almost nothing from losing those 7 actions. Sure, it would improve our chances in such a war, but I would argue that, say, locking in Train Warriors and Promote Folk Wrestling would provide a bigger bonus than one more fort.

Click to shrink...

I am not saying we need to take the settlement this turn, merely to do so while we still have the chance before say the Island Makers grab it and make it almost impossible for us to nab it back.

Furthermore assuming we could lock down the island so long as have the population, we can likely hold down said island indefinitely as our brick walls are still rather impenetrable until the bronze age. So again I disagree with you.

This is in reference to starting a new settlement. Stretching our armed forces thin covering a war, new territory AND coralling slaves is asking for collapse

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That's assuming we're even going to take them as debtors. Seeing how vassalage is currently in the lead, that changes the entire dynamic of things as we likely won't have the economy to support the construction of a new settlement without stability issues.

Outright reversed. We risked SOCIAL collapse. This is WORSENED by additional settlements. Tall civs rarely collapse. Wide ones collapse as part of their lifecycle as differences between settlements widen.

They couldn't damage us through the walls. WE damaged ourselves

Click to shrink...

Yes? And? The point I was trying to make with that statement was not that taking the island would prevent us from specifically having another potential SOCIETAL collapse occur, rather it was more broadly intended to state that it is better to settle the island than risk a war where any number of horrible things could befall us, which is why I have made repeated references to the QM's mention of what controlling the two fertile areas would mean.

This being the key phrase:

You should also think about whether you want to dominate Rahu Bay and the lands south of it in the west or control the White River's flood plain in the east. If you don't go for either, the Faction that gets one of them will be able to snap you over their knee.

Click to shrink...

 

[racnor]

I wasn't talking about YOUR plans specifically when I made my arguments, I don't know how you came to that conclusion, but I was instead using the term we to refer to the collective mood at the time in general, where if you haven't noticed we don't really seem to have much of a collective plan, let alone are following YOUR plan, regarding infrastructure building.

Especially considering the fact that the plans mostly around here hinge around the Word of QM.

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"Plan" was probably the wrong word. "Intent to spam infrastructure" would be more fitting.

Easier said than done considering how little more than half of the voters bungled that crisis into near oblivion last time, where it didn't become obvious that they were voting for a judgement that not only contradicted our values but was also hilariously unjust at the same time.

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That was because our focus was not primarily on maintaining stability. We are now far more aware of the risks of poking at instability in the middle of a war, and would probably not make the same mistake again.

Furthermore assuming we could lock down the island so long as have the population, we can likely hold down said island indefinitely as our brick walls are still rather impenetrable until the bronze age. So again I disagree with you.

Click to shrink...

If we DO get dragged into a war via diplo fail, then the fingers can serve as our fortified bastion in the area already.

 

[Japanime]

"Plan" was probably the wrong word. "Intent to spam infrastructure" would be more fitting.

Click to shrink...

At this point everyone is most likely in agreement that we are stuck with going tall. I am not against going for more infrastructure, in fact I would prefer we finish all the Temples first before doing the hills, mostly due to the fact that I believe building up a solid priesthood will benefit us more right now that a motte would. The main reason I want to settle on the island there on the White River is to essentially stake our claim in a limited fashion, to prevent someone like the Island Makers from claiming it from us instead.

The main point I am trying to advocate here is not that we should go wide. No, we're already we past that point already. Instead I merely want to posit that we should take the opportunity if possible to seize the island while we still can, and then locking in infrastructure afterwards, as I doubt by the time we lock down Hills and Temples that the island itself will not be taken by another in the many generations.

While I acknowledge the difficulties in doing this, due to the chances of being drawn into the Peace Builder's War either next turn or the turn after, I believe it's importance as a whole for us should still be restated.

That was because our focus was not primarily on maintaining stability. We are now far more aware of the risks of poking at instability in the middle of a war, and would probably not make the same mistake again.

Click to shrink...

I would hope not, however I won't bet on us not cutting off our nose to spite our face again.

If we DO get dragged into a war via diplo fail, then the fingers can serve as our fortified bastion in the area already.

Click to shrink...

That was never in doubt, however the Fingers don't give us a larger radius of control to exploit the fertile White River Flood Plains that the QM mentioned.

 

[racnor]

At this point everyone is most likely in agreement that we are stuck with going tall. I am not against going for more infrastructure, in fact I would prefer we finish all the Temples first before doing the hills, mostly due to the fact that I believe building up a solid priesthood will benefit us more right now that a motte would. The main reason I want to settle on the island there on the White River is to essentially stake our claim in a limited fashion, to prevent someone like the Island Makers from claiming it from us instead.

The main point I am trying to advocate here is not that we should go wide. No, we're already we past that point already. Instead I merely want to posit that we should take the opportunity if possible to seize the island while we still can, and then locking in infrastructure afterwards, as I doubt by the time we lock down Hills and Temples that the island itself will not be taken by another in the many generations.

While I acknowledge the difficulties in doing this, due to the chances of being drawn into the Peace Builder's War either next turn or the turn after, I believe it's importance as a whole for us should still be restated.

Click to shrink...

I have no response to this that I have not already said, so I'll let my previous posts on this angle stand.

That was never in doubt, however the Fingers don't give us a larger radius of control to exploit the fertile White River Flood Plains that the QM mentioned.

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This was in regards to that specific argument train of "we can wait until the enemy is vulnerable before striking at the island"->"Diplo failures can cause wars at times we don't want"->"In a war we don't want, having the island doesn't benefit us as much as just improving our army by 6 actions would"->"It would serve as a defensible location"

 

[Japanime]

I have no response to this that I have not already said, so I'll let my previous posts on this angle stand.

Click to shrink...

Fair enough, my points still stand.

This was in regards to that specific argument train of "we can wait until the enemy is vulnerable before striking at the island"->"Diplo failures can cause wars at times we don't want"->"In a war we don't want, having the island doesn't benefit us as much as just improving our army by 6 actions would"->"It would serve as a defensible location"

Click to shrink...

Ahh I see then. Well then just to clarify on what my point actually is regarding this chain. Yes, the island would serve as a defensible location but would likely be outweighed by spending 6 actions on the army in a war, however if we are able to sufficiently control the island during peace time I believe that it's general status as granting control over the fertile plains will help us more over the long run through economics, specifically improving our econ tiers if we choose to invest in agriculture enough to lock some of it in, that if we control it that will allow us to take more actions over the long run.

In any case I think this argument has run it's course as the actual settlement of the islands relies on too many unresolved factors right now. Firstly we don't even know if it's open right now. Secondly, we will likely need more econ tiers through taking the debtor option, which as of now has not yet been closed. Thirdly we do not know whether or not we are ging to war soon in the near future. Finally, we have yet to see if more pressing problems have appeared, or more pressing actions are needed.

Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Jun 6, 2018 at 5:12 PM, finished with 60 posts and 27 votes.

• ---

  14 people have voted

  [X] [Victory] Take the Northlanders under the People's wing. (???)

  • Orisha91
  • racnor
  • sam5447
  • Cariyaga
  • Marlin
  • Timewinders
  • FortTell
  • mcclay
  • sunrise
  • wingstrike96
  • Pyre
  • Kelenas
  • zac1
  • Professor Vesca

  25 people have voted

  [X] [Adult] Adulthood has grown beyond hunters and mothers. Let people be recognized by others in their profession.

  • Ghostdevil
  • Sol Zagato
  • ALanos
  • LucidProp
  • RandomDwarf
  • Twiggierjet
  • maximillian
  • Japanime
  • Orisha91
  • racnor
  • sam5447
  • Cariyaga
  • Marlin
  • Timewinders
  • FortTell
  • mcclay
  • sunrise
  • wingstrike96
  • Pyre
  • veekie
  • StarkDemise
  • Kelenas
  • zac1
  • Professor Vesca
  • PLP

  13 people have voted

  [X] [Victory] Take the Northlanders into the People as Debtors. (+3 Tiers of Economy)

  • Ghostdevil
  • Sol Zagato
  • ALanos
  • LucidProp
  • RandomDwarf
  • Twiggierjet
  • maximillian
  • Japanime
  • kilopi505
  • Rafin
  • zac1
  • Professor Vesca
  • PLP

  3 people have voted

  [X] [Victory] Return things to how they were before the war. (Trade Mission: Northlands)

  • veekie
  • StarkDemise
  • Kelenas

  2 people have voted

  [X] [Adult] Gender complex, like the spirits. There are women-who-are-men and men-who-are-women and they should recieve the gender appropriate trial (+1 Stability)

  • kilopi505
  • Rafin

  2 people have voted

  [X] [Adult] The franchise should be expanded: recognized Shaman (including members of Holy Orders) may speak as adults.

  • Rafin
  • PLP

  1 people have voted

  [x] [Adult] The current trials, are sufficient but too restricted; recognize adults by parenthood or by food contribution without respect to gender. (+1 Stability)

  • Kelenas

  1 people have voted

  [X] [Adult] Some positions generate implicit adulthood: the winner of an election to be head of a longhouse or Big Man is automatically an adult.

  • Rafin

 

[racnor]

Fair enough, my points still stand.



Ahh I see then. Well then just to clarify on what my point actually is regarding this chain. Yes, the island would serve as a defensible location but would likely be outweighed by spending 6 actions on the army in a war, however if we are able to sufficiently control the island during peace time I believe that it's general status as granting control over the fertile plains will help us more over the long run through economics, specifically improving our econ tiers if we choose to invest in agriculture enough to lock some of it in, that if we control it that will allow us to take more actions over the long run.

In any case I think this argument has run it's course as the actual settlement of the islands relies on too many unresolved factors right now. Firstly we don't even know if it's open right now. Secondly, we will likely need more econ tiers through taking the debtor option, which as of now has not yet been closed. Thirdly we do not know whether or not we are ging to war soon in the near future. Finally, we have yet to see if more pressing problems have appeared, or more pressing actions are needed.

Click to shrink...

Fair.I think we're both out of things to say anyway.

 

[Pyre]

[X] [Victory] Take the Northlanders under the People's wing. (???)
[X] [Adult] Adulthood has grown beyond hunters and mothers. Let people be recognized by others in their profession.

 

[Redium]

I didn't even think anything of him being 15 and with a woman. I did see the emphasis on 'boy' but I didn't pick up the hint that 'girl' was never used to refer to his wife.

And we basically ruled that she did nothing wrong before her son was revealed as not being his.

So with most of the men dying off and the younger boys heading off to war, I take it this type of behavior has grown. I guess the peacebuilder men who stayed behind have curtailed this behavior by simply being available suitors?

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If you had punished the woman, Priit wouldn't have been as mad at you, but it wouldn't have set a good precedent. You would've punished her for something that wasn't truly a crime as we think of it. You needed to really investigate in order to really hammer on why her behaviour was not okay.

The Peace Builder warriors who stayed behind have helped you quite a bit. Currently, about 10% of your population can be trained as warriors and called up to fight at any one time. Over time, this is going to go down as equipment costs increases and the unit cost of each additional warrior goes up. This 10% is heavily concentrated within the male 15-45 bracket; of them, you lost about 1 in 3 men. Even taking into account the mortality from childbirth and the deaths of female warriors, you have 3 marriageable women for every two men. Polygamy is super common this generation; virtually every family has a son with at least two wives. You also absorbed a large influx of Peace Builder warriors. Right now about 15% of your warriors were born Peace Builders. 5% of the People over all.

So in essence we would be reforming the Trials and decentralizing it correct? Would this form formal organizations like guilds of professions that set standards with which the trials are administered? Or would this be more like apprenticeships?

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This would be two or three steps before guilds. It would be formalized apprenticeships at best.

Also what is the distinction on why certain arguments grant stability compared to the others? What determines that?

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Three main factors: 1) it's really popular among the general public, 2) it promotes general order/social control, or 3) it appeals to tradition.

So shamans can't influence the direction of a conversation but they can input advice? That's what this seems like to me.

What if the conversation is on a topic inherently related to them such as magic or the spirits?

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Yes.

Everything is magic. You don't have any concept of non-magic phenomena. Everything has a dualistic spiritual and physical cause. Somethings are more magical than others; weather, sickness, birth and death, etc.

Well that's not too surprising considering how primitive we are but I'm guessing everyone else around us has similar problems of their own right?

How did that Amazonian tribe even function like that?

Click to shrink...

Sort of? Socialites tend to be at their most violent when they are horticulturalists/early agriculturalists. Every one is horrifically murder happy, but outside of South Lake, Bond Breakers, and Mountain Clans (in roughly that order) you are the most violent on an intra-tribal level.

So what does fanatic give the Peace Builders?

Also, when it comes to improving our concepts to retain hardened how far are we away from unlocking either formal apprenticeships or training by ordeal as it seems like we're not too far off. As it seems we already have informal apprenticeships for warriors and training by ordeal was a previous option.

So @Redium when you say we are about to fight a lot of wars, is that referencing conflicts with the tribes to the south of the Peace Builders?

Because that's what I'm guessing you are referring to. Or does the a lot also include the Mountain Clans as well?

Furthermore how does the fact that we chose not to recall our young Builders and the Ember Eyes from the Pearl Divers affect us next turn?

Click to shrink...

Near unbreakable morale. Normally, there's penalties for losing to many raid actions, but fanatic lets them ignore it.

You'll pick up either apprenticeships or mystery cults in turn 18.0.

Yes, and the Mountain Clans.

That will come up in 18.0; you've run across a new Status type: Spiritual/Technical Advisors. Basically, it has a chance of converting their cultural Values to yours each turn. It also allows the society to instantly replace one of their values with yours by choice and not have to role randomly.

So they're about to collapse then? Is there any specific direction they are collapsing in as it seems like it should be in the direction of Arrow Lake or the Island Makers due to them causing the collapse.

Click to shrink...

They are going to explode everywhere. There's no organization in a collapsing civilization.

Out of curiosity how many blood brothers does Priit have?

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Six: Nihkuko, Alloo, one Arrow Lake member (mostly for political reasons, Priit doesn't consider him as close as the other five) and three of the People; one from each settlement.

Was she unique in her defection? So much so that others became more likely to defect with her, or was she the only one?

I'm curious to know if we have options to make them debtors or to vassalize them because of her.

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Alloo wasn't unique, but there were very, very few defectors. Can count on one hand many.

Alloo will affect the options that you would get from vassalization. You'd have options about how exactly vassalization works over the next few phases.

So are the Peace Builders fighting their wars a conscious decision to winnow down their under 35 crowd or is that just an unintended feature?

How enticing are we to the rest of the Peace Builders considering how easy it is for our tribe members to be seen as adults?

Aside from the right to being heard is there anything specific associated with being seen as an adult under the Peace Builders?

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It's unintended. They want to stop, but the south is a Thunderdome with five possible enemies for them to fight. It's the crab bucket mentality writ large.

Less than you think. The Skalds are fantastic on social control. The Peace Builders are also far more polygynous than you. Many more of their men die in combat so the ratio of young women to young men is much higher. Basically every warrior in the Peace Builders could have a second or third wife if they wanted; most regular men have a better than not chance of having a second wife too.

Nah, Peace Builders recognize adults purely on the merits of age.

Why is that?

Also were some of the detriments changed to match or were they seen as still sufficient to counterbalance it?

Click to shrink...

A flat 50% boost to basically all of your actions was simply too much for a level 3 trait.

The costs have been halved (+25% to 12.5%), but that's it. You still have to take an action marked Supernal Symphony every turn to avoid a Stability Hit.

What other methods can we use to increase centralization that doesn't require us to rewrite the law code in order to perpetrate an injustice?

Will the Stone Age Law megaproject suffice?

Click to shrink...

Anything the centralizes power in the hands of a few. It's hard to say; it depends on what actions come up in the future.

Depends how it's written. It could for sure.

So there's a chance they could collapse then?

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They wouldn't Collpase and disappear as a faction, but they would be defunct for generations.

So assuming they have children, will those children who are born to debtors essentially be born as free members of the People?

Also, as a reminder, we have rules in place to prevent abuse of debtors right? As I remember they do get fed and such so it's not abject slavery right?

Click to shrink...

They would be born free.

Priit would personally skin anyone who abused a Debtor alive. He would flay them in the town square and pour salt in the wounds; it would take days for them to die. You do have protections for Debtos, dependent on how the Big Man treats them, but Priit would be very against abuse and Alloo would drive some further sympathy into his head.

So what exactly does vassalization entail here? What exactly will this do to the Northlands and what do we need to do to support our vassal?

Click to shrink...

You would have options in future turns to flesh out how exactly it works.

How did we gain so much stability out of curiosity as it seems like we were in a hole there?

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You got +1 for fighting the Northlands and +1 for winning the war so handily/serving to uphold Retributive Justice/Flat Arrow Outlook. Acting in accordance with your Values is popular and tends to give Stab.

@Redium Would the Peace Builders approve of us taking the Northlanders under our wing? Would that give us any diplomatic bonuses with them?

Click to shrink...

They wouldn't care.

-The Northlands riding moose is magic, for being able to make a beast move where you want, to stay upon its back at a gallop.

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Caribou, also known as reindeer in Europe. Moose would actually be extremely painful to ride; their gait is kind of a jumping lope so riding one would cause the rider to bounce every step and have a tendency of being throw forward and back with each step.

Interestingly enough, it seems the gathering section was updated considerably. I'm kind of curious as to why, such as whether it was due to any action on our part, but it seems like in general we have a wide variety of food sources to choose from.

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It wasn't anything on your part, I was just double checking which plants should be available to Not!Canada. I was just checking to see what would be available for future development.

Good news: you can make wine, brandy, and maple sugar/syrup! You have a large variety of fruits and berries available to preserve.

Bad news: spices are going to be very rare. The only flavours you have are: maple, licorice (fermented balsamroot), artificial vanilla (beaver butt glands), fireweed (not tobacco despite the name) tea, and mint (wintergreen/evergreen). Europe alone has 2-3 times as many native spices. Second, you are very hard up for root vegetables until you eventually pick up the potato. Third, you have very few edible greens: aside from fiddleheads, the most common is dandelion. Honeybees also went extinct in the New World before human habitation.

You really want to pick up Squash and Beans if at all possible. A nut-bearing tree, balsamroot and sunflowers next.

Vote Closed!​

[X] [Victory] Take the Northlanders under the People's wing. (???)
[X] [Adult] Adulthood has grown beyond hunters and mothers. Let people be recognized by others in their profession.