Verminfiends - Canon - Chimeraguard
Awesome omake Eva.

Here's my own omake by my own talk about the Verminlords.

Verminfiends


The first of the Horned Rat's Daemons to appear on the mortal plane were, to the misfortune of many Grey Seers who attempted the summonings, the enigmatic and proud Verminlords. Simultaneously majestic yet disgusting, powerful and cunning, with a mind filled with a series of plots, they, more than anything else, were the grand manifestation of the Skaven Underempire: awe-inspiring in power, yet horrific in its form, supremely confident in their inevitable ascension.

Nevertheless, these same traits made their summoning dangerous. So, as the End Times progressed, it was no surprise that the Grey Seers began the "search" for the Lesser Daemons of the Horned Rat. And eventually, to the dismay of the rest of the world, they found them.

They were emaciated things, as tall as an Orc Big 'Un, yet skinny to the bone, in the shape of an abnormally large, elongated Skaven. Their furred skin was threadbare, and matted with scars, pustules, and sores. Their limbs clutched rusted, serrated, faded-green blades that looked like they had been misused and abused for centuries. At a first glance, they seemed miserable, pathetic, and many dismissed as odd-looking, but hardly a threat. They were fools to do so.

In battle, it was a very different story. Their eyes went alert, their postures sharp and coordinated, their red and green eyes would pour over the lines of their foes with acuteness. In a burst of frantic speed they dash towards their targets, all pretense of weakness gone as they pinpoint the slightest weak point and pounce on it mercilessly in a storm of chittering shrieks, crawling under shield walls, lanky arms grabbing foes with unnatural strength, blades melting armor like acid, and warpstone-encrusted teeth biting into flesh. Larger creatures are beset as if by a pack of hunters, stabbing, dashing, cutting, biting.

If they are not the manifestation of the power of the Under-Empire, perhaps they are something more basic. They are the at the core of every Skaven, of the vast teeming hordes. Weak appearing, pathetic, starving, unnatural, looked down upon by their betters and individually unimpressive, and yet together possibly the greatest threat one could have the misfortune of encountering. They are savage, they are intelligent, they are relentless.

They are the Verminfiends.


OOC: As the Skaven Lesser Daemon, I wanted the Verminfiends to be call backs to what the average Skaven are at the core. The average Skaven is a starving, abused, cowardly Clanrat looked down upon as meaningless by both his superiors, and his enemies. But together, in groups, in battle, they are the relentless Vermintide, swarming around enemies, finding weak points, and plunging into them with savage fervor hidden beneath that wretched body. For all the Skaven are constantly backstabbing, one of the big things about Clanrats is the courage and ferocity they gain from being with others of their kind, even if that courage is based in their own selfishness of having others to serve as meatshields.

I'm thinking that the Verminfiends would be individually weaker than other Lesser Daemons, but they'd be better at co-ordinating in groups/packs and are more numerous. Not because they share any real brotherhood or camaraderie, but because they know that's the way to best overcome and kill their prey.
 
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Very, very nice, gentlefolk. EVA's was really nice and atmospheric and actually captured the character of Thanquol as well as, or better even, than I have so far. And Chimera's Verminfiends saved me a lot of work in designing the lesser daemons of the Horned Rat - I had an idea that was similar to them, but it's gratifying that I can basically take those and run with it. There's even gameplay notes at the end!

I'll have the Question's answer out in probably a few hours at max - I've got family visiting right now but they're likely to go to bed early.
 
Very, very nice, gentlefolk. EVA's was really nice and atmospheric and actually captured the character of Thanquol as well as, or better even, than I have so far. And Chimera's Verminfiends saved me a lot of work in designing the lesser daemons of the Horned Rat - I had an idea that was similar to them, but it's gratifying that I can basically take those and run with it. There's even gameplay notes at the end!

I'll have the Question's answer out in probably a few hours at max - I've got family visiting right now but they're likely to go to bed early.
Hey thanks a lot! The guys certainly did the Estalian fanmade army book better than Cathaya or Nippon. They actually remembered this isn't just Fantasy!IRLCountry.

And seeing as I couldn't find any mention of the woman in canonical sources like those relating to the events above, I figured the fan army book info was good enough.

I was surprised at just how clear a connection there was between her and the Skaven. As is, I'm hoping that if we do choose to hunt down the woman it's for more than random reasons, and I figured if Thanquol was really using his cunning and whatever weird stuff is happening to him, it fit that he could put the pieces together.
 
End Times 1: The Verminking's Answer
[X] How does the mind of Greasus Goldtooth work, and how can we influence him to attack Cathay?

The Verminking stared unblinkingly at Thanquol as the Underlord formed his question. "The ogre," he began, "The large-fat one. I saw-spied him from afar once in my travels. Enough fat on him to feed-feed an entire warren, but I spied-scried him not at Zharr-Naggrund. Too busy-busy playing at being king of the hill, no doubt, but I have-have a use for him. My eyes look-look to the dragonthing's land, and see-see opportunity. Tell me, Verminking, what drives fat-fat Greasus? How does his mind work-operate? How-how can I convince him to drive-push the dragonthing's western lands into anarchy?"

The Verminlord stood utterly still for several seconds as it absorbed the question. "A wise-smart question," he boomed as he incised a wound in reality with his sword. "More, I admit, than I thought-expected from you. Come. I will show-explain." With that, he stepped into the glowing green rift and vanished, leaving Thanquol little choice but to follow. The Underlord momentarily paused to take a hefty hit of warpstone dust before hopping into the vortex, which promptly closed, leaving only an afterimage behind to indicate that it had ever been there.

Thanquol couldn't quite discern where he was. It was dark, nearly too dark for even his skaven eyes to see, and he felt crowded, an alien feeling for any skaven, who spent their lives shoulder-to-shoulder with their kin. "Come," came the voice of Skreech Verminking, and the darkness receded a little, allowing Thanquol to see the daemon, standing tall above the ... by the Horned God, those were rats. Rats that made up the floor and walls and ceiling of this place, rats lurking within the shadows of larger rats and stepping across their smaller kin. Rats everywhere, scurrying around the Verminking's feet but never touching him, crawling up him with greedy green eyes. He could hear their voices whispering gently to him, whispering terrible things. There were other things than the rats here, he could sense them. Things almost like him. But there was no time to ruminate on where he was, for the Verminking was walking away and this place was unfriendly even with his terrible majesty around. Thanquol followed, snatching fleeting glances of the tunnels as they made their way through them.

Everywhere there were eyes, hungry yet fearful, and the chittering of the inhabitants speaking to each other was deafening in its quietness. The Verminking and the Underlord made their way swiftly through the tunnels, and at some point they were outside, in a formless expanse of ... something. Skreech Verminking led the way, his intent shaping reality to the path to ... there he was. Tradelord Greasus Tribestealer Drakecrush Hoardmaster Goldtooth the Shockingly Obese, his slumbering form so large compared to his gnoblar servants that he seemed like a hill of flab. "He appears all fat-gut and small-brain, but do not look at his appearance." With a wave of the Verminking's claw and ... something, they no longer looked at the ogre himself, but gazed upon his memories. The two of them watched the Tradelord's life unfold, from his childhood when he had driven three of his brothers into starvation by extorting their food away from them, to when he killed and ate his father, thus becoming the Tyrant of his tribe. Throughout the memories shown the ogre displayed something greater than the rest of his kin - sheer animal cunning was in abundance in the Mountains of Mourne, but Greasus showed forethought, intelligence, planning. It was these qualities that enabled him to attain dominance over the rest of the tribes, to retrieve the Scepter of the Titans and the crown he wore that sharpened his intellect yet further. As they watched, the young ogre grew bigger and fatter and more successful, and the more he grew, the brighter his eyes shone with ambition.

"He has a predator's heart," explained Skreech Verminking. "Gift-bribing him with currency and riches will do little, for he now looks-gazes beyond the basics of civilization and wants-desires more. You will need to treat-treat with him as you would a nation, for his hunger is the size of one. Lands and power are his currency now, yes-yes, not mere trinkets like gold or food. Not anymore. The tribes you bought-cheated into invading the Dark Lands did so because they could not see-see beyond the expanse of food you gave-bartered to them. This one will require something greater to follow-follow your designs and attack Cathay. An assured way to make a profit, to expand-grow his power, to become not merely the Overtyrant of a few dozen groups of near-close gluttons, but something ... more."

Before the two of them Greasus slumbered atop a pile of his gnoblar servants, his mind set on bigger and better things, and not merely how to acquire them, masses of gold and silver and food, but gather and produce them, to form something better than a mere tribe. Something more advanced, dedicated solely to his own aggrandizement.
 
So....Greasus needs clay gifts?
Mmmm. If he did settle in Cathay, he would be fighting Chaos hordes, japanese and others. Promising him help with grabbing cathayan land might be of use.
Another possible way would be gifting him part of Dark Lands surface - they are big enough to give him something, and Skaven don't need surface all that much. Besides, after he gets in fight with Chaos and the like we can always revoke those lands.
Additionally, I doubt ninja will be unable to kill him with Skaven help.

Soo...give lands/industial help + help get Cathay land + prepare plans for getting him to fight Chaos and assassination (or making ninja assassinate him to drive Nippon and ogres to war)?
 
Cool, we earned a smidgen of approval from Verminking.

So, not too unexpectedly Greassus is not a simplistic target of manipulation.

Wonder if it might be simpler to give the information to Sleek or whoever might be better based on this new information and let him handle the rest without micro-managing...
 
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Think out best bet may be offering him land, probably in Cathay, since the Dark Lands is a giant wasteland. Also offer him trade deals of well-made weapons and armor, maybe even infustrial "advisors" in exchange for aid.

It'd be good for us to, since our holdings in the Dark Lands would gain a buffer in the East from the Hung.

We could put this forward as a proposal between equals, as fellow nations both wanting to expand their holdings, and neutralize a threat in the form of the renewed Cathay. A triple alliance of Skaven, Ogres, and Nippon.

Man, that sounds pretty cool actually.
 
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Think out best bet may be offering him land, probably in Cathay, since the Dark Lands is a giant wasteland. Also offer him trade deals of well-made weapons and armor, maybe even infustrial "advisors" in exchange for aid.

It'd be good for us to, since our holdings in the Dark Lands would gain a buffer in the East from the Hung.

We could put this forward as a proposal between equals, as fellow nations both wanting to expand their holdings, and neutralize a threat in the form of the renewed Cathay. A triple alliance of Skaven, Ogres, and Nippon.

Man, that sounds pretty cool actually.
I assume this is with the caveat of it being a trick?

This entire operation is made with the idea of fucking over Nippon, Mourne, and Cathay that we might seize it all. I simply can't accept such a thing as getting nothing from it.

We can argue the reasons, maybe share some secrets on plans to embroil Cathay in war with others and pass it as an opportunity for Greassus, but he's not getting our rightful land. He's a tool in the end for the Great Ascendancy.
 
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I assume this is with the caveat of it being a trick?

This entire operation is made with the idea of fucking over Nippon, Mourne, and Cathay that we might seize it all. I simply can't accept such a thing as getting nothing from it.

We can argue the reasons, maybe share some secrets on plans to embroil Cathay in war with others and pass it as an opportunity for Greassus, but he's not getting our rightful land. He's a tool in the end for the Great Ascendancy.
In general yes. First though I'd like to use Nippon and the Ogres as meat shields to take the brunt of the initial Hung and Kurgan assaults.

I imagine we'd initially propose this as a plan to decisively defeat, then partition up Cathay between us three, then use our combined might to stop the Chaos and Hobgoblin forces in the area from being a threat to us. We'd manipulate things so Nippon and Greassus do as much of the heavy lifting as possible, better they lose forces and commit actions than the Skaven.

Then, after all other threats in the region are largely dealt with and the other two are weakened, we'd commit our Sudden But Inevitable Betrayal. I want to get as much mileage out of them as possible, but our goal is to be the sole rulers of the world, so once they've served their purpose, they're gone.
 
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Think out best bet may be offering him land, probably in Cathay, since the Dark Lands is a giant wasteland. Also offer him trade deals of well-made weapons and armor, maybe even infustrial "advisors" in exchange for aid.

It'd be good for us to, since our holdings in the Dark Lands would gain a buffer in the East from the Hung.

We could put this forward as a proposal between equals, as fellow nations both wanting to expand their holdings, and neutralize a threat in the form of the renewed Cathay. A triple alliance of Skaven, Ogres, and Nippon.

Man, that sounds pretty cool actually.

Personally I would like to hint at the boundless wealth of food and gold that Cathy has and the weakness of their armies and you know what Tyrant-King of Cathy sounds like a nice title.

We make no promises of assistance and send ogres against Cathy (with possible Nippon assistance) in a war that would weaken them both while we pick off the winners at a later time. This frees us up from having to dedicate armies to a costly enterprise, until later.
 
We could put this forward as a proposal between equals, as fellow nations both wanting to expand their holdings, and neutralize a threat in the form of the renewed Cathay. A triple alliance of Skaven, Ogres, and Nippon.
Nippon's not going to agree to that and we don't want to tell the Ogres anything along those lines in case they spill anything with their stupid mouths. It should look from Nippon's perspective that the Ogres are just conveniently also causing trouble, not that the Skaven are powerbrokering to carve up Cathay, because that's the kind of thing that gets people thinking.

Personally I would like to hint at the boundless wealth of food and gold that Cathy has and the weakness of their armies and you know what Tyrant-King of Cathy sounds like a nice title.

We make no promises of assistance and send ogres against Cathy (with possible Nippon assistance) in a war that would weaken them both while we pick off the winners at a later time. This frees us up from having to dedicate armies to a costly enterprise, until later.
Yes, I think being too overt here with wanting to directly give them land Cathay controls is probably a mistake. Instead, do intel drops or casual conversations about the paucity of the Dark Lands and the richness of Cathay and how their armies have degraded and grown fat with peace. If we can then trigger a preemptive attack from western Cathay and weaken said strike before it hits to reinforce that story, they're basically wide open at that point.

Or, as EVA says, we could leave it in the hands of the assigned Hero to figure out how best to use this information.
 
To start off, Cathay is the logical choice to attack. We point out the proven ability to support a large population, the great civilizations built there, maybe hint at Cathay being a little preoccupied with certain things making a sudden invasion that much more likely to succeed (Nippon, Chaos tribes, etc), without truly revealing our own involvement, etc.

Not personally though, I'd like to leave the main details to whoever is on site.
 
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All right, next update based on past discussions and the Greassus answer...

2 Authority - Researching newly acquired Chaos Dwarf technologies
  • Chaos Dwarf War Machines - Skyre, Mors (Gnawdell), USA + Drazhoath cooperate to research these. Skyre has the lead on understanding the technology through Drazhoath's guidance, Mors and USA should work together to figure out how best to incorporate the new technologies into their militaries as well as continuing their previous synergy and elite unit creation exercises
  • Chaos Dwarf Wargear - Mors, USA, and the Warpfang Bank cooperate to unlock the secrets of their making and, more importantly, distribute far and wide to Skavenkind to improve all Stormvermin-class gear, with trickledown effects as appropriate
  • Daemonbinding - Thanquol (personal action)
2 Authority - Secure the Vaults/Grey/Black Mountains from Dragon Ogres
  • Taurus Mutation Tree - Moulder (Stitch) should assimilate these and churn out strong prototypes and experimental batches for rapid data acquisition as part of cleansing operations
  • Cleanse the Dragon Ogres - Moulder warbeasts (including newly researched specimens) take the lead with the USA (Sleek Sharpwit) and Grey Seers providing combined arms support to defeat the newly awoken Dragon Ogres
3 Authority - Secure the Dark Lands, rebuild damaged forces from the invasion, and build new infrastructure for settlements. Enhance border security against known enemy directions (such as east towards the Mountains of Mourne) and information security to prevent passerbies or dedicated infiltrators from realizing the Dark Lands have changed hands.
  • All clans may receive enclaves in the Dark Lands as part of a new grand Skaven Empire but first priority selection goes with who contributed and lost the most in the operation, starting with Mors. Skrisnik Goldfang and Verminkin are nominally in charge and should work together to improve efficiency and speed of moving and construction for all clans.
  • Clan training, especially those rebuilding their forces en-masse (Mors, Eshin, etc), should use the Tear Beneath The Daemon's Stump and the Labyrinth Beneath Uzkulak as proving grounds, with bonuses to up and comers who work together with their fellow Skaven to achieve success, especially across Clan lines
  • Use the fresh start and construction to start spreading hygiene to other Clans and doing layouts in such a way to support this under Horripila's guidance through Morbag One-Eye. Pestilens territories are exempt for obvious reasons, though if they want to learn to set up certain areas as disease focused and certain areas as cleaner they are free to.
4 Authority - Increase infiltration in the East, goad the major powers into war with each other, and weaken all involved.
  • Increase fear in Nippon of Cathay and influence them to unify and to launch a preemptive land invasion of Cathay as their only chance at holding back its upcoming invasion. Offer hiring of Eshin assassins to weaken garrisons (through mass poisoning, selective removal of officers, etc) prior to their invasion occurring - Eshin (Veskit)
  • Increase fear in western Cathay of Ogres in Mountains of Mourne and convince them that it would be in their best interests to launch a preemptive attack to turn back an upcoming invasion. Successful officers would naturally win glory and prestige inside Cathay. Weaken the attack after it is underway if one is triggered. Look for information on the Dragon Emperor's whereabouts as a secondary objective. - Eshin w/ Squeakless Snouts (Thugclaw) consulting for help with interrogations and to identify which officers are most inclined to go off the reservation for glory
  • Make Cathay appear to be the most appealing target for Ogres in the Mountains of Mourne and influence them to launch an invasion in that direction for land acquisition and nation building, whether through bribery, faking intelligence, dropping real intelligence covertly or overtly, faking attacks, etc. Give the Skaven in charge the scrying results on Greassus' motivations and mindset. - Eshin w/ Warpfang Bank (Sleek Oilfur) consulting to help incentivize the Ogres
  • Make more dedicated resources available to help Eshin rebuild their ranks in order to meet their responsibilities in a timely fashion - Sneek overseeing efforts
1 Authority - Increase infiltration in Nekehara to prepare for future operations in the area
  • Identify places of power in Nekehara and major players, increase knowledge of undead and anti-undead tactics - Rictus (Tretch Craventail)
1 Authority - Find and eliminate potential problem in Estalia
  • Locate the mysterious woman previously spotted, determine her identity and actions, and capture or kill her if necessary (agent's prerogative) for fear of her being a hidden problem - Eshin (Snikch)

Changelog:
Removed 1 Authority from research, changed Thanquol to Daemonbinding as his personal action. Removed Grey Seers from Chaos Dwarf War Machines research. Unselected Sleek Sharpwit due to lacking Authority. Adjusted wording specificity on the Mors/USA section.
Added Dragon Ogre cleansing operation, w/ Moulder Taurus research and combat action
Removed 1 authority from Eastern actions and eliminated Pestilens action. Swapped Veskit in for Snikch in eastern Cathay/Nippon. Adjusted/added more wording to Mourne subaction.
Removed 1 authority from Araby and eliminated action
Added Estalia theoretical anti-Myrmidia action
 
Although, with this information in our hands, it may be better and more efficient to not try and push Cathay against the Ogres-a daunting prospect in the first place, the journey itself is hell for large armies, never mind the actual invasion-we instead just focus on Greassus against Cathay.

I don't want to spread ourselves too much. I say if we're going after maybe!Myrmidia, leavevthe Vaults be and don't drag the USA/Mors from the Dark Lands.

Keep the Pestilens ops on Cathay, but I say change the target to the heartlands or near the Bastion.

Maybe throw a freed up Authority at extra infiltration and information gathering in the Far East.


Or instead of extra infiltration, throw it at stirring up major trouble on the border of Cathay and Ind, turn this conflict up even more so.

Either way I don't want to spread out so much if we really want to go after the Estalian woman. Half the point of not attacking this turn was to insure we could get a slew of major targets in the Far East from our efforts next turn.

@Spectrum
Mors and USA should work together to figure out how best to incorporate the new technologies into their militaries as well as continuing their previous synergy and elite unit creation exercises
I'm pretty sure the bolder part would belong in Securimg the Dark Lands.

@Xantalos
Veskit is definitely a better assassin come his operation, but is he good at the organization aspects and intrigue-diplomacy/shady dealings stuff?
 
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Verminking revealed a very critical detail, also: it's not just the scope of Greassus' designs that have changed, it's the scale. His ambition. That's something we can play on, the possibility of being the first true OverTyrant to take the Ogres beyond the Mountains of Mourne, to dominate territory that's resisted every calamity thrown at it for millennia, and such verdant, bountiful territory, a civilization feeding a gargantuan population while remaining so powerful, the mightiest human polity which saw off a concerted invasion by the great Tamurkhan (they don't be need to know the details), he who crushed the Red Fist tribe, with a single outpost!

All that could be his, he has the ability, the Tyrants and tribes answer to him. He need but reach out and SEIZE it, and propel the Ogre Kingdoms to statuses not seen since the Great Migration.

We know what he wants, we know a way he could theoretically get it, we know of his ambition, and we have a guy great at exploiting psychologies.

But the ambition is perhaps key, the single weakness in his growth if properly handled.
 
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Yeah, and I'll throw you an additional tidbit just so you don't accidentally fall into an obvious trap: don't try to blatantly scam Greasus. He's gotten too successful, and scammed too many other people, to not see when someone's trying that on him. Like Verminking said with the ogres you sent into the Dark Lands, all you had to do was promise them a shit-ton of food and ta-da, they were on your side, no matter that they were attacking a place considered dangerous even to them where a bigass ork Waaagh!!! was brewing. If you try something blatantly exploitative like that with Greasus (I haven't looked at Spectrum's newest plan version so I can't say whether or not you're currently doing something like that) he's likely to sniff it out and eat your envoys for dealing with him in bad faith.

Think of dealing with him like dealing with a nation - you can't really bribe an entire country to go to war where there's likely to be ruinous losses with a giant bribe of money/food/whatever, since they have the foresight to see 'attacking that is going to end badly for me and clearly these guys have an ulterior motive for trying to get me to do this. I'm suspicious of them now'. Play off his ambition instead, how he can make a profit off the situation you're asking him to go into - the more significant the better.
 
Yeah, and I'll throw you an additional tidbit just so you don't accidentally fall into an obvious trap: don't try to blatantly scam Greasus. He's gotten too successful, and scammed too many other people, to not see when someone's trying that on him. Like Verminking said with the ogres you sent into the Dark Lands, all you had to do was promise them a shit-ton of food and ta-da, they were on your side, no matter that they were attacking a place considered dangerous even to them where a bigass ork Waaagh!!! was brewing. If you try something blatantly exploitative like that with Greasus (I haven't looked at Spectrum's newest plan version so I can't say whether or not you're currently doing something like that) he's likely to sniff it out and eat your envoys for dealing with him in bad faith.

Think of dealing with him like dealing with a nation - you can't really bribe an entire country to go to war where there's likely to be ruinous losses with a giant bribe of money/food/whatever, since they have the foresight to see 'attacking that is going to end badly for me and clearly these guys have an ulterior motive for trying to get me to do this. I'm suspicious of them now'. Play off his ambition instead, how he can make a profit off the situation you're asking him to go into - the more significant the better.
And yes, his ambition is indeed key. I am satisfied.

Thanks much. I suspect you figured Thanquol and the collective brain-trust of whoever dealt with the issue was smart enough to, with the information, not make that mistake, so you figured it was fine to keep us from making such a dumb mistake?
 
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And yes, his ambition is indeed key.

Thanks much. I suspect you figured Thanquol and the collective brain-trust of whoever dealt with the issue was smart enough to, with the information, not make that mistake, so you figured it was fine to keep us from making such a dumb mistake?
Pretty much yeah. You asked for an overview of Greasus' psyche, you get an overview of Greasus' psyche. Which Thanquol can then utilize his intelligence, rather than his fellowship score of -1 which would normally prevent him from getting that information at all, to figure out what obviously not to do.
 
I'm rather glad we chose that question.

It helps our current goals, Verminking himself was a tiny bit impressed, and it made Greassus really interesting.
 
@Spectrum I like your plan.

I think the plan plays off Greasus' ambition well. If we don't plan on dealing with them directly, or attacking alongside them, that is about as good as we can get it. Make Greasus think it was his own idea and he'll go through with it all the more readily.

I'm curious to see how sending a hero unit with a fortune will turn out, and hope Myrmidia doesn't have a plan prepared to deal with assassins. From what I recall, her being a tactical genius (on the nonsensical levels of Creed), and being charismatic enough to unite the two squabbling nations while attracting heroes to her cause. On the bright side, she isn't that great of a heroic combatant (Malekith and Nagash she is not), and she is still vulnerable to assassination, but I think she knows this.
 
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