Firebird, a Worm AU/Xover?

[Metroidvania]

Yeah. And consider also... Pretty sure none of them were in school in 09... which puts them an easy 5 years on Taylor. On review, Taylor/Noelle romance kind of doesn't work. At the least, Noelle's twenty, if not a few years more than that.

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Yeah...but telepathic bonds tho.

...I can't actually recall a telepathic link in the Marvel Universe that isn't either familial, really, really, really close 'friend' {or often romantic} leading to a synchronization of sorts, or being a subset of the larger entity i.e. the phoenix being split [though that did have some discrepancy in Cyclops hiding his plan to 'steal' the phoenix chunks from the other affected, iirc]. Xavier's 'teaching bond' is maybe, possibly an exception, but I took that more to be his being the strongest human telepath and training the first x-men from scratch, not a full on bond.

That, and I don't quite get the Phoenix choosing to leave a fragment of itself behind, especially as it was 'burned' by outside influence prior to its leaving Jean....

But on the other hand, it brings us back to Glory (friend)shipping, so it's all good.

 

[Seclorum]

But on the other hand, it brings us back to Glory (friend)shipping, so it's all good.

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This.

It's like the ending to Pacific Rim.

You have two characters, in tune and reading each others thoughts... and they have the perfect opportunity to kiss... and dont.

 

[chibipoe]

Which apparently is very soon. And the 'mental lip service' quote's missing a response.

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It is? Damnit. Fixed. Don't remember what I meant to say to that before though.

Good. Worm fics get into bad romances way too often, and you're a better writer than to fall prey to reality-warping shippers.

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I've thought about it some more and heck, if I did go to that, it'd be more likely to be Vicky. That, however, is a whole other can of worms(hah), so probably not that either. Stuff my change, but likely to just be treated as with Acceleration. Some references and humor, but no actual shipping. (Unless it advances the endgame, but a regenerator fighting through as she rips everything apart and killing her in response to her pleading is bad writing. (Why yes, I hated The Last Stand. First Class rocked and DoFP and next Apocalypse retconning the X-Men trilogy out of existence altogether was awesome)

 

[chibipoe]

You have two characters, in tune and reading each others thoughts... and they have the perfect opportunity to kiss... and dont.

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Eh. To be fair, I thought it was perfectly appropriate that they didn't have a romantic angle in PacRim. The connection goes way past that.

 

[chibipoe]

Yeah...but telepathic bonds tho.

...I can't actually recall a telepathic link in the Marvel Universe that isn't either familial, really, really, really close 'friend' {or often romantic} leading to a synchronization of sorts, or being a subset of the larger entity i.e. the phoenix being split [though that did have some discrepancy in Cyclops hiding his plan to 'steal' the phoenix chunks from the other affected, iirc]. Xavier's 'teaching bond' is maybe, possibly an exception, but I took that more to be his being the strongest human telepath and training the first x-men from scratch, not a full on bond.

That, and I don't quite get the Phoenix choosing to leave a fragment of itself behind, especially as it was 'burned' by outside influence prior to its leaving Jean....

But on the other hand, it brings us back to Glory (friend)shipping, so it's all good.

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I'd have to look. Most of the telepathic links I can think of were forced(aside from the really close/romantic ones). The connection here could just be a clumsy move on Taylor's part when she was huffing Phoenix fire and just an really inconvenient and awkward misstep that has some positives.

 

[Formerly]

Wow, just wow. That spotter scene. Taylor, you are a Grade A cunt. I get that that guy's an ass, but damn you saw that, and downplayed it to "daddy issues." By no means is it an acceptable excuse for his behavior, but that was just needlessly cruel and unusual punishment. You viciously and maliciously destroyed that guy with what was likely the root cause of his lifestyle for your own curiosity/amusement. Getting your jollies from picking on the child abuse victim. That is so far away from cool that I don't think there's a word in the English language for it.

 

[Always Late]

Wow, just wow. That spotter scene. Taylor, you are a Grade A cunt. I get that that guy's an ass, but damn you saw that, and downplayed it to "daddy issues." By no means is it an acceptable excuse for his behavior, but that was just needlessly cruel and unusual punishment. You viciously and maliciously destroyed that guy with what was likely the root cause of his lifestyle for your own curiosity/amusement. Getting your jollies from picking on the child abuse victim. That is so far away from cool that I don't think there's a word in the English language for it.

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And what's worse, if I'm reading the scene right, the guy was being beat by his dad for being gay. He joined the E88 to cover it up. That's a pretty serious issue. I've met a couple people at my colleges GSA group who have had to run away from their entire family for that reason. Taylor's different from the Simurgh. She's actually worse.

 

[landcollector]

Getting your jollies from picking on the child abuse victim.

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I saw no jollies from Taylor doing that.

Taylor's different from the Simurgh. She's actually worse.

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I realize this is a very sensitive issue, but let's not automatically jump to calling her worse than an Endbringer, please?

 

[Seclorum]

Wow, just wow. That spotter scene. Taylor, you are a Grade A cunt. I get that that guy's an ass, but damn you saw that, and downplayed it to "daddy issues." By no means is it an acceptable excuse for his behavior, but that was just needlessly cruel and unusual punishment. You viciously and maliciously destroyed that guy with what was likely the root cause of his lifestyle for your own curiosity/amusement. Getting your jollies from picking on the child abuse victim. That is so far away from cool that I don't think there's a word in the English language for it.

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I'm the one championing to Chibi that she didn't really do all that much to him.

She just kept poking him and bringing out the fear in him... he did most of the mind fuck to himself. She just kept poking here and there to push him along more.

The bit with him went through many revisions till we all felt it was "Right" for what it was.

 

[Metroidvania]

The connection here could just be a clumsy move on Taylor's part when she was huffing Phoenix fire and just an really inconvenient and awkward misstep that has some positives.

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Not that I'm demanding it to be romantic by any means, but it seems...like a thread that doesn't really go anywhere in the future, as its consistently being actively downplayed. Barring Noelle becoming Taylor's 2nd-in-command after she forms her independent 'serious business' hero group, it feels like an odd one-off.

I've thought about it some more and heck, if I did go to that, it'd be more likely to be Vicky.

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I'm admittedly a fan of this (as has probably been evident), but not only for the possible romantic connotations itself, but how badly Amy would freak out, which could lead to some much needed phoenix shenanigans, and some much needed therapy for Amy.

I realize this is a very sensitive issue, but let's not automatically jump to calling her worse than an Endbringer, please?

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I mean...she kinda is, at least under the rationale of being human enough (and telepathic enough) to actually understand someone else's pain, and what they went through...and uses that to punish (alongside making sure her friends don't get hurt, to be fair)

The simurgh is an automated combat platform, who does what it does for inhuman logic-based rationale (or Eidolon's subconscious desire, if you take it that way). Taylor doesn't have that excuse.

Granted, Taylor may not have realized how much she actually did, but if her reasoning is 'He's Empire, no fucks given...' that's how telepathy leads to baaaad juju.

 

[earthboy]

I was under the impression that the lookout had murdered his own father (due perhaps to parental abuse) and that's why there was guilt and fear in such large quantities.

Not really sure about the gay angle -- it seemed to be about the guy's name to me. But maybe I missed something.

I feel like it's morally kinda okay to torment criminals about the murders they've committed.

Murder bad.

 

[Always Late]

I realize this is a very sensitive issue, but let's not automatically jump to calling her worse than an Endbringer, please?

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What Metroidvania said. Then throw on top of that the Phoenix entity's scope, and it's not all that hyperbolic.

I'm the one championing to Chibi that she didn't really do all that much to him.

She just kept poking him and bringing out the fear in him... he did most of the mind fuck to himself. She just kept poking here and there to push him along more.

The bit with him went through many revisions till we all felt it was "Right" for what it was.

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'poking' him, if that's really what that can be called, further and further into his darkest fears is still done by Taylor so she can feel good about herself. It's still massively fucked up.

I was under the impression that the lookout had murdered his own father (due perhaps to parental abuse) and that's why there was guilt and fear in such large quantities.

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There's that too.

Not really sure about the gay angle -- it seemed to be about the guy's name to me. But maybe I missed something.

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The mention of 'Ashely, what a girly name' and the dad saying 'Have you been with that boy again?'. The guy's gay, and hiding it.

I feel like it's morally kinda okay to torment criminals about the murders they've committed.

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I'm not even going to bother explaining why that's horrible.

 

[SwiftRosenthal]

I'm not even going to bother explaining why that's horrible.

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The lives of skinhead gangbangers, especially ones who are actively committing crimes, are none of my concern.

Taylor could have repeated her Scanners moment on the guy, and Stormtiger later, and I wouldn't have batted an eye.

 

[chibipoe]

Not that I'm demanding it to be romantic by any means, but it seems...like a thread that doesn't really go anywhere in the future, as its consistently being actively downplayed. Barring Noelle becoming Taylor's 2nd-in-command after she forms her independent 'serious business' hero group, it feels like an odd one-off.

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It'll have some effects soon enough. Like several things, Taylor's trying to (mostly)ignore it, but... that isn't always an option.

I'm admittedly a fan of this (as has probably been evident), but not only for the possible romantic connotations itself, but how badly Amy would freak out, which could lead to some much needed phoenix shenanigans, and some much needed therapy for Amy.

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It remains a thing I toy with. Even if it's just Taylor & Vicky: BFFs, Amy's interpretation leads to freakout galore.

I mean...she kinda is, at least under the rationale of being human enough (and telepathic enough) to actually understand someone else's pain, and what they went through...and uses that to punish.

The simurgh is an automated combat platform, who does what it does for inhuman logic-based rationale (or Eidolon's subconscious desire, if you take it that way). Taylor doesn't have that excuse.

Granted, Taylor may not have realized how much she actually did, but if her reasoning is 'He's Empire, no fucks given...' that's how telepathy leads to baaaad juju.

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Eh. The important thing to take away is she set out to scare him and it got out of control to a point that disturbed her and she used the very real tactic of 'ignore/dismiss/diminish it(the reducing his issues to a two word flippant remark) in her mind so she didn't have to deal with it. Not the best solution, but one that people do, quite often, use.

 

[landcollector]

'poking' him, if that's really what that can be called, further and further into his darkest fears is still massively fucked up.

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You may need to re-read, because she stopped relatively early on.

 

[Seclorum]

I mean...she kinda is, at least under the rationale of being human enough (and telepathic enough) to actually understand someone else's pain, and what they went through...and uses that to punish (alongside making sure her friends don't get hurt, to be fair)

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And she's just beginning to explore what mental shenanigans she can do.

Essentially all she did to "Ashley" was make him feel fear. She fed his fear. His own fear triggered his hallucinations about his abuse.

She has some cognitive dissonance here, she doesn't CARE about him except he was an enemy to be crushed.

She doesn't associate what he was feeling with emotions she might feel. She's not perceiving the level of Terror and anguish the kid was in at that moment.

'poking' him, if that's really what that can be called, further and further into his darkest fears is still massively fucked up.

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Yes it is. Which is why it's a pivotal moment to show happening at all.

She stepped over a line without realizing it. Something that will most likely come back to haunt her as she increasingly confronts her reality.

She doesn't know herself anymore.

 

[chibipoe]

I was under the impression that the lookout had murdered his own father (due perhaps to parental abuse) and that's why there was guilt and fear in such large quantities.

Not really sure about the gay angle -- it seemed to be about the guy's name to me. But maybe I missed something.

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Ashley might have been. He might not have been. Could have just been an abusive parent's fucked up interpretation of his(maybe) kid and his friend(s).

The mention of 'Ashely, what a girly name' and the dad saying 'Have you been with that boy again?'. The guy's gay, and hiding it.

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Equally valid is that Ashley's so far in the closet because of issues that after lashing out at his dad, he buried all of that under a pile of self-hate and loathing built on the lessons beaten into him by his daddy.

 

[Formerly]

I mean...she kinda is, at least under the rationale of being human enough (and telepathic enough) to actually understand someone else's pain, and what they went through...and uses that to punish.

The simurgh is an automated combat platform, who does what it does for inhuman logic-based rationale (or Eidolon's subconscious desire, if you take it that way). Taylor doesn't have that excuse.

Granted, Taylor may not have realized how much she actually did, but if her reasoning is 'He's Empire, no fucks given...' that's how telepathy leads to baaaad juju.

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This^
Endbringers are Monsters. They do not possess morality, ethics, or empathy, and as such cannot be judged by or held to those standards. Put simply, being Monsters precludes them from being Evil.
What Taylor did (pushing him to that point, seeing what it was doing to him, noting that she could have snapped him out of it, and then going "meh, he's an asshole and he's doing it to himself") was wrong on every count. On the scale of Evils, it was minor and petty, but still an act of Evil. The only comparison I can think of is if in Canon when Taylor stung Triumph she went "meh, guy was fighting me and he's doing the allergy to himself."

 

[Always Late]

You may need to re-read, because she stopped relatively early on.

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If you'd read my initial comment, I stated it's difficult to discern where Taylor's power stops and the man's fear begins. It's one thing for an author to claim something, but another in how the text comes across.

Eh. The important thing to take away is she set out to scare him and it got out of control to a point that disturbed her and she used the very real tactic of 'ignore/dismiss/diminish it(the reducing his issues to a two word flippant remark) in her mind so she didn't have to deal with it. Not the best solution, but one that people do, quite often, use.

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It does make it hard for readers to stick around if all this becomes is: Taylor having horrible things happen to her and her subsequently doing horrible things to other people. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Yes it is. Which is why it's a pivotal moment to show happening at all.

She stepped over a line without realizing it. Something that will most likely come back to haunt her as she increasingly confronts her reality.

She doesn't know herself anymore.

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I thought reading the PRT hate train comments was unpleasant then.

Ashley might have been. He might not have been. Could have just been an abusive parent's fucked up interpretation of his(maybe) kid and his friend(s).



Equally valid is that Ashley's so far in the closet because of issues that after lashing out at his dad, he buried all of that under a pile of self-hate and loathing built on the lessons beaten into him by his daddy.

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You already had a sense of vagueness on Taylor's memory-fear inducement. Adding another interpretive section with the abuse into the section really isn't helping what's an incredibly uncomfortable passage. I hope you and Seclorum are right, and Taylor's going to retreat from this mindset right quick.

 

[Formerly]

You already had a sense of vagueness on Taylor's memory-fear inducement. Adding another interpretive section with the abuse into the section really isn't helping what's an incredibly uncomfortable passage. I hope you and Seclorum are right, and Taylor's going to retreat from this mindset right quick.

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Also this^
Violent child abuse is a hotbutton issue for most, but hoo boy; for me, it's a murder button topic. Just reading that section made me all kinds of uncomfortable. I actually decided that my first draft of my post was too intense so I erased it, took a step back, and tried again.

 

[chibipoe]

You already had a sense of vagueness on Taylor's memory-fear inducement. Adding another interpretive section with the abuse into the section really isn't helping what's an incredibly uncomfortable passage. I hope you and Seclorum are right, and Taylor's going to retreat from this mindset right quick.

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It's an uncomfortable section intentionally, yes. I won't deny that. Hell, it was uncomfortable to write. One discarded version did have what people are reading into it, where she was gleefully crushing the guy for no other reason than that she could. I'm not going to explicitly tell everyone what to take away from the scene though. *shrug* Or I'll try not to, at least.

 

[Always Late]

It's an uncomfortable section intentionally, yes. I won't deny that. Hell, it was uncomfortable to write. One discarded version did have what people are reading into it, where she was gleefully crushing the guy for no other reason than that she could. I'm not going to explicitly tell everyone what to take away from the scene though. *shrug* Or I'll try not to, at least.

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...Alright. I'll take your word for it, and that I'm reading slightly too much into it. Just be careful with the bridges you may have set on fire here. The next few chapters may break the audience. Well, the audience that isn't here for the Phoenix rendition of 'Here Be Dragons' at least.

 

[Metroidvania]

It remains a thing I toy with. Even if it's just Taylor & Vicky: BFFs, Amy's interpretation leads to freakout galore.

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I dunno...Amy freakout galore @BFFS, personally, feels less satisfying/more needlessly troll-y if it continues to escalate, especially with the telepathy now active and Amy being rather...visceral, even in her own thoughts, at her last mention of Taylor stealing Vicky away from her 'protection'. JM2C, tho.

Eh. The important thing to take away is she set out to scare him and it got out of control to a point that disturbed her and she used the very real tactic of 'ignore/dismiss/diminish it(the reducing his issues to a two word flippant remark) in her mind so she didn't have to deal with it. Not the best solution, but one that people do, quite often, use.

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Eh....I don't want to pull out Uncle Ben's quote here, but Taylor doesn't have that kind of luxury, as she herself somewhat knows/indicates w/ this:

I had reduced him to a sobbing wreck. Just like the Simurgh did. My lips thinned into a frown. It was different from that. I was different than that.

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..and even with the uncomfortable dismissal thereafter, she's digging into Stormtiger's mind one scene later, because Cricket had 'dared' to hurt her. Not because it could hurt her anymore (as indicated by the power comparison), or hurt her friends/her dad, but with the underlying reason of someone daring to target her. (Partially interpretation there, but I feel it fits in with what's shown of her thought process as an underlying drive)

Incidentally, now the E88 has some potent ammunition if Stormtiger puts 1+1 together and accuses her of trying/succeeding at getting a cape's civilian ID/whereabouts (depending at how apt she is at scrounging memories without leaving a trace)

This is probably kind of the point, but skirting the edge of 'X-man' into 'Punisher' is going to be....well, it's going to get a reaction, lol.

 

[chibipoe]

This is probably kind of the point, but skirting the edge of 'X-man' into 'Punisher' is going to be....well, it's going to get a reaction, lol.

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Oh, well, no, there's no Punisher here. Hitting the Empire hard is her plan, but she hasn't killed anyone. And I do try and keep enough fluidity in my overarching plot that I can readjust things if need be(or if an arc gets derailed.) 4.3 may actually do just that. Or moderate the rest of the arc.

..and even with the uncomfortable dismissal thereafter, she's digging into Stormtiger's mind one scene later, because Cricket had 'dared' to hurt her. Not because it could hurt her anymore (as indicated by the power comparison), or hurt her friends/her dad, but with the underlying reason of someone daring to target her. (Partially interpretation there, but I feel it fits in with what's shown of her thought process as an underlying drive)

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The Stormtiger bit was another that got changed. My first draft of it had a bit of a cliffhanger with her starting to tear into his mind, with the implication that she tore his mind apart. That got changed after some review and suggestions as there wouldn't have been any conversation capability from him when she was done.

 

[Metroidvania]

Oh, well, no, there's no Punisher here. Hitting the Empire hard is her plan, but she hasn't killed anyone.

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Didn't necessarily mean Punisher in the sense of killing people, more the sense that his methods, his justice, and his mission are all justifiable, under the 'they're criminals' aspect.

Which is somewhat harder to empathize with when we see the protag. connect and see the situation as the other person does.

Or, as one of his writers has said, '(He) sees the world in very black and white terms, he solves his problems with utter finality" and that "his response to any problem: when in doubt, hit back hard'

(Although that quote somewhat ignores the 'futility' angle, which has at times been played up more often, treating Castle as a man fighting the Tide with a bucket)

That got changed after some review and suggestions as there wouldn't have been any conversation capability from him when she was done.

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Ah.

That...would not have been good.