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Firebird, a Worm AU/Xover?

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Scarlet4 said:
Think puppies or something then, stop being such a pedant, I'm sure you can understand the gist of what he's saying.



Hell Vicky's probably done worse and I imagine they're aware of it. Thing is neither Victoria or Purity are their legal responsibility to the same degree Taylor is. PRT's hands are a bit tied here. Thanks Coil and Danny!
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Oh I understand what he means. I've just never been susceptible to 'cuteness' as it were.
 
Scarlet4 said:
Hell Vicky's probably done worse and I imagine they're aware of it. Thing is neither Victoria or Purity are their legal responsibility to the same degree Taylor is. PRT's hands are a bit tied here. Thanks Coil and Danny!
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Its a bit odd (IMHO atleast) that theres no law/rule that would allow Piggot to just kick Taylor out of the wards and avoid the whole mess.
 
Always Late said:
You know, just for once, I'd like a story not to involve A. Phoenix Force waking up and going fiery so early into a story, and B. Another 'Taylor goes kill-crazy against worse-than-villains PRT' story. I'm looking for something new here.

The former, I get if the author sticks with it. It's exactly what the Pheonix Force did in the X-Men comics. But again, I'd like something different from what everyone else has done, and the wait for the force to awaken has no bearing on the story, unless you've read the X-men comics. I would like Taylor to know that every time she gets upset, she risks unleashing a genocidal primal force, and fight both the villains and her own tumultuous emotions. It's a new spin of a proven concept, ala Bruce Banner and the Hulk.

As for the latter, If I wanted a fic like that, I'd re-read 'Here Be Dragons'. Besides, I'm a little sick of the flanderization of the PRT. The PRT and Protectorate is tying to make the best of a very bad situation, and have many important but minute details that others above me have outlined. I'm not asking that Piggot get rid of her prejudice, or Armsmaster turn into a social master, but is it too much to ask for a Protectorate that's rational and competent?
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You do realise most of the Worm fic's out there feature exactly that? A Taylor who immediately joins the Wards or becomes an affiliate (essentially a Ward but officially not), and show the PRT/Protectorate as incorruptible and highly competent, even though they aren't in canon. Even more fic's feature a OP Taylor who constantly holds back and angst's more than Twilight about it. What you're asking for as 'something new' is literally what a good 75% of Worm fic's out there are like.

One of the reasons I'm enjoying this fic is that its different to the majority of fic's out there, it features a Taylor with a Backbone who is willing to stand up to a corrupt and incompetent Gov't organisation, because if you've read Worm that's what they are. Some exaggerate it, they're not 'herbadurrrrr' retard incompetent, but they are incompetent.

Fic's that have Taylor go all out against everyone and show how powerful she is are incredibly rare, and most of them are one-shots, so I honestly don't get where you're coming from.

I'd like it to go in the opposite direction as well, I've never seen a Taylor who reaches national/international recognition for her power and makes a splash in a big way that's not positive, A Taylor who goes all out against Villains and Hereos that try to stop her. Lets have a Taylor who has earned much fear, respect, and awe from the world.
 
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Andras said:
Taylor's best defense is Purity. She's done far worse and is left to her own devices by the PRT/Pro.

Points to Purity: "You're mad at me? Her first."
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Purity isn't legally part of the Wards, and thus isn't subject to their code of conduct.

I get that people sympathize with Taylor (I know I do), but she has gone over the line of what is allowable for a Ward. Piggot would be remiss in her duties if she didn't try to reign Taylor in. I don't like it. Piggot doesn't like. Taylor sure as hell doesn't like it. But that's the situation. What Taylor needs right now is a good lawyer. One who can get her out of the Wards.
 
Can anybody remind me about the way the forms Taylor and Danny were given worked? Re-reading, I guess there were two different ones - one for full membership, and one for a trial one. Danny eventually signed the former, IIRC.

If those forms are for application, then the PRT should have a way not to accept them for some reason or another - why would they give out the documents which leave them no room to maneuver? So they should be able to dodge some of the bad PR with Taylor.

Or am I wrong?
 
Larekko12 said:
I said that in the scenario where Taylor's lawyer is taking that tact that the PRT should have trained her so that she did not lose her cool and go all excessive force on Cricket, such a tactic would in light of her current decisions come off as hypocritical cost her friends in the prt, and damage her friendships outside of them. It one thing to not want to join someone. It's another to use that same group as a scapegoat to get off for something that in the logic of her defense would not have been possible if she had complied with that group.
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Ahh. Who suggested such a brain dead tactic. I'm no lawyer but that seems to be something only the most foolish barrister would attempt.
 
Nuke_Equestria said:
Purity isn't legally part of the Wards, and thus isn't subject to their code of conduct.
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Kayden: "Are you calling me old?"

Assault: "No, no, it's because you're an ex-, uh, you know."

Kayden: "Are you getting on my case for being divorced?"

Assault: "I give up. Can you handle this, Puppy?"

Nuke_Equestria said:
I get that people sympathize with Taylor (I know I do), but she has gone over the line of what is allowable for a Ward.
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Taylor: "No, see, it's right here in subclause 32b."

Piggot: "Let me see that."

Taylor: "See? Hitting a motherfucker with another motherfucker is a supported tactical maneuver."

Assault: "Good timing, kid. My proposal was only accepted last week."
 
Something I am confused about.... Why can't Taylor just go in and quit the Wards? That's something that has happened before and then everyone wins.

Except Danny.

And if Taylor needs her legal guardian to do that, just have her legally emancipated and then quit the Wards. Then everyone wins!

Except Danny.
 
OverReactionGuy said:
Something I am confused about.... Why can't Taylor just go in and quit the Wards? That's something that has happened before and then everyone wins.

Except Danny.

And if Taylor needs her legal guardian to do that, just have her legally emancipated and then quit the Wards. Then everyone wins!

Except Danny.
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Not nearly so simple as that.
In Massachusetts there is no formal procedure to grant emancipation under age 18, and most judges will not grant it. In New Hampshire, there is no law at all allowing for minors to pursue emancipation (they are considered emancipated automatically upon reaching age 18). I suppose things could be somewhat different on Earth-Bet, but that seems unlikely.
 
landcollector said:
Not nearly so simple as that.
In Massachusetts there is no formal procedure to grant emancipation under age 18, and most judges will not grant it. In New Hampshire, there is no law at all allowing for minors to pursue emancipation (they are considered emancipated automatically upon reaching age 18). I suppose things could be somewhat different on Earth-Bet, but that seems unlikely.
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Probably a lot different when the kid has a super power.
 
landcollector said:
Not nearly so simple as that.
In Massachusetts there is no formal procedure to grant emancipation under age 18, and most judges will not grant it. In New Hampshire, there is no law at all allowing for minors to pursue emancipation (they are considered emancipated automatically upon reaching age 18). I suppose things could be somewhat different on Earth-Bet, but that seems unlikely.
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It's got to be different in Earth-Bet, when there's such a thing as the Wards, which are literally a Child Paramilitary Group/Police Force (depending on how they legally look at capes) emancipation rules have to be different. What if a Parent forces their child into the Wards with the child not wanting to fight or be a part of it at all, that just wants to be left alone? They're then essentially forcing them to be a child soldier, talk about child endangerment. Different to Taylor's situation because she want to fight, just not for the Wards so its not quite the same, but what if the minor wants to not be involved, as in doesn't want to be a cape at all and wants to live a normal life (so no danger of being recruited or killed by Villains because they never ever use their powers) and the parent is forcing them for the monetary benefits?

Perhaps its the other way around, that a minor wants to be a Ward but their parent doesn't let them because they want to use their powers for themselves or they don't want their child in danger etc so as Wards need parental consent it'd be keeping a minor with an abusive parent or forcing them to sneak out and be an independent, which could result in them being killed or forced to/voluntarily join a gang.

Or even if its nothing to do with the Wards and a minor's Parent was a mass murdering psychopathic cape whose identity was released to the public, they'd be riduculed and no one would take care of them especially if they were 14/15/16 etc so very close to their majority anyway.

In a Parahuman filled world and the associated organisations, especially in the BB area which has a unusually high percentage of capes, there has to be some form of emancipation law. Even if it's only considered for people who are close to their majority.

Some people care take care of themselves at that age, especially if they have a super power to help earn money/ defend themselves.
 
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OverReactionGuy said:
Probably a lot different when the kid has a super power.
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Yeah, most things that are different about Earth Bet are because you have individuals with the power of a state-level actor. There's a bit of philosophising about this in Agent of Cauldron:

"You see, she's talking about the movement of power away from government towards certain individuals, selected effectively at random. Put another way, let's say the Siberian believed that red shirts are evil. If she walks into your home and you're wearing a red shirt, it doesn't matter that it's legal and you bought it in a legitimate economic exchange. All that matters is that the Siberian will eat your liver. The instant the Siberian saw you, you were living under Siberian law. This is not wholly new, of course, it has been true ever since the first ape figured out how to lift a rock, but parahumans have increased the difference exponentially." She looked up from the laptop. "Now, there are people who can flaunt the rules due to power innate within themselves and no one has the power to stop them, not even by assassination in many cases. Therefore, their will becomes law. Their design becomes the world. Others live by their sufferance. Do you understand what I'm saying?"
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That's...remarkably reasonable. I'll have to go read that story properly, then. But yeah. Authority is force. If you can't enforce something, then you might as well not bother with it, since the whole matter is rendered irrelevant the moment someone defies a law and remains untouched because the law simply can't touch him/her.

To make this post on-topic, this is basically the case here. Danny signed the papers, and they were filed, so Taylor is a Ward. So far, the authorities have been smart enough to acknowledge that for all intents and purposes, those papers have less relevance than last year's newspapers. If this mindset changes due to the nazi beating... well, the only thing it will achieve is that the PRT and the Wards will be acknowledged as entirely irrelevant and useless in the Bay.

And as far as the public opinion is concerned, I can't believe anyone will care, except in the 'fuck yeah! Go Sirin!' sense. I mean, imagine that you're living in a city with a serious neo nazi problem. Now, someone among them is arrested, his mates attempt to free them, and in the process, a local guy/gal lays down the smackdown upon them with, say, a hockey stick.

Be honest. Would you care?
 
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Nuke_Equestria said:
Purity isn't legally part of the Wards, and thus isn't subject to their code of conduct.
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She is, however, still subject to the things Taylor is being warned about: excessive force and destruction of property.

Not only that, but A+B are supposed to be heroes but they're standing there chatting it up with the known criminal nazi (unless saying 'oh I swapped teams' actually does erase everything she ever did).

At this point, all Taylor knows is that the PRT have failed to do their job competently and that she has less freedom than the nazi.
 
So, the PRT is obligated to reign in Taylor before she decides to deal with criminals with extreme-er force, but Piggott is probably not too dumb to know how badly it'll backfire.
 
blackshadow111 said:
That's...remarkably reasonable. I'll have to go read that story properly, then. But yeah. Authority is force. If you can't enforce something, then you might as well not bother with it, since the whole matter is rendered irrelevant the moment someone defies a law and remains untouched because the law simply can't touch him/her.

To make this post on-topic, this is basically the case here. Danny signed the papers, and they were filed, so Taylor is a Ward. So far, the authorities have been smart enough to acknowledge that for all intents and purposes, those papers have less relevance than last year's newspapers. If this mindset changes due to the nazi beating... well, the only thing it will achieve is that the PRT and the Wards will be acknowledged as entirely irrelevant and useless in the Bay.

And as far as the public opinion is concerned, I can't believe anyone will care, except in the 'fuck yeah! Go Sirin!' sense. I mean, imagine that you're living in a city with a serious neo nazi problem. Now, someone among them is arrested, his mates attempt to free them, and in the process, a local guy/gal lays down the smackdown upon them withmsay, a hockey stick.

Be honest. Would you care?
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I wouldn't but the thing is

- a lot of people are going to be pretty anti vigilante on principle, this is perfectly reasonable and I'd be here in RL. Bet has different rules here but a lot of people won't have changed their mind.

- a lot of people in BB are probably pretty sympathetic to the E88. Think how popular black shirt groups can get, especially in places going to shit as hard as BB. See the Golden Dawn or to a lesser extent UKIP. There's likely to be a pretty solid pro Nazi presence in BB that would exert considerable media and political pressure that the PRT probably has to be careful dealing with. Medhall probably bankrolls a shock jock and the local conservative paper I'd imagine.

-the "think of the children" crowd.
 
Arimai said:
Ahh. Who suggested such a brain dead tactic. I'm no lawyer but that seems to be something only the most foolish barrister would attempt.
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Incorrect. Let me see if I can explain. Recently, as in within the last six months, there's been a major push in military and civilian law enforcement to rewrite use of force regulations to remove any wording that refers to non-lethal weapons. The new buzzword there is less-lethal weapons, and here's why.



This is an ASP. It's a steel collapsible baton issued to most every police department and all military police. When we get this weapon, we're trained specifically on what points on a human body are safe to strike, those being the large muscle groups in the arms and legs. This is because if I struck you in the neck or head, I could kill you. If it's a poorly judge strike to the temple, there is a significant chance of brain injury resulting in death. This thing is a less-lethal weapon, because it still can kill, it just isn't intended to. Tasers can cause heart attacks; less-lethal weapon. If I put this weapon in the hands of a rookie cop, tell him it is non-lethal, and then he goes out and kills someone with it, who's at fault? Is he, for employing the weapon, or am I, for telling him it's safe to use, i.e. improperly training him? Similar scenario with Taylor, except she's been told exactly fuck-all about what is even okay within the bounds of apprehending a suspect. Any mildly competent criminal lawyer is going to claim she was acting in defense of her own life, and due to the PRT's lacking training she was unaware what level of force was acceptable to apply in the situation. Couple that with the highly emotionally charged nature, and I'd see her getting to plea down to a pretty minor charge, as things go. If she'd killed Cricket, she'd technically be on the hook for murder 2, but that all depends on where the DA wants to take it. Don't forget a District Attorney can and frequently will elect not to press charges.
 
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Sixtyforty said:
Similar scenario with Taylor, except she's been told exactly fuck-all about what is even okay within the bounds of apprehending a suspect. Any mildly competent criminal lawyer is going to claim she was acting in defense of her own life, and due to the PRT's lacking training she was unaware what level of force was acceptable to apply in the situation. Couple that with the highly emotionally charged nature, and I'd see her getting to plea down to a pretty minor charge, as things go. If she'd killed Cricket, she'd technically be on the hook for murder 2, but that all depends on where the DA wants to take it. Don't forget a District Attorney can and frequently will elect not to press charges.
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Yep- it's pretty hard to argue against the actions of an untrained teenage girl fighting in these circumstances, so long as you can demonstrate that she wasn't deliberately trying to kill them- and given she could just use her powers to squish everyone involved (even if you believe in the manton limit, she could put them between two pieces of concrete and squish them that way), it's obvious she wasn't actively intending to kill anyone.

That said, there's more than enough political shenaniganary going on that I could see power plays being made here. It's interfering with the PRT's tard-monkey catch-and-release program, for one thing, so that'd need to be slapped down on several levels.
 
landcollector said:
And what if Purity didn't step in? TK slamming a non-brute rated cape to death (who doesn't have a Kill Order IIRC) in view of a heck of a lot of people is not good optics, imo.
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Yeah, it looks pretty bad, but as they say, it's not what you know, it's what can be proven in court. This is why officers are trained to give a verbal command on every strike, by the way. So people can see and hear you telling someone to get back or get down, instead of just silently beating their ass. I figure a defense would claim she had to slam her into other objects to actually do any damage, and then got carried away in the emotion of the situation. It'd probably still result in a charge, but I've seen cops get off for worse with much less.
 
Sixtyforty said:
Any mildly competent criminal lawyer is going to claim she was acting in defense of her own life, and due to the PRT's lacking training she was unaware what level of force was acceptable to apply in the situation.
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I don't think anyone is arguing that she won't get any possible charges dropped. The above however, is EXACTLY why the previous way of treating Taylor is likely to come to an immediate end.

They will point to the above, and say that Taylor is not properly trained, and does not understand how to 'hero'. Therefore the soft sell option has been removed. She's shown that she NEEDS training, and the training for that is what the Wards program is for. They will now force the training - or be forced to label her a villain and arrest her.
 
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