[X] Your Oath:
-[X] Swear a Stone Oath. Go all out and swear the most meaningful promise a manakete can make. This was the promise that Father and Mother made when they married, the sort of oath that never gets broken.
[X] Sypha's Escort:
-[X] Invite Bernard along. He's Sypha's cousin, so she'd surely want him to be safe too. He also is still injured, so it'd be best to get him out of harm's way as soon as possible. He is a bit of a twit, though…
I definitely think we should take Bernard along, the group could still run into trouble with the Talons and Bernard's the only option that would be slow the group down in such a situation. He's also the person Sypha would most enjoy us bringing along. He'd also be the most interesting thematically, I don't necessarily like him but I enjoy his dynamic with Ryza. He might cause some political issues later, but I think it would be worth it.
I'm not so sure about the oath. I prefer stone but only slightly.
So. Here is a thought. There is one extra bonus to the Stone Oath we might not be considering.
Ryza is planning to Halfshift. Halfshifting to much/to long causes issues and was starting to cause issues while we flew robin out this way.
A Stone Oath won't just show sincerity, it will bind Ryza's Dragon. Not only might it help keep Half Shifting from causing problems (Since we are acting to fulfil the oath.) but If we choose/are forced to fully shift for any reason, Dragon Ryza will STILL act to fulfill the oath no matter what emotion is used. The stone oath actually makes this trip safer.
I'll admit though, I'm torn on who to bring. Empire guy might be super handy at the politicking table and carrying a guy with a dragonbane weapon only makes it more clear how serious we are.
On the other hand, leaving the injured royal behind to slow the other party down while we run off with the guy who has a dragon killing weapon might be...uhhh...a problem given there is a Wyvern rider after the party.
So. Here is a thought. There is one extra bonus to the Stone Oath we might not be considering.
Ryza is planning to Halfshift. Halfshifting to much/to long causes issues and was starting to cause issues while we flew robin out this way.
A Stone Oath won't just show sincerity, it will bind Ryza's Dragon. Not only might it help keep Half Shifting from causing problems (Since we are acting to fulfil the oath.) but If we choose/are forced to fully shift for any reason, Dragon Ryza will STILL act to fulfill the oath no matter what emotion is used. The stone oath actually makes this trip safer.
...that is a very solid point. Time to update to Vote v1.3, I guess...
[X] Your Oath:
-[X] Swear a Stone Oath. Go all out and swear the most meaningful promise a manakete can make. This was the promise that Father and Mother made when they married, the sort of oath that never gets broken.
[X] Sypha's Escort:
-[X] Invite Claire along. Sypha clearly likes her, and she sounds kind of nice. She and Kelton also seemed to have something going, so maybe you two can bond over liking him!
We are still going to reveal our dragonstone to half-shift and carry Sypha and her guard, so the point of the stone's oath is not about secrecy : it's about showing that they can trust us. That we are invested. That we care.
And the point I'm making is that they don't understand why this rock is special. To them, it'll look like a fancy rock. We have no reason of assuming Sir Ector and the others will assume Ryza's dragonstone is more important to her than a mage's tome. I haven't seen anyone argue why they would.
[X] Your Oath:
-[X] Swear a Stone Oath. Go all out and swear the most meaningful promise a manakete can make. This was the promise that Father and Mother made when they married, the sort of oath that never gets broken.
[X] Sypha's Escort:
-[X] Invite Bernard along. He's Sypha's cousin, so she'd surely want him to be safe too. He also is still injured, so it'd be best to get him out of harm's way as soon as possible. He is a bit of a twit, though…
I don't really think it matters to them. The Stone Oath; Per WoG, does actually mention the religious figure. It also helps us with our Dragon, so that's a benefit.
[X] Your Oath:
-[X] Swear a Stone Oath. Go all out and swear the most meaningful promise a manakete can make. This was the promise that Father and Mother made when they married, the sort of oath that never gets broken.
[X] Sypha's Escort:
-[X] Invite Bernard along. He's Sypha's cousin, so she'd surely want him to be safe too. He also is still injured, so it'd be best to get him out of harm's way as soon as possible. He is a bit of a twit, though...
I don't really think it matters to them. The Stone Oath; Per WoG, does actually mention the religious figure. It also helps us with our Dragon, so that's a benefit.
Giving a Stone Oath demonstrates nothing. Everyone here is lacking the social context for it for it to mean anything. As far as they know, an oath to the Mother would be far more binding. But if we don't refine the terms more precisely than what was stated in the update, we're swearing a lifetime of service to Sypha.
The Stone Oath isn't the end of the world, because it more or less aligns with what we want to do anyway. But it's completely beyond me why we'd want to magically bind ourselves just to make these random losers happy for some reason. As long as we don't have to wipe them out, they can hate every minute of it for all I care. Swearing by the Mother achieves that just fine.
I continue to watch in amusement as people vote for Bernie the Whiny. I don't suppose it's likely to be an actual problem, but when he's a pain in the ass for the next month straight, don't say I didn't warn you.
And the point I'm making is that they don't understand why this rock is special. To them, it'll look like a fancy rock. We have no reason of assuming Sir Ector and the others will assume Ryza's dragonstone is more important to her than a mage's tome. I haven't seen anyone argue why they would.
If they can have the social awareness to notice Ryza swearing by the Mother isn't all that serious for her, they can just as easily see how seriously she takes swearing on her stone.
So I was thinking while I was out doing a chore, and I realized that there was a piece of information about Stone Oaths that you might like to know: it will include pulling out your dragonstone as part of the promise. However, since you were going to need to get your stone out anyways to...
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Given the information here, it seems like the stone oath will look a lot more believable than swearing to the Mother since it's almost a mini-ritual. And it lines up with our intentions to return to Sypha to Mantrae once everything is finished anyway. It also lines up with their request of actually invoking some of our divinity.
And the point I'm making is that they don't understand why this rock is special. To them, it'll look like a fancy rock. We have no reason of assuming Sir Ector and the others will assume Ryza's dragonstone is more important to her than a mage's tome. I haven't seen anyone argue why they would.
I think he will see that the rock is special. It's a complete dragonstone, something that Artemis recognized on sight and quickly told Ryza to hide even when it was just the two of them because good men would apparently kill over something so valuable and rare. If people don't mind spoilers, because @SoaringHawk218 gave people the option of not finding this out until Ryza did, check out his post here:
So, there are some spoilers in this, so I'll put it in a spoiler tab in case people don't want to know until Ryza finds out. [/SPOILER]
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Ryza isn't just taking out a fancy rock; she's taking out the equivalent of the most powerful tome in existence, or like, fifty tomes all at once and swearing on them at the same time.
Point is, at the very least Sir Ector is likely to recognize this rock is the real deal. And if he doesn't he will when the ritual starts, Ryza has her wings out, and lightning starts flickering everywhere in a mini-ritual.
Uh, that looks like one of those all-the-more-reason-to-not sort of conclusions to me, re: dragonstone.
If we swear upon our mysterious higher powers? We're a powerful mage, a creature of magic...that much can still fit into peoples' "we don't know everything about the world, of course there can be magical beings; if there are magical beings we don't know, clearly they may have different higher powers" mental framework.
If we make a Stone Oath? I'd give better than even odds Sir Ector impales us in the middle of it. If the lance is anything significant in the dragonslaying department, it could even be without his express desire to do so!
In so far as we have the ability to retain any shreds of mystery, secrecy, or privacy; any way people can convince themselves "that child is not an existential threat to mankind like a dragon is" is something we should be grabbing with both hands instead of throwing away at the first opportunity.
I think one of the biggest things splitting votes right now is whether or not we'll be able to keep secrecy with this. I'm of the opinion that while Sir Ector and company are taking our word for it now, before they let us walk off with Sypha they would want some assurance that we can actually get her home as fast as we say. Letting us wander off into the forest far away enough that we can take off as a dragon without being seen flying through the air is just not something I see happening but I could be wrong. Not to mention I think the half-shift ritual is like an hour long and I don't want to be undefended in a forest for an hour this deep in enemy territory.
So I was thinking while I was out doing a chore, and I realized that there was a piece of information about Stone Oaths that you might like to know: it will include pulling out your dragonstone as part of the promise.
However, since you were going to need to get your stone out anyways to half-shift and fly Sypha away to avoid the wyvern, I didn't think to include it at first. However, since I believe in giving you as much information as Ryza would know, I figured I'd mention it in case it made anyone change their minds.
The implication here seems to be that we would be transforming in front of others. In this case our dragonstone is getting seen since Ryza does the ritual with it in her hands if I recall correctly.
Even if we do somehow manage to convince everyone to take our word for being able to get Sypha out of here and manage to leave without being seen, if Claire, Bernard, or Sir Ector come along then that is at least getting reported to Lady Mantrae. Maybe even to Baron Rickman as well. Even if we choose to bring Robin, I highly doubt Lady Sypha wouldn't tell her own mother how she got home but I'll admit it's possible.
The way I see it, from a meta perspective we can still vote to keep our secret from the Empire; keeping it from Mantrae might not be possible anymore.
Edit: As for Sir Ector giving us the ol' impale, I think he's a level-headed guy at least. He wouldn't do that. He already seems to have some suspicions that we are a bit more than we seem, considering that we keep shouting "I took Artemis home!" and there was a massive hole made by a "beast" in the tower she was being held in. So much so that the best cover story they came up with was "Lancel and Axton got eaten by a monster" and Kelton saw the evidence and believed it. If we haven't been stabbed now, I don't think we will be unless we give them a reason.
So I've seen a few people worrying about the wording of the oath. Two things: first of all, that was just them stating what they wanted, so long as what Ryza promises is in the same ballpark, they won't get too fussy over the exact words.
Second, even if they did insist she say specific words on a Stone Oath, it's not a fey bargain. Intent matters far more than precise language, especially since it's connected to Ryza's dragon and dragons don't like legalize and being tied up in exact wording.
I'm loving the discussion, I just want to make sure you know that I'm not trying to lure you into a trap option: I hate those enough when I'm a player that I don't want to do that to you.
There are legendary weapon equivalents in this world. This lance is not one of them: it's just a re-skinned Dragonpike. Believe me, you will know when the legendary weapons show up >: )
I think he will see that the rock is special. It's a complete dragonstone, something that Artemis recognized on sight and quickly told Ryza to hide even when it was just the two of them because good men would apparently kill over something so valuable and rare. If people don't mind spoilers, because @SoaringHawk218 gave people the option of not finding this out until Ryza did, check out his post here:
So, there are some spoilers in this, so I'll put it in a spoiler tab in case people don't want to know until Ryza finds out. [/SPOILER]
forums.sufficientvelocity.com
Ryza isn't just taking out a fancy rock; she's taking out the equivalent of the most powerful tome in existence, or like, fifty tomes all at once and swearing on them at the same time.
Point is, at the very least Sir Ector is likely to recognize this rock is the real deal. And if he doesn't he will when the ritual starts, Ryza has her wings out, and lightning starts flickering everywhere in a mini-ritual.
If swearing on the Fire Emblem is like swearing on the True Cross, then swearing on the most powerful tome in existence would be like swearing on the most powerful catapult in existence, or on a Faberge egg or something. Yeah, it's an important object, but it's not important in the right way. The details matter; the "I'd swear on the Emblem if I could" comment makes me feel like SoaringHawk is aware of and incorporating that kind of detail into the story.
Again: An oath is a request by a person, to a higher power, to inflict a punishment on them if the oath is broken. The object only matters insofar as it represents the higher power. A bible, reliquary, or holy vestment is an effective object to swear on, not because these things are important, but because of their connection to God, a saint, or Persephone. Swearing on a Faberge egg or a big catapult is meaningless, because they are completely disconnected from any higher power that could enforce the oath.
(You could argue that they represent earthly powers capable of enforcing the oath, except that's not how oaths work!)
Ryza's dragonstone is, indeed, an object of spiritual significance, but I don't think Ector and company would recognize that specific form of significance. An oath sworn on a dragonstone may be as meaningless to them as an oath sworn on a bible would be to classical Greeks (or one sworn on Persephone's vestments to medieval Christians). While we have reason to think humans recognize a dragonstone as valuable, we have no reason to think that a dragonstone would be seen as spiritually significant.
(Yes, SoaringHawk noted that they might realize an oath sworn by the Mother isn't as strong as you could make it, but this does not automatically imply that they would understand the significance of the other option.)
Maybe I'm reading this wrong. Maybe Sir Ector would understand why swearing a Stone Oath was significant. Maybe SoaringHawk isn't being as historically precise as I assumed, and an oath on a Faberge egg would be seen as effective...but barring some comment by our QM otherwise, I'm going to assume that underestimating the significance of the oath is a significant enough possibility to consider. And since I've made forms of this argument several times, I don't think SoaringHawk will say whether I'm right or wrong until he posts an update where we swear a Stone Oath.
If the Stone Oath may not be seen as particularly significant, what other effects does it have? Well, it might make Ryza's Dragon follow the Oath when we want it to...but by the same token, it might make her Dragon follow the Oath when we don't want it to. Without knowing why the Dragon would break the Oath in the first place, this seems like a toss-up at best. Several people have pointed out many other possible disadvantages, from tipping our hand more than we'd like to a small risk of shattering the truce. The only advantage I've seen—aside from "What if the Dragon decides to eat Sypha?"—is that Mantrae's men would trust Ryza more, and I'm not confident that that's significantly the case.
None of the pros or cons of the Stone Oath over the Mother's-name oath seem very large. But it sure seems like the cons outweigh the pros, just a bit.
Also? If they want something bigger than The Mother? "Oh. Sorry. I'm not used to all these social rules you nobles use."
We've established we're not good at these things so it's just maintaining character at this point if someone picks up that we might be slightly under selling things.
[X] Your Oath:
-[X] Swear in the Mother's name. This is a meaningful oath, but you're not the most devout of manakete. They might realize that this isn't quite as ironclad as they probably want.
[X] Sypha's Escort:
-[X] Invite Bernard along. He's Sypha's cousin, so she'd surely want him to be safe too. He also is still injured, so it'd be best to get him out of harm's way as soon as possible. He is a bit of a twit, though…
If we are concerned about the stone oath being unfamiliar, then the weaker oath won't help. If Im recalling correctly humans don't worship The Mother nor does she seem to be mentioned in their doctrine at all. If they ever did include her, it was lost with the Manakete.
The oath to Mother can be recognized as something religious, but not a faith they have context for.
The Stone Oath will include that same mother, but also something recognizable as an artifact of extreme rarity and power AND comes with dramatic wing and magic flaring.
They don't have the best context for what we are swearing by but given they already think we have some aspect of divinity the stronger oath that actually has some dramatic cues is more impactful.
The maybe-divinity swearing by a god they don't recognize is one thing.
The maybe-divinity swearing by that god while holding a near priceless relic while obvious magic happens is a bigger more impactful thing.
They don't need to know WHY its impactful, just that the oath is a big enough deal.
If the stone oath is weak because everyone else lacks context, swearing by the mother alone is WORSE, because they don't have context for that either. They have even LESS context for it, because relics and magic aren't involved.
It's what they asked for. If they won't be happy with directly filling their requests then a flashier oath that requires them to trust that Ryza isn't just selling them snake oil with a light show probably won't help.
It's also worth noting that making a point about having a rare and valuable artifact to an audience that includes at least one career thief isn't a good plan. Ryza literally got pickpocketed by her and didn't even notice built Belle pointed out what she'd done.
This encounter probably won't present any additional opportunities like that, but this isn't the audience to project that information to.
It's what they asked for. If they won't be happy with directly filling their requests then a flashier oath that requires them to trust that Ryza isn't just selling them snake oil with a light show probably won't help.
It's also worth noting that making a point about having a rare and valuable artifact to an audience that includes at least one career thief isn't a good plan. Ryza literally got pickpocketed by her and didn't even notice built Belle pointed out what she'd done.
This encounter probably won't present any additional opportunities like that, but this isn't the audience to project that information to.
I think it's safer nobody knows about the stone, for my two cents. And they're getting everything they want; they're unlikely to throw the deal over a slightly less than optimal oath.
