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Fencer's Plot Bunnies

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The origin of Batman was the 1930s on the back of the Great Depression and a time when trust in government to do anything to help solve those problems was at an all-time low (this would be right as The New Deal was rolling out, before WW2, and before any positive impacts of The New Deal would be apparent). That climate is something that Gotham maintains because otherwise Batman is superfluous (there is a valid argument that all superheroes are superfluous when government functions correctly, but that's a completely different conversation).
 
kaosisreality said:
The origin of Batman was the 1930s on the back of the Great Depression and a time when trust in government to do anything to help solve those problems was at an all-time low (this would be right as The New Deal was rolling out, before WW2, and before any positive impacts of The New Deal would be apparent). That climate is something that Gotham maintains because otherwise Batman is superfluous (there is a valid argument that all superheroes are superfluous when government functions correctly, but that's a completely different conversation).
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I can see a FORM of superheroes, as a kind of superpowered police/swat specifically for superpowered crimes, but then they wouldn't be celeberities. I can see think-tanks for tech and for precog, field techs with psycometry and such. Even more, I see CORPORATE capes; celeberity face for companies. Monsanto isn't that bad, just look at Corn Girl! She works for them, and grows crops in third world countries (on Monsanto farms)!
 
The thing that started me was adowwabble Tay-tay being her usual woobified eldritch horror self as usual.

The thing that made me was her talking about the Bat family breaking her bones and how ThePandaRedd took this joke to the extreme.

The thing that fucking ended me was Jason complaining that he didn't get to celebrate and WHY he couldn't.^^

Great stuff!!!! Amazing. Standing Applause!
 
Watched the dune movie, have opinions about the changes some positive some not. Not getting into that, I've already typed out a few dissections of the relative bits on reddit to get it out of my head. Just swinging by to think out loud how much I appreciate fanfiction as a medium, we're not confined to word limits like most novels or screen times like movies and we can explore characters and settings and culture in as much or as little detail as the story calls for. Yes the ability to pack the key elements into a limited space is one if the few skills writing fanfic won't teach, but people are just as likely to drop 2k word one shots or stories that are only 40k words or make some massive multi hundred thousand word monster that will take weeks to read. And we can do that because we aren't confined. I really genuinely appreciate that right now, as a writer and reader.
 
TheGawkingStar said:
Only missing here now is if the video get leaked to the public, see how the masses of Gotham reacts
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That's…. An interesting thought I hadn't considered. I'd been considering this a one shot but if I expanded on idea like that…. I could work in time skips see how everything develops long term. Huh… I'm not sure if I want to do that or not. Expanding could give the idea more depth but it hit's like a gut punch here because it's so brief. Yeah there's room to build but I'm almost afraid adding anything would dilute it.

Edit: like if I ran with this I could see it getting all kinds of twisted up potentially into anti vigilante rhetoric to a degree that's beyond what I wanted to convey. I could see it going the legislative route where it starts a trend to reinstate the death penalty for people who prove unwilling to change and capable of breaking out. Or I could see it being a flash in the pan. One horrific incident that after a few months and the next alien invasion, gets brushed aside. And mostly forgotten. Or starting a movement of people who where unwillingly to act before and now are slitting throats instead of playing the game. It could be played a lot of ways long term and I'm not sure I want to tackle that thorny mess.
 
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Fencer said:
I mean on a base level I actually agree with you Batman should not be allowed to play judge jury and executioner. That's just an all around terrible idea. But the situation is more nuanced that just that boiler plate summary. The man is stupid rich with political influence and supposed to be this amazing detective but he never does anything to even try and fix the system. He could fund the development of a better prison and asylum all on his own, staff them exclusively with people who pass a bat approved background check, but instead he just keeps playing the same tired losing strategy and everyone else pays the price.
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He's not THAT rich. No really he's not. Bruce, not Batman, would have to fund every election that relates to Gotham with candidates that pass his sniff test forever. He'd have to run New Jersey* like he's some kinda Nucky Thompson political boss on venom. Meaning he'd very quickly have to become the thing he hates. As well as going from harmless himbo kook to dangerous rival to certain groups. Running around in a costume punching criminals in their turkey necks (and throwing cash money at charities), putting bandaids on the problems is actually easier.



*Yes they put Gotham in New Jersey for a good long while, it's how they hand waved how crooked it is. Now it's just wherever, but mystically cursed with suck and stupid. The Joker being the embodiment of nastier parts of the curse. So killing him won't work, another Joker will just materialize sooner rather than later. Yes there were Batman stories that are cannon where the Joker is a mystical force that moves from body to body when killed. And he is killed on the regular.
 
lars573 said:
He's not THAT rich. No really he's not. Bruce, not Batman, would have to fund every election that relates to Gotham with candidates that pass his sniff test forever. He'd have to run New Jersey* like he's some kinda Nucky Thompson political boss on venom. Meaning he'd very quickly have to become the thing he hates. As well as going from harmless himbo kook to dangerous rival to certain groups. Running around in a costume punching criminals in their turkey necks (and throwing cash money at charities), putting bandaids on the problems is actually easier.
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*Shrugs* How hard do you think it would be to use those skills he's refined running charity balls to get as much money as possible and instead turn them to making allies with other rich and powerful. If he pointed those skills and those people and that money at just getting the death penalty passed with caveats that included or focused on the rogues who refuse to change? How hard a sell do you really think that would be? Yeah if he tried to push an agenda of being harsher on organized crime while a number the Gotham elites are getting money from those groups it wouldn't pan out but just the rogues?

Also lets be clear, the man funded the creation and maintenance of a space station. If you want to tell me he doesn't have the money to put someone in office especially if he manages to swing a few other big companies behind him? Doubt. Soooo much doubt.
 
Fencer said:
*Shrugs* How hard do you think it would be to use those skills he's refined running charity balls to get as much money as possible and instead turn them to making allies with other rich and powerful. If he pointed those skills and those people and that money at just getting the death penalty passed with caveats that included or focused on the rogues who refuse to change? How hard a sell do you really think that would be? Yeah if he tried to push an agenda of being harsher on organized crime while a number the Gotham elites are getting money from those groups it wouldn't pan out but just the rogues?
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The rogues are mostly non-compos mentis. I can guarantee most of them have been convicted of jack and shit. So killing them would be murder. Yeah anyone in Arkham has never been convicted of a crime. As being there means they're declared no able to stand trial due to mental disorder. I know that's not realistic, most of them wouldn't meet the criteria IRL. But this isn't IRL, and Arkham isn't a prison. It's a mental health institution. There's an entire Batman story where the Joker is found competent to stand trial for a murder, and DA is totally going for the death penalty. But, what a twist, he didn't actually do it. So Batman is running around to find who framed the Joker for murder.

Fencer said:
Also lets be clear, the man funded the creation and maintenance of a space station. If you want to tell me he doesn't have the money to put someone in office especially if he manages to swing a few other big companies behind him? Doubt. Soooo much doubt.
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That's the thing he wouldn't have to put one person into office. He'd have to put dozens into office, and keep them there. The Mayor, a majority of the city council, the DA, the police commission. Plus any state and federal reps from Gotham. Bruce would also need his fingers in the Governors office. We're talking like 100's of millions for every election cycle forever. Wayne money stacks ain't that fat. Plus he'd be fighting entrenched interests that like the status quo.
 
lars573 said:
The rogues are mostly non-compos mentis. I can guarantee most of them have been convicted of jack and shit. So killing them would be murder. Yeah anyone in Arkham has never been convicted of a crime. As being there means they're declared no able to stand trial due to mental disorder. I know that's not realistic, most of them wouldn't meet the criteria IRL. But this isn't IRL, and Arkham isn't a prison. It's a mental health institution. There's an entire Batman story where the Joker is found competent to stand trial for a murder, and DA is totally going for the death penalty. But, what a twist, he didn't actually do it. So Batman is running around to find who framed the Joker for murder.


That's the thing he wouldn't have to put one person into office. He'd have to put dozens into office, and keep them there. The Mayor, a majority of the city council, the DA, the police commission. Plus any state and federal reps from Gotham. Bruce would also need his fingers in the Governors office. We're talking like 100's of millions for every election cycle forever. Wayne money stacks ain't that fat. Plus he'd be fighting entrenched interests that like the status quo.
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Look I'll admit I don't know a ton about politics and funding but you're still talking as if wayne needs to fund everything himself. You really want me to believe it would be that hard to find rich people in a superhero setting that want the idiots in mask who keep disrupting business to just stay caught or dead? Or politicians and police who have lost friends and family to the crazies and don't need any convincing at all? Stop drinking the DC coolaid. And yeah they aren't mentally well enough to stand trial. How much of a comfort do you think that is for the thousands and thousands of survivors and families of victims. Cuss my money is on none. And at some point people would look at all those dead and injured and maimed and have to say enough. We put down animals that attack humans unprovoked for a reason. Sooner or later the same mentality has to be applied to the rogues. Because no the life of a dozen crazies does not balance with the lives of hundreds or thousands never mind how much their antics cost the city, state and federal government directly or indirectly.
 
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One interesting route to go might be having the Joker's reputation be similar to Jack the Ripper. As far as we know, Jack the Ripper only killed five people. And yet, he had the whole city and a fair part of the surrounding countryside terrified for a long time.

I always liked the Jokers who concentrate on being funny more than the ones that just murder people a lot. It would make sense that the unpredictable clown would have an inflated reputation, end up in the news a lot, and get blamed for mysterious deaths, so it's not like a Joker with a low death count wouldn't still be scary. It's less implausible for that kind of Joker to avoid the electric chair, too.

But in the end, I don't really care about the whole kill/no-kill debate. I don't even care whether it's realistic or not. I just care about whether it is fun to read. And that's a whole different kettle of fish.
 
An interesting note on Batman's rogues in general, Only four of them have confirmed kill counts. Joker, Ivy, Killer Croc, and Bane. The rest have fairly large numbers of theft, property damage, and such that were confirmed. There's a lot of dead bodies in Gotham that nobody's able to point at and say "That was done by (Insert rogue's name here)"
 
Otritzi said:
An interesting note on Batman's rogues in general, Only four of them have confirmed kill counts. Joker, Ivy, Killer Croc, and Bane. The rest have fairly large numbers of theft, property damage, and such that were confirmed. There's a lot of dead bodies in Gotham that nobody's able to point at and say "That was done by (Insert rogue's name here)"
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I mean, there's guys like Zsaz who are literally serial killers, and the Penguin's schtick usually involves organized crime along with the birds and the umbrellas. Two-face has the whole flipping a coin to decide your fate. There's also a long list of hitmen and professional pyromaniacs in Batman's Rogue's Gallery. I'd say that plenty of villains in Gotham have blood on their hands.

But there are a fair number of relatively innocent villains who are only psycho killers in particular comics or series made by writers overly impressed with their own edginess. So… *shrugs*
 
I totally forgot about Glass Jaw Zsaz...But honestly he's never been incarcerated in Arkham (That I know of), he's one of the ones that was shipped straight to a prison.
 
Alt dune timeline stream of thought

The emperor does not send Sardukar tells the Baron that it's on him if he wants Dune back. The Baron's attack is less successful. Paul assumes control of the planet. With official political power and the fremen beliefs both available to him he negotiates an actual agreement with the fremen and helps bring about flowing water and green growing things by following and speeding up Kynes plans for the planet. Prolly still viewed as a holy figure for pulling it off has the love of the populace. word about how lethal the fremen are gets out, probably because both Paul and the fremen still want the Baron's head on a spike and go for it. the emperor attacks because holy fuck that's too much power in Paul's hands…. and then we're right back to canon….. you know I thought I had something there for a minute and then I actually followed the idea to it's conclusion and yep it would still probably go horribly wrong.
 
Fencer said:
you know I thought I had something there for a minute and then I actually followed the idea to it's conclusion and yep it would still probably go horribly wrong.
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Revenge is underrated and feels incredible, but when you're up against what may as well be the universe, you're going to need an extra six-foot hole at the end of it all. Not that I've actually SEEN Dune 2 yet, so no spoilers, please.
 
1gnit3 said:
Revenge is underrated and feels incredible, but when you're up against what may as well be the universe, you're going to need an extra six-foot hole at the end of it all. Not that I've actually SEEN Dune 2 yet, so no spoilers, please.
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Soundtrack and action scenes are amazing, beautiful movie. Timothée Chalamet is fucking stunning in his big moment scenes. They change a lot due to time constraints even with it being a 3 hour movie so brace for that. First viewing it really threw me, had to digest it, rant a little on Reddit to get my thoughts in order, then go back to watch it a second time to enjoy it fully.

Highly recommend.
 
1gnit3 said:
Revenge is underrated and feels incredible, but when you're up against what may as well be the universe, you're going to need an extra six-foot hole at the end of it all. Not that I've actually SEEN Dune 2 yet, so no spoilers, please.
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Fencer said:
Soundtrack and action scenes are amazing, beautiful movie. Timothée Chalamet is fucking stunning in his big moment scenes. They change a lot due to time constraints even with it being a 3 hour movie so brace for that. First viewing it really threw me, had to digest it, rant a little on Reddit to get my thoughts in order, then go back to watch it a second time to enjoy it fully.

Highly recommend.
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Yeah I finally saw part 1 on Hulu and the music is grand and sweeping as the vistas..

I can't wait to see part 2 either on a rainy day or next weekend. But dang 3 hrs is a long run time. Maybe should have broken it up into 4 parts.
 
Fencer said:
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Yeah the thing about Dune's emperor is that the entire reason Duke Leto was given governorship of Arakkis is because it was a ploy by the emperor to remove his power from the very beginning. Leto was too charismatic, too influential and thus he and his family were sent to Arakkis in order to kill him. Paul and his mother getting away wasn't supposed to happen, they were all supposed to die. The emperor would never have let Paul live. So the course is set pretty firmly from the outset. And the Atreides knew it was a trap to begin with, so the maneuvering was happening from the beginning as well. It's all one giant clusterfuck. I love Dune, but it's pretty hard to alter the timeline in FanFics in that setting without fucking up lots and lots of plot threads.
 
Windborne said:
Yeah the thing about Dune's emperor is that the entire reason Duke Leto was given governorship of Arakkis is because it was a ploy by the emperor to remove his power from the very beginning. Leto was too charismatic, too influential and thus he and his family were sent to Arakkis in order to kill him. Paul and his mother getting away wasn't supposed to happen, they were all supposed to die. The emperor would never have let Paul live. So the course is set pretty firmly from the outset. And the Atreides knew it was a trap to begin with, so the maneuvering was happening from the beginning as well. It's all one giant clusterfuck. I love Dune, but it's pretty hard to alter the timeline in FanFics in that setting without fucking up lots and lots of plot threads.
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While this is all true, there is one thing I always think people forget: the Bene Gesserit. This is a group of people who are the Machiavellis, the power behind the thrones. If you want to point to a single event in Dune that would fundamentally change the entire plot of that universe, Jessica chooses to have a daughter (as per the Bene Gesserit instructions) is difficult to beat. Most other events will eventually lead to the fall of House Atreides and the rise of the Mahdi, with the jihad that follows.

But not that one. The Bene Gesserit stear the Emperor clear of even gifting Arrakis to Duke Leto, the Harkonnen continue with spice production, Leto and Jessica's daughter marries Feyd (and eventually kills him to usurp the combined Harkonnen/Atreides Houses), and the daughter becomes the first Bene Gesserit Empress, at which point they rescind the cultural taboo on biological immortality and the Bene Gesserit are effectively in control of Humanity in perpetuity.

However, the themes of Dune are not about centuries of planning coming to fruition, but that plans can be derailed by the most insignificant things, that a savior is not what people need (even though it feels good), that any organization can be corrupted by a single selfish person, that it is good to be wary of gifts (especially when there are strings attached), and that human nature probably won't change in the next 13 thousand years.
 
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