Fate/Sunny Order (FGO)

[all fictions]

IIRC the Counter Forces of the World and Mankind are referred to as synonymous with 'the will of the planet/mankind' respectively, though with the caveat that despite being called such they have no emotional aspect. So 'the will of the Earth' and 'the Counter Force of the Earth' means the same thing; Gaia.

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Can't say I have ever seen that or read it like that.

Spoiler: Examples

Counter Force

The Counter Force here is the safety device formed by the collective unconsciousness.
The prayer to avert the demise of mankind, Alaya.
And the prayer to extend the life of the planet, Gaia.
These are the two aspect of the Counter Force.
Both aspects have the goal of extending the existence of the current World. They will eradicate the factors that threaten to destroy the World at the moment of their occurance.

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Gilgamesh :: Is that how it sounds to you? Unlike me…I think so as well, but it is the truth. I was made as the gods predicted. Do you know the difference between the Counter Force of the planet and the Counter Force of humanity? You don't. That's fine then. It's a side issue, forget about it.

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Enuma Elish: O Humans, Let Us Restrain The Gods Above
Rank: A++
Type: Anti-Purge Noble Phantasm
Range: 0~999
Maximum Targets: 1000 People
Ability of Enkidu's to transform its own body into a Divine Construct.
The Counter Forces known as Alaya and Gaia's powers flow into a keystone made of light. Then giant amounts of energy are transformed into a form that the world can recognize and pierces the opponent in one hit. In response to things that threaten the destruction of the planet or humanity, the power is increased.

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It was enough to delude one into thinking that the Counter Force of the planet( Gaia) was opposing Gilgamesh's power to destroy the World.

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Spoiler: Unrelated?

Though they have definite form, they can also be considered a kind of Counter Force. … If you want to know what a Counter Force is, please refer to Kara no Kyoukai.

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Seems to me more like they are described as an extension of said wills, unless I'm misreading something, especially Enkidu's profile. In fact, there seems to be a hinting that the planet's extensions like the gods and True Ancestors are part of its Counter Force.

So waggles hands

Anyway, what I always found funny is how ubiquitous in the fandom the use of Gaia is, when I don't think I have ever seen anyone use "Gaia" in the Nasuverse outside of info in extra side materials. The only thing I can think of is the narration of FSF above and Chiron, when he hears Fiore's wish, say "I can understand both the weight of abandoning one's craft, and the joy of standing on your own two feet upon Gaia.", which seems to just be because he is Greek, not in some mystical sense. Generally, the works in the Nasuverse use the planet/(the) earth/nature or "the world" (when that doesn't designate mankind). Even Alaya rarely come up outside of that long extended wordplay joke at Ayara's expense.

I dunno if the fandom likes to overuse terms like Gaia/Alaya/Akasha/prana because foreign words sound more legit, because they take less time to type than their regular equivalents, or simply because that's how they've learned it, but it's pretty funny all the same.

 

[catDreaming]

I think the usage of Gaea, Alaya, and Akasha are simply because they are useful, non-ambiguous labels. As for Prana... It's a sub-category of Mana, and it's by far the more prevalent than Odit for most purposes.
Although, I think I read somewhere that Prana vs Mana was originally a translation thing, along with 'People die when they are killed' and the like.

 

[TimeDiver]

I dunno if the fandom likes to overuse terms like Gaia/Alaya/Akasha/prana because foreign words sound more legit, because they take less time to type than their regular equivalents, or simply because that's how they've learned it, but it's pretty funny all the same.

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Wasn't the emphasized term used in the Mirror-Moon F/SN fan translations, or is it another fanon source which I can no longer recall?

I know that the actual term is maryoku (lit. magical energy), and od is brought up as the internal variant vs external (mana?), but 'prana' escapes me nowadays.

 

[all fictions]

Gaea

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The fact that it goes through new spellings is also funny.

because they are useful, non-ambiguous labels

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See, I disagree, because I don't think anyone gets anymore confused if someone says the planet, the Counter Force, and the Root instead.

As for Prana... It's a sub-category of Mana

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It's not, but this is one of the reason I have become less inclined to use prana when it leads to these sort of confusion because of how it sounds like mana.

Although, I think I read somewhere that Prana vs Mana was originally a translation thing, along with 'People die when they are killed' and the like.

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Wasn't the emphasized term used in the Mirror-Moon F/SN fan translations, or is it another fanon source which I can no longer recall?

I know that the actual term is maryoku (lit. magical energy), and od is brought up as the internal variant vs external (mana?), but 'prana' escapes me nowadays.

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Mana and od are canonical, prana was invented by a translator out of personal preference. To make it clearer (though there is a nice schema):

• od = internal mystical life energy of user
• mana = external mystical life energy of the planet in the atmosphere/environment
• magical energy/what people call prana = the result of either of the above energies passed and processed through Magic Circuits

To borrow an analogy from ToAru, od and mana are different types of fuel, like fossil fuel and ethanol, and pass through an heat engine/motor in the form of Magic Circuits to release energy (magical energy/prana).

Prana has spread through much fan translations, like Zero's and Apocrypha's, with newer ones like Case Files and strange fake preferring magical energy, but I don't think Mirror Moon used it actually. I remember magical energy and even "ether". Maybe Saber's Prana Burst, though I would have to check cause I'm pretty sure it's "Mana Burst" nowadays.

There is one, unambiguous use of prana in canon, but it seems to be used as a synonym for od along with a whole bunch of other words:

Rani :: No. Though constructing a dining hall may be too much, I am in favor of a breakfast system. The exploration of the Labyrinth places large physical stress on Hakuno, after all. There is no problem with healing damage as it automatically recovers with rest, but the the replenishment of spiritual calories by consuming them as food gives increased spiritual power to the soul.

Leo :: Increased spiritual power to the soul…? You mean willpower?

Rani :: Yes. Vitality, or survival instinct. Dan t'ian, in Chinese thinking. In India, kundalini.

Rin :: Right, spiritual power, dan ti'an, and kundalini. Survival instinct is more desire to leave behind descendent and…Rani, what are you trying to say!?

Rani :: Did I say something strange? Prana is the foundation of the actions of living beings, and stimulating the chakras is…

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Although Rani might just be talking about sex specifically.

In any case, this is why I personally prefer "magical energy". Simple, accurate, and not prone to confusion.

 

[Neruz]

Mana and od are canonical, prana was invented by a translator out of personal preference. To make it clearer (though there is a nice schema):

• od = internal mystical life energy of user
• mana = external mystical life energy of the planet in the atmosphere/environment
• magical energy/what people call prana = the result of either of the above energies passed and processed through Magic Circuits

To borrow an analogy from ToAru, od and mana are different types of fuel, like fossil fuel and ethanol, and pass through an heat engine/motor in the form of Magic Circuits to release energy (magical energy/prana).

Prana has spread through much fan translations, like Zero's and Apocrypha's, with newer ones like Case Files and strange fake preferring magical energy, but I don't think Mirror Moon used it actually. I remember magical energy and even "ether". Maybe Saber's Prana Burst, though I would have to check cause I'm pretty sure it's "Mana Burst" nowadays.

There is one, unambiguous use of prana in canon, but it seems to be used as a synonym for od along with a whole bunch of other words:

Although Rani might just be talking about sex specifically.

In any case, this is why I personally prefer "magical energy". Simple, accurate, and not prone to confusion.

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Oh is that where Prana came from, I always wondered.
I've also always wondered why the internal 'life force' energy is called 'Od' instead of 'Qi', but unlike Prana, Od actually comes from the original Japanese so I figure it's Nasu being deliberately contrary and using his own made up word instead of Qi just because he can.

 

[Punitor567]

So
Hold on
Prana isn't a term that was ever officially used?
But going by the definitions of Od and Mana, does that mean Mana Burst is actually Od Burst?

 

[TheFinalWraith]

This is tangential, but was there an explanation given as to why the Master of Chaldea seems unable to modify a Berserker's level of madness enhancement? Like the way I remember it, Heracles was originally capable of thought and speech when Illya summoned him, but due to her trust issues and other problems she used a Command Seal to suppress his consciousness, but in F/GO it seems like he's permanently locked in that state along with Lu Bu and Darius (though at times it seems like it's just their words that are suppressed).

 

[Neruz]

So
Hold on
Prana isn't a term that was ever officially used?
But going by the definitions of Od and Mana, does that mean Mana Burst is actually Od Burst?

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Nope. It's actually Magical Power Release, the original Japanese is 魔力放出 or Maryoku Hōshutsu. '魔力, Maryoku' roughly translates to 'Magical Power' (also 'Charm' or 'Spell' and a few other similar words, it's a very vague term that basically means 'magical stuff what does the magic') and '放出, Hōshutsu' translates to 'Release', though I believe it has connotations of a sudden, violent release, hence the 'burst' translation.

Prana is what the translator @all fictions linked decided to use instead of Maryoku, because they didn't want to just leave the term untranslated but also got sick and tired of writing 'Magical Power\Energy', so they used the Sanskrit term 'Prana' instead.

 

[Punitor567]

Nope. It's actually Magical Power Release, the original Japanese is 魔力放出 or Maryoku Hōshutsu. '魔力, Maryoku' roughly translates to 'Magical Power' and '放出, Hōshutsu' translates to 'Release', though I believe it has connotations of a sudden, violent release, hence the 'burst' translation.

Prana is what the translator @all fictions linked decided to use instead of Maryoku, because they didn't want to just leave the term untranslated but also got sick and tired of writing 'Magical Power\Energy', so they used the Sanskrit term 'Prana' instead.

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And it stuck so bad everyone and their mother uses it. All those years reading unnecessarily complicated FSN fanfics and I finally understand

 

[Neruz]

And it stuck so bad everyone and their mother uses it. All those years reading unnecessarily complicated FSN fanfics and I finally understand

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I would assume it is an artifact of ye olden days when fan translations were basically all that existed for certain (read; most) things, when there were only like maybe two or three decent translators working on Fate and so they pretty much had total creative control over interpretations like that. By the time the fandom expanded, the term was already embedded in the foundations and any translators who tried to change it probably got shouted down by angry fans for using 'incorrect' (aka unfamiliar) terminology.

I vaguely recall the same thing happening with other things like Naruto, Bleach and soforth, where certain interpretations of terminology was basically arbitrarily decided on by individual translators early on and then later it turned out that they had effectively pulled it all out of their ass because they didn't like the real translation of the original terminology or thought their own personal interpretation sounded cooler or whatever.
Off the top of my head the only one I remember though was one of the really early translations of Bleach, where the translator decided that the translation of Getsuga Tenshō as 'Moon Fang Heaven-Piercer' sounded dumb and so decided to translate it as 'Moon's Fangs Slice Through Heaven' because they thought that sounded way better. But I'm pretty sure it happened a bunch, and at least some of the time the terminology ended up sticking around for ages like Prana, I'm pretty sure there was even one instance where something like that ended up approved by the author and became retroactive canon.

 

[Punitor567]

I'm pretty sure there was even one instance where something like that ended up approved by the author and became retroactive canon.

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I remember that the official translators of MHA liked the fan translated term Quirk enough that it carried over. The literal translation was "individuality" or some shit. It sounds fine in Japanese ("kosei"?) but it's a bit of a mouthful in English

 

[Gore17]

Oh is that where Prana came from, I always wondered.
I've also always wondered why the internal 'life force' energy is called 'Od' instead of 'Qi', but unlike Prana, Od actually comes from the original Japanese so I figure it's Nasu being deliberately contrary and using his own made up word instead of Qi just because he can.

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Fairly sure it's this actually: Odic force - Wikipedia

I remember that the official translators of MHA liked the fan translated term Quirk enough that it carried over. The literal translation was "individuality" or some shit. It sounds fine in Japanese ("kosei"?) but it's a bit of a mouthful in English

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I mean, it carries pretty much exactly the same meaning, and actually worked just as well, if not better, when the reason for the name was revealed.

 

[Neruz]

I remember that the official translators of MHA liked the fan translated term Quirk enough that it carried over. The literal translation was "individuality" or some shit. It sounds fine in Japanese ("kosei"?) but it's a bit of a mouthful in English

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Ah yes, I believe that is the one I was thinking of.

 

[all fictions]

Same thing with ToAru, where what fan translations called "Espers" actually was "Ability Users" in the original Japanese, and the official manga translation originally used "Psychics" at first before changing it to the preferred fan term.

I've also always wondered why the internal 'life force' energy is called 'Od' instead of 'Qi', but unlike Prana, Od actually comes from the original Japanese so I figure it's Nasu being deliberately contrary and using his own made up word instead of Qi just because he can.

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Nero mentions qi once actually.

But going by the definitions of Od and Mana, does that mean Mana Burst is actually Od Burst?

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As said above, it's actually "Magical Energy Burst", which, after checking, was actually what Mirror Moon used for the VN surprisingly enough:

Magical Energy Burst: A
This transfers magical energy into one's weapon and body, and by releasing the magical energy instantaneously, it increases one's ability. Simply said, it is like magical energy jet propulsion. Saber uses this magical energy for her sword techniques, guarding, and movement. Because of her great magic capacity, she can fight Berserker even though she is a girl of small size. A normal weapon without strong divine protection will not be able to endure her magical energy-fueled attack and will be destroyed with one blow.

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[The17thImmortal]

Oh is that where Prana came from, I always wondered.
I've also always wondered why the internal 'life force' energy is called 'Od' instead of 'Qi', but unlike Prana, Od actually comes from the original Japanese so I figure it's Nasu being deliberately contrary and using his own made up word instead of Qi just because he can.

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"Od" is actually short for "Odic force", a term coined in the mid-1800's for a theoretical vital energy or life force, named after the Norse god Odin – the study of this supposed energy is known as "odology". (Wiki article here.)

EDIT:

 

[Neruz]

Fairly sure it's this actually: Odic force - Wikipedia

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"Od" is actually short for "Odic force", a term coined in the mid-1800's for a theoretical vital energy or life force, named after the Norse god Odin – the study of this supposed energy is known as "odology". (Wiki article here.)

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So it's not Nasu being contrary and using a made up term, it's Nasu being contrary and using an extremely niche term.

Especially since as far as I can see that's basically just 'Qi but electricity instead of breath'; aka 'life force' or 'vital energy' etc. Qi is breath based because the ancient Chinese noticed that living things tended to need to breathe and therefore concluded that 'life force' must be related to breathing, 'Odic force' is electricity based because by the mid 1800s Europeans had discovered that the nervous system of living beings used electricity to do things and therefore concluded that 'life force' must be related to electricity.

I suppose it is possible that because Magecraft is Western-based, Nasu wanted a Western term for Qi and that is why he went with Od, as that is basically what it is.


Surprised I've never encountered the term before though, guess that is today's new thing wot I have learned.

 

[The17thImmortal]

So it's not Nasu being contrary and using a made up term, it's Nasu being contrary and using an extremely niche term.

Especially since as far as I can see that's basically just 'Qi but electricity instead of breath'; aka 'life force' or 'vital energy' etc. Qi is breath based because the ancient Chinese noticed that living things tended to need to breathe and therefore concluded that 'life force' must be related to breathing, 'Odic force' is electricity based because by the mid 1800s Europeans had discovered that the nervous system of living beings used electricity to do things and therefore concluded that 'life force' must be related to electricity.

I suppose it is possible that because Magecraft is Western-based, Nasu wanted a Western term for Qi and that is why he went with Od, as that is basically what it is.


Surprised I've never encountered the term before though, guess that is today's new thing wot I have learned.

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That, and the public perception of Chi/Qi/Ki had no doubt mutated considerably over the years – look at DBZ – to the point where Nasu likely needed to divorce himself from it completely, using a highly-similar concept as a workaround in order to get back to the intended term's original roots.

(Similar (though more vulgar) example for English: how modern usage of terms like "bitch" or "bastard", have very little to do with adultery/infidelity anymore.)

 

[Sir Plusse]

(Similar (though more vulgar) example for English: how modern usage of terms like "bitch" or "bastard", have very little to do with adultery/infidelity anymore.)

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Or canines, for that matter. Though I can at least see how both those examples evolved into catch-all insults; after all, back in the day questioning someone's parentage was a sure way to piss them off when you wanted to do so, and "dog" was apparently used as a common insult too (and they just switched to a more feminine term when they wanted to either insult someone's masculinity while they were at it or specifically address a woman). And for anyone wondering, yes, Gilgamesh's "mongrel" catchphrase is, in fact, basically a way of using both of those insults at the same time.

Incidentally, I'm as close to 100% on the Shiki rerun as I'm ever gonna get; I've cleared all the nodes and missions and bought all the limited items in the event shop, but I'm not gonna try to NP5 Saber Shiki or Fujino (though I at least have both, and I managed to NP2 Saber Shiki while trying for the latter, much to my surprise), for two related reasons: First, I'd rather try to save up to roll for a new AE on the downloads banner. Second, I can't afford to even try rolling any more right now.

 

[GAR for Archer]

You know, I thought using Prana as a translation was odd (see what I did there?) since it literally means 'life force' or 'vital energy', but with that whole zodiac force thing it makes sense.

 

[Neruz]

To be fair, when you've already got Mana as 'ambient magical energy\potential' and Od\Qi\Vital Force\Etc. as 'internal magical energy\potential', what do you call the third form after it has been 'processed\burned\used' by the Magic Circuits and transformed into an 'active force' that actually does the magic? Note that ideally it really should be a Western term, due to the Western dominant roots of Magecraft in the setting.

It's a good question; you can't use Aether\Ether, because that's already in use for one of the Elements. Nothing else of Western origin comes to mind off the top of my head, except Phlogiston, but that is a terrible word and has nothing to do with magic.

 

[Deathwings]

Gonna be honest, "Prana" has a lot more snap to it then "Magical Energy". As far as shorthands go, that one is perfectly serviceable.

 

[GAR for Archer]

true, true. Though the more traditional translation would be breath, or life breath.

 

[all fictions]

Prana Burst does sound better than Magical Energy Burst.

But as I said previously, it confuses people, frequently with mana, especially because of fanfics. The human brain prefers making easy associations, so anyone would think "oh, prana is just the opposite of mana", but nope that's od, so then the term now complicates things instead of simplifying them.

It's not like True Ether vs. (false) Ether, it's a completely self-inflicted problem. The Nasuverse is complicated enough as it is, no need to overcomplicate it further for the sake of exoticism. So just like thaumaturgy/sorcery vs. magecraft/(true) magic, if I have to choose between cool and boring but practical, I will choose the latter if it leads to better understanding.

 

[Swordomatic]

I keep it to Mana Burst. It might not be 100% authentic but it gets the point across and that's what I care about.

I can have Ritsuka pedant about terminology later on anyways.

 

[CuriousQuasit]

Prana Burst does sound better than Magical Energy Burst.

But as I said previously, it confuses people, frequently with mana, especially because of fanfics. The human brain prefers making easy associations, so anyone would think "oh, prana is just the opposite of mana", but nope that's od, so then the term now complicates things instead of simplifying them.

It's not like True Ether vs. (false) Ether, it's a completely self-inflicted problem. The Nasuverse is complicated enough as it is, no need to overcomplicate it further for the sake of exoticism. So just like thaumaturgy/sorcery vs. magecraft/(true) magic, if I have to choose between cool and boring but practical, I will choose the latter if it leads to better understanding.

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One thing worth noting - moreso with the use of the term thaumaturgy than prana, IMO - is that having several different (and preferably distinct, unlike mana/prana) terms for something can add a certain degree of verisimilitude to the world-building.

To me at least, it's kind of in the same way as gods that were effectively the same had different names across different cultures, such as Inanna/Ishtar. Not that that makes it any less confusing, granted, but it can serve a purpose.