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[Exalted, ?] Most High

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@Rihaku

Humanity includes Zelretch. Un-nerfed Zelretch can destroy the world with infinite energy fairly easily. Same with Aoko.
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Zelretch was weakened simply pushing the Moon back. That shows a limit to his power, he most definitely cannot destroy Gaia in that manner, or at least, nothing suggests that. He is still very impressive, but not nearly that strong.
xample, we know that the Knight Arm, Slash Emperor, is capable of killing TYPES including Gaia (by drawing energy from the world).
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Grain is a hell of a drug. If I remember correctly (I'll try to find some citations?) I think that TYPES eventually come back/heal from Slash Emperor however. Might be heavily misremembering things, so perhaps not.The rest I concede on.
 
Menwearpink said:
@Rihaku
Zelretch was weakened simply pushing the Moon back. That shows a limit to his power, he most definitely cannot destroy Gaia in that manner, or at least, nothing suggests that. He is still very impressive, but not nearly that strong.
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I thought he was weakened because Crimson Moon bit him, turning him into a vampire, and this somehow nerfed his Kaleidoscope? Well, there are two main limitations to the Kaleidoscope: there's varying levels of skill, as seen by apprentice Rin, and if you channel too much energy it causes countless micro-tears throughout your body. I suppose the latter effect could be responsible for Zelretch being nerfed, but it seems like that would be pretty easy to just heal with AoG-level thaumaturgy.

jamie96969 said:
How would Odyssial fare in warhammer 40k or fantasy.
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Odyssial's not really a cross-over friendly character, unfortunately. There's not many settings where there would be meaningful conflict; Nasu is actually somewhat more interesting because, if he crosses as a Servant, he's nerfed in terms of raw power and has to rely more on skill - but this is still trivially easy, since he can defeat the world with skill alone or perform one of many basically effortless (for him) schemes to regain his full power.

Though now that I think about it, the Grail does create everything in Gate of Babylon, which is a hell of a lot of energy; imagine if all those thousands or millions of NPs were instead directly converted into power for making Gilgamesh stronger and faster.

However, if it's something like 40k, if Odyssial permits a Wyld / Warp Storm to teleport him there, he'd be at full power so it'd be an instant stomp.

Xsi said:
I have one question. The Scarlet Empress rose to power on the back of a Fair Folk invasion, right? She had Sidereal help in grabbing the reins and used the turmoil caused by the event to consolidate power.

With Subduer, how likely is the invasion even to occur? Is it possible to butterfly away the entire Realm? Or is this something we're just assuming is going to happen because the change is just absolutely ridiculous in scope. I'm assuming that something like the Realm is going to happen regardless, because the stability and Immaculate Order helps keep things in line. It's really weird to think of the "current" time period without the Immaculate philosophy keeping people from talking to the gods about the whole 'anathema' thing. That would be pretty awkward.
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The Balorian Crusade was triggered by the Great Contagion, so yes, it would still occur.
 
One thing i dislike about not preventing the Wracking is that it severely diminishes the possibility of gaining that one Gold Faction Elder as an ally as Ulyssian. We know that Anys Syn was the only Elder to survive the Wracking, its a bit annoying to loose the possibility of interacting with peerless Rosary. He sounds like an interesting character, few old Sidereals manage to preserve their idealism and optimism.
 
Chronic said:
One thing i dislike about not preventing the Wracking is that it severely diminishes the possibility of gaining that one Gold Faction Elder as an ally as Ulyssian. We know that Anys Syn was the only Elder to survive the Wracking, its a bit annoying to loose the possibility of interacting with peerless Rosary. He sounds like an interesting character, few old Sidereals manage to preserve their idealism and optimism.
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He's not even guaranteed to survive. 50/50 chance is not worth spending an extremely limited resource to exploit on the off-chance that it succeeds, and even if we get one elder Gold Faction character, there's three to five Bronze Faction peers of theirs who would also be on the table from this.
 
Chronic said:
One thing i dislike about not preventing the Wracking is that it severely diminishes the possibility of gaining that one Gold Faction Elder as an ally as Ulyssian. We know that Anys Syn was the only Elder to survive the Wracking, its a bit annoying to loose the possibility of interacting with peerless Rosary.
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Well, the Wracking is not the exact same as before. Chejob will probably survive it, though he will be in no condition to help Anys out. I have a really amusing fate in store for him.
 
Trusting Sidereals at all is just weird. The Gold faction is not exactly you know, that much better than the Bronze.

One wants to rule through the Terrestrials, the other wants to rule through the Solars.

I mean obviously Gold is preferable in that they're not leading Wyld Hunts around, but their endgame is still pretty anti-Solar. They're puppets (because that will totally work), rather than demons.
 
Chronic said:
One thing i dislike about not preventing the Wracking is that it severely diminishes the possibility of gaining that one Gold Faction Elder as an ally as Ulyssian. We know that Anys Syn was the only Elder to survive the Wracking, its a bit annoying to loose the possibility of interacting with peerless Rosary. He sounds like an interesting character, few old Sidereals manage to preserve their idealism and optimism.
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Anys Syn was the only Elder to survive the Waracking in a world where this guy may have never existed.
And even under optimal conditions there's only a 50% chance the guy survives anyways and given that he survived the Ursupation he's likely not someone who stuck to the pro-Solar guns throughout the entirety of his life.

Ultimately the Gold faction is not a bunch of guys who managed to preserve their idealism and optimism, but a bunch of guys who came to the conclusion that manipulating the Solars to the Siddie's advantage is probably a better way to deal with the mess Creation is in than trying to try and kill them all.
 
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Rihaku said:
I thought he was weakened because Crimson Moon bit him, turning him into a vampire, and this somehow nerfed his Kaleidoscope? Well, there are two main limitations to the Kaleidoscope: there's varying levels of skill, as seen by apprentice Rin, and if you channel too much energy it causes countless micro-tears throughout your body. I suppose the latter effect could be responsible for Zelretch being nerfed, but it seems like that would be pretty easy to just heal with AoG-level thaumaturgy.



Odyssial's not really a cross-over friendly character, unfortunately. There's not many settings where there would be meaningful conflict; Nasu is actually somewhat more interesting because, if he crosses as a Servant, he's nerfed in terms of raw power and has to rely more on skill - but this is still trivially easy, since he can defeat the world with skill alone or perform one of many basically effortless (for him) schemes to regain his full power.

Though now that I think about it, the Grail does create everything in Gate of Babylon, which is a hell of a lot of energy; imagine if all those thousands or millions of NPs were instead directly converted into power for making Gilgamesh stronger and faster.

However, if it's something like 40k, if Odyssial permits a Wyld / Warp Storm to teleport him there, he'd be at full power so it'd be an instant stomp.



The Balorian Crusade was triggered by the Great Contagion, so yes, it would still occur.
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Npt much that could be done about that really. Vengeful solar ghosts and all.
 
Alectai said:
He's not even guaranteed to survive. 50/50 chance is not worth spending an extremely limited resource to exploit on the off-chance that it succeeds, and even if we get one elder Gold Faction character, there's three to five Bronze Faction peers of theirs who would also be on the table from this.
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I know, but Rosary is just interesting. And likely unusually badass if he is the only Gold Faction Elder to survive the Usurpation. I am really rooting for him from his little personality snip and would like to increase his chances of survival as much as possible.
 
Yeah, he's also a non-Syn CoB, so maybe he'll redeem the Elder Sidereals in our eyes by demonstrating that they're not all incurable dicks.
 
Pipeman said:
We could assassinate lots of Solars because they're largely shitheads until the only Solars that die during the Usurpation and are willing to take the deal are too low Essence to be as big of a threat to Creation?
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Better idea.

Sorcerous working to make Shadowlands harder to pass through than walking across the bordrr at the wrong time of day.

Wouldn't stop it, but sure as hell would cramp it.
 
Pipeman said:
Anys Syn was the only Elder to survive the Waracking in a world where this guy may have never existed.
And even under optimal conditions there's only a 50% chance the guy survives anyways and given that he survived the Ursupation he's definitely not someone who stuck to the pro-Solar guns throughout the entirety of his life.

Ultimately the Gold faction is not a bunch of guys who managed to preserve their idealism and optimism, but a bunch of guys who came to the conclusion that manipulating the Solars to the Siddie's advantage is probably a better way to deal with the mess Creation is in than trying to try and kill them all.
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That's the canon gold Faction, who are from my understanding something like a youth rebellion by new Sidereals that never saw anything but the rule of the bronze faction and basically wanted things to continue as they were, just with them in charge instead of the old men. Having a leader that is going to add his personal touch and can tell them from personal experience that they will never manage to control the Solars as they did the DBs could change the faction and its goals.
 
Pipeman said:
We could assassinate lots of Solars because they're largely shitheads until the only Solars that die during the Usurpation and are willing to take the deal are too low Essence to be as big of a threat to Creation?
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True, but that requires a degree of foresight that's likely beyond Odyssial; if he predicted the Usurpation, wouldn't he take steps to ensure his victory, rather than smoothing things over so his assassins have an easier time of it? Assassinating Solars is kind of a counterproductive action if you're trying to rally the Solar host against literally everybody else.

Really, it's the Sidereals who are to blame for the Deathlords (well, apart from the individual ghosts who were spiteful enough to spit on everything they stood for and enslave themselves to their ancient enemies); they should've been more thorough, employed more spirit-killing Charms to prevent them leaving ghosts behind. Being both actual precognitives and highly motivated to prevent aftershocks from the Solars' defeat, they were well positioned to prevent their creation. We know they built tombs, so this is obviously not a problem they neglected entirely.
 
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veekie said:
Better idea.

Sorcerous working to make Shadowlands harder to pass through than walking across the bordrr at the wrong time of day.

Wouldn't stop it, but sure as hell would cramp it.
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Shadowlands were practically unheard of in the First Age, and the ones that existed were mostly allowed for research purposes.
 
Savonarola said:
Yeah, he's also a non-Syn CoB, so maybe he'll redeem the Elder Sidereals in our eyes by demonstrating that they're not all incurable dicks.
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He may be an awesome guy now, but the snip only mentions what kind of person he is, not what kind of person he'll be after watching Creation go to shit and the majority of his friends die over the millennia.

He'll probably still be badass and stuff, but he may very well lose his optimism.

Chronic said:
That's the canon gold Faction, who are from my understanding something like a youth rebellion by new Sidereals that never saw anything but the rule of the bronze faction and basically wanted things to continue as they were, just with them in charge instead of the old men. Having a leader that is going to add his personal touch and can tell them from personal experience that they will never manage to control the Solars as they did the DBs could change the faction and its goals.
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It may change the faction and its goals to "Use them while they are low Essence then murder them so the Exaltation passes on" or alternatively lead to a much, much smaller faction because "Let's become their bitches!" is a shitty battle cry.
Not to mention that someone who had to live through the horror of First Age Solars, including Greatness 10 Odyssal's death rampage, leading them doesn't sound that likely to make them more inclined to let the Solars off the leash.

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Orm Embar said:
True, but that requires a degree of foresight that's likely beyond Odyssial; if he predicted the Usurpation, wouldn't he take steps to ensure his victory, rather than smoothing things over so his assassins have an easier time of it? Assassinating Solars is kind of a counterproductive action if you're trying to rally the Solar host against literally everybody else.

Really, it's the Sidereals who are to blame for the Deathlords (well, apart from the individual ghosts who were spiteful enough to spit on everything they stood for an enslave themselves to their ancient enemies); they should've been more thorough, employed more spirit-killing Charms. Being both actual precognitives and highly motivated to prevent aftershocks from the Solars' defeat, they were well positioned to prevent their creation.
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Honestly, I'm not even going to pretend preventing (or even weakening) the Deathlords through assassination is not extremely metagamey, but if I had to justify it I'd argue that towards the end of the First Age inter-Solar conflicts and Solar corruption was probably one of the primary threats to Creation, so killing the most spiteful and douchy ones could be something you'd want to spend your time on.
Extremely flimsy, yes, but anything outright preventing the Deathlords is going to be.
 
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Speaking about the Deathlords, do you think Coldness Odyssial would have taken the Neverborns deal? His goal and theirs kind of align, they want the world to end he wants to create a better one in its place. It would have been a severe downgrade in power, but if he thought his measures to ensure continuity in his reincarnation were insufficient...
 
Odyssial as a Deathlord would guarantee that Creation would not have survived to the Time of Tumult. Full stop. He would not have sat on his ass for nearly a thousand years, completely unheard of.
 
Rihaku said:
I thought he was weakened because Crimson Moon bit him, turning him into a vampire, and this somehow nerfed his Kaleidoscope? Well, there are two main limitations to the Kaleidoscope: there's varying levels of skill, as seen by apprentice Rin, and if you channel too much energy it causes countless micro-tears throughout your body. I suppose the latter effect could be responsible for Zelretch being nerfed, but it seems like that would be pretty easy to just heal with AoG-level thaumaturgy.
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I'm not quite sure, but I think Zelretch came after the Age of Gods. Then again he could probably just travel back in time to the past to get it healed if that was possible, if he desired. As for the weakening, as far as I know being bitten and turned into a vampire mainly weakened him because he doesn't drink blood. Either way, given with what little Nasu has described in the fight, I think we can consider the moon pushing to be Zelretch's limit.

[v] TYPE-MOON Fes. Official Pamphlet 10th Anniversary Q & A Booklet:
Q: You must tell us the details of the battle between the Crimson Moon and Zelretch at his prime!
English | Japanese
Q: You must tell us the details of the battle between the Crimson Moon and Zelretch at his prime!!

A: You are asking me to divulge such delicious details from my stash of ideas? Mmmm... I have shown some similar scenes in Mahoyo, they would carry a similar vibe. It would be something like, the Crimson Moon dropping a mirror image of the Moon (HERE IT COMES!) versus Zelretch doing something only he was able to do: a virtually limitless Ether Cannon unleashed through a special magic circle ("Magic Square"). If we had five times the budget of Mahoyo, then we may be able to realize such a scene.
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The Ether Cannon required a special circle for him to do, and was described as a virtually limitless thing. I think this puts a cap to how much raw power can be put out.

Though now that I think about it, the Grail does create everything in Gate of Babylon, which is a hell of a lot of energy; imagine if all those thousands or millions of NPs were instead directly converted into power for making Gilgamesh stronger and faster.
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My headcanon would state that it doesn't quite work like that, but nevertheless it is simply a headcanon.

Servants are mainly their Noble Phantasms, in physical attributes they're matched or even outdone by a lot of things out there. The statement that one gets a Servant for their Noble Phantasms is quite true in a way. Arguably such a Gilgamesh would still be superior to a Noble Phantasmless high-parameter Gil. A Gilgamesh who is worth four servants in his Parameters could still be downed by a number of Noble Phantasms, while the Gilgamesh who is worth four servants due to Gate of Bablyon is a better match up against most hax, and beings like Arcueid who scale to strength.

The flexibility and esoteric abilities of Noble Phantasms is worth more than simply being able to hit and move faster in the end.


...Hm, I've forgotten to vote actually!

[X] The Blade of the Battle-Maiden
[X] Subduer of the Wyld


[X]
 
Chronic said:
Speaking about the Deathlords, do you think Coldness Odyssial would have taken the Neverborns deal? His goal and theirs kind of align, they want the world to end he wants to create a better one in its place. It would have been a severe downgrade in power, but if he thought his measures to ensure continuity in his reincarnation were insufficient...
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It's possible, but this ends the setting. Odyssial sticking around for thousands of years after his E10 height of power in the First Age means The End, whether in a "and they lived happily ever after way" or another.
 
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Alectai said:
Odyssial as a Deathlord would guarantee that Creation would not have survived to the Time of Tumult. Full stop. He would not have sat on his ass for nearly a thousand years, completely unheard of.
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You think? I think he'd have held back until he found a way to recreate Creation better than it was before attempting to destroy it. Given his changed and likely reduced powers that might have taken a while.
 
Chronic said:
You think? I think he'd have held back until he found a way to recreate Creation better than it was before attempting to destroy it. Given his changed and likely reduced powers that might have taken a while.
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But thousands of years?
Even if you argue that his difficulties in accessing Creation itself could not have been easily overcome and slowed down schemes to create a better one, he could just have taken over the Underworld, turned that into his utopia and killed everyone outside of it.
 
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