[Exalted, ?] Most High

meianmaru · May 10, 2015

...Eh. You know what? Long-term power to Moon is still not a bad thing, even if the more immediate power-boost would be nice too. Give it to her now, and maybe an instant power-boost later if Anys hasn't struck yet and its workable. Just switching Pearl to Lathe from my old vote.

Now, I just hope we don't end up wasting too much money...

[X] The Sundial Throne [Solar Circle, Ambition 3]
[X] The Star-Crowned Dragon of Heaven [Solar Circle, Ambition 3]
-[X] Acquire Defining Tie, "The Lathe of Heaven"
-[X] Beg The Lily for help
-[X] Infallible Messenger
-[X] Travel Without Distance

mrttao · May 10, 2015

EnderofWorlds said:
He, by Word of GM, never overestimated himself and knew the full scope and breadth of his power; this has been stated so many times that it can't be considered an argument at this point. The fact that he also prepared for reincarnation also means that he knew full well that he could fail and that it was a very real possibility. So no, it wasn't hubris or pride that made it the only conclusion Odyssial could come to; and it was in fact the best option available to Odyssial at the time, full stop. It's seriously grating for people to keep making the assumption that Odyssial was victim to these sorts of lesser flaws; not that he was flawless, just that these weren't the flaws he had.

1. Setting up for reincarnation (when you can) is just setting up precautions. This does not mean this was all some grand design by him, but that he was not a complete moron and as such willing to engage in basic common sense precautions in case of failure
2. Knowing the exact measure of your power doesn't mean you aren't over estimating yourself because power is RELATIVE. he could know exactly how much power he can dish out to an obscene amount of significant digits, but if he can dish out X and assumes his enemies can only dish out x/10 power and they turn out to have 3x power then he over estimated himself (in the sense of "I am much stronger than my enemies" rather than "I have more strength than I actually do")
3. He might have thought it was the best plan, he was proven wrong the moment he died.

1986ctcel · May 10, 2015

[X] The Sundial Throne [Solar Circle, Ambition 3]
[X] The Star-Crowned Dragon of Heaven [Solar Circle, Ambition 3]
-[X] Acquire Defining Tie, "The Lathe of Heaven"
-[X] Beg The Lily for help
-[X] Infallible Messenger
-[X] Travel Without Distance

mrttao said:
1. Setting up for reincarnation (when you can) is just setting up precautions. This does not mean this was all some grand design by him, but that he was not a complete moron and as such willing to engage in basic common sense precautions in case of failure
2. Knowing the exact measure of your power doesn't mean you aren't over estimating yourself because power is RELATIVE. he could know exactly how much power he can dish out to an obscene amount of significant digits, but if he can dish out X and assumes his enemies can only dish out x/10 power and they turn out to have 3x power then he over estimated himself (in the sense of "I am much stronger than my enemies" rather than "I have more strength than I actually do")
3. He might have thought it was the best plan, he was proven wrong the moment he died.

It WAS the best plan, he just failed to FINISH the plan.

mrttao · May 10, 2015

1986ctcel said:
It WAS the best plan, he just failed to FINISH the plan.

A better plan would not have failed. He took risks for greater rewards and failed to achieve any rewards.
Although I am not even sure of that since QM said that he would not have been willing to createartificial titans for any reason. And those are so obviously useful...

Rihaku · May 10, 2015

Not fighting the Usurpation and winning, and the Lathe of Heaven, are two separate issues. It's not like the Usurpation happened because of the Lathe of Heaven, and Odyssial only had brief forewarning of it. Even so, he was doing okay against the Usurpation before the Incarnae intervened. But saying the Lathe of Heaven didn't work because Odyssial died is like saying, in some counterfactual world: "General relatively is a terrible theory because Einstein got assassinated; a better theory would have been completed before he was assassinated!"

Whether or not he was assassinated has no bearing on the merits of General Relativity as an idea at all.

Anasurimbor · May 10, 2015

Rihaku said:
Unfortunately, she doesn't know it!

Why can't anything ever be easy? It was a perfect plan, too. She didn't even have to worry about getting approval from Heaven, either! What's the worst they could do?

Looks like we'll have to do things the hard way: with Demon Summoning! Well, or just kill all the Beastmen and bring an army to occupy it. That could work too if we want to be boringly conventional. Kind of a bother, though.

winking sequence · May 10, 2015

Rihaku said:
Not fighting the Usurpation and winning, and the Lathe of Heaven, are two separate issues. It's not like the Usurpation happened because of the Lathe of Heaven, and Odyssial only had brief forewarning of it. Even so, he was doing okay against the Usurpation before the Incarnae intervened. But saying the Lathe of Heaven didn't work because Odyssial died is like saying, in some counterfactual world: "General relatively is a terrible theory because Einstein got assassinated; a better theory would have been completed before he was assassinated!"

Whether or not he was assassinated has no bearing on the merits of General Relativity as an idea at all.

People seem to be under the impression that he tried to activate the lathe while usurpation was going on.

mrttao · May 10, 2015

Rihaku said:
Not fighting the Usurpation and winning, and the Lathe of Heaven, are two separate issues.

If you follow the argument carefully, the argument was presented that the lathe is the best plan possible because odyssial made it and therefore it is automatically the best plan possible because all of odyssial's plan are automatically the best possible.
I countered with saying that if he was so perfect he would not have died. He was not infallible, he failed. And if odyssial is not infallible then his plans (such as the lathe) are not necessarily automatically infallible plans as well.

Coaxy · May 10, 2015

Maybe this is me not caring about the whole waifu thing, but should we really be spending our time/xp on buffing Moon first?
Like, cranking out a powerful administrator 2CD/3CD, or at least buffing someone into a powerful administrator, might be more helpful in freeing us up to do other things. Or we could do the Sundial Throne, which would do the same, but also tie us more heavily to Luseng.

mrttao · May 10, 2015

meianmaru said:
The Blessing of the Five Dragons

Effects:
-Breeding -trait for the Dragon-Blooded is permanently raised by one per [Current Breeding x1 +1] seasons they stay in Luseng, up to Breeding 5. Breeding 5, unlike the lower levels of power, takes whole five years of staying in Luseng to reach after first reaching/having Breeding 4.
-Exalting as a Dragon-Blooded in Luseng is always possible if you have any blood of the dragons from your direct family or ancestors, and no matter of your age. Roll once per year for a chance of Exalting if you have Breeding 1 or up [Chance: Breeding +1 or under on a d10], or once every ten yers if you have Breeding 0 [Chance: roll a 1 on a d10]. The chances of it also raise higher for each year after a Calibration you stay in Luseng, up to five stacks, if you have Breeding 1 or higher.
-Storyteller decides what counts as "living/staying" in Luseng, and if you are away often for very long periods (one whole season with no visits is automatically enough), the effects are revoked.

mrttao said:
... interestingly, that could result in 100% of our pop becoming DB in some generations (since its way easier for a DB to seduce a woman than for a mortal, and with no breeding issues every child of a DB becomes a breeding 5 DB, it just takes a couple of promiscuous DB males with the right social charms)

Rihaku said:
That's... not how Breeding works at all. A mortal coupling will produce far lower breeding than a DB coupling of any Breeding level.

Please look at the context of my post, provided above for your convenience.

Rihaku said:
No, that's less practical. Enderofworlds is basically right.

In what way is it less practical? Because I explicitly said it is less efficient, which is why odyssial didn't go for it. However, it makes up for that by being safer in the long run. It will take a lot longer to do (being less efficient) but instead of a bunch of enemies who oppose you, you can recruit a bunch of allies to assist you.
Also, how does the equation shift if we create artificial subservient titans to do it (something you said odyssial would not have done)

cb_urk · May 10, 2015

Acqusition of Sorcery
-[X] Acquire Defining Tie, "The Lathe of Heaven"
Control Spells
-[X] Infallible Messenger
-[X] Shadows of the Ancient Past

Workings
-[X] Don't Beg The Lily for help
I'm undecided on actual working to perform.
The Temporal Blazon is a bit too obvious and also exacerbates our logistical problem in Luseng.
The Sundial Throne is pretty awesome, but unfortunately not only ties us much more closely to one city but to one small area of the city. That might not be so bad with increased information gathering abilities (such as my control spell choices) and Uly's ability to affect Creation on a large scale through prophesy, etc.
The Knight of Jade is also amazing though I guess that's to be expected for a Solar Circle Ambition 3 Working. Getting this and choosing the administrative version would go a long way to fixing the issues that have cropped up in Luseng in the last couple of turns while we weren't focused on improving it. The combat version would go a long way toward getting us ready to take care of the remaining external threats, which would probably help Luseng more in the long run. I'm rather unsure how the City Father, Uncle Pan, would react to either version of The Knight.
A Dragon of the West / The Star-Crowned Dragon of Heaven are both nice ways to boost Moon. Not much to argue against with that.

mrttao · May 10, 2015

cb_urk said:
The Knight of Jade
A Dragon of the West / The Star-Crowned Dragon of Heaven are both nice ways to boost Moon.

You realize that with the 5x time dilation of the throne room we can do both of those things as well in just a few more days?
we are in fact allowed to get ALL the workings

Anasurimbor · May 10, 2015

Coaxmetal said:
Maybe this is me not caring about the whole waifu thing, but should we really be spending our time/xp on buffing Moon first?
Like, cranking out a powerful administrator 2CD/3CD, or at least buffing someone into a powerful administrator, might be more helpful in freeing us up to do other things. Or we could do the Sundial Throne, which would do the same, but also tie us more heavily to Luseng.

It's pretty clear to me that buffing her right now isn't the best choice, unless we want to do something that will grant immediate power. We can always buff her next month, unless Anys attacks. The Sundial Throne does pretty much commit us to staying around for at least a month or two more anyway, and that's currently winning overwhelmingly

mrttao · May 10, 2015

remember when we argued if we should or shouldn't get sorcery?
remember how absolutely certain the sorcery faction was that we will get time dilation first?

friends don't let friends pass on 5x time dilation

Rihaku · May 10, 2015

mrttao said:
If you follow the argument carefully, the argument was presented that the lathe is the best plan possible because odyssial made it and therefore it is automatically the best plan possible because all of odyssial's plan are automatically the best possible.
I countered with saying that if he was so perfect he would not have died. He was not infallible, he failed. And if odyssial is not infallible then his plans (such as the lathe) are not necessarily automatically infallible plans as well.

This looks like a transparently retroactive justification to me. You literally said "he was proven wrong the moment he died," which is the exact sort of nonesense my post was addressing.

mrttao said:
Please look at the context of my post, provided above for your convenience.

In what way is it less practical? Because I explicitly said it is less efficient, which is why odyssial didn't go for it. However, it makes up for that by being safer in the long run. It will take a lot longer to do (being less efficient) but instead of a bunch of enemies who oppose you, you can recruit a bunch of allies to assist you.
Also, how does the equation shift if we create artificial subservient titans to do it (something you said odyssial would not have done)

It is less practical for numerous metaphysical reasons that Uly does not know.

Anasurimbor said:
It's pretty clear to me that buffing her right now isn't the best choice, unless we want to do something that will grant immediate power. We can always buff her next month, unless Anys attacks. The Sundial Throne does pretty much commit us to staying around for at least a month or two more anyway, and that's currently winning overwhelmingly

Probably a lot longer than that, given that Time Dilation effects are not exactly easy to find or justify!

meianmaru · May 10, 2015

Anasurimbor said:
It's pretty clear to me that buffing her right now isn't the best choice, unless we want to do something that will grant immediate power. We can always buff her next month, unless Anys attacks. The Sundial Throne does pretty much commit us to staying around for at least a month or two more anyway, and that's currently winning overwhelmingly

Yeah, its pretty much the best choice if we are to stay and not draw all the attention immediately. I have nothing against the Sundial even if only it wins, as all the Ambition 3 Workings seem to have ruinuos resource-costs. Just voting my own write-in that I like, and want to get sooner or later.

mrttao said:
remember when we argued if we should or shouldn't get sorcery?
remember how absolutely certain the sorcery faction was that we will get time dilation first?

friends don't let friends pass on 5x time dilation

And I want it, but only as the first working. Rihaku said that with time-dilation we might have the time for an another one, so I've and some others have included those in their votes.

Also, a Sorcery omake incoming. I managed to squeeze enough time for it even today, even thought I had some business to take care of.

mrttao · May 10, 2015

Rihaku said:
Aside from maybe Unusual Hide with the Subtlety Mutation, Mutations really aren't worth the XP. They're pretty bad.

We should add "Unusual Hide with the Subtlety Mutation" to our list of sorcerous works

I think the most sensible plan for sorcerous works right now is (in order):
1. The Sundial Throne
2. The Knight of Jade (administration)
3. A Dragon of the West / The Star-Crowned Dragon of Heaven
4. Unusual Hide with the Subtlety Mutation (for uly)
5. The Temporal Blazon

Note that by getting the sundial throne first, we can then get 5 more workings for the cost of 1 (in terms of time)

Orm Embar · May 10, 2015

mrttao said:
Note that by getting the sundial throne first, we can then get 5 more workings for the cost of 1 (in terms of time)

The issue is that we don't have the jade or the time (even taking into account the acceleration) for this. The proposed outline for the Moon empowerment plan relies on gathering ambient essence, a process that the 500 meter Sundial would not notably accelerate.

meianmaru · May 10, 2015

mrttao said:
We should add "Unusual Hide with the Subtlety Mutation" to our list of sorcerous works

I think the most sensible plan for sorcerous works right now is (in order):
1. The Sundial Throne
2. The Knight of Jade (administration)
3. A Dragon of the West / The Star-Crowned Dragon of Heaven
4. Unusual Hide with the Subtlety Mutation (for uly)
5. The Temporal Blazon

Note that by getting the sundial throne first, we can then get 5 more workings for the cost of 1 (in terms of time)

I would personally replace place four maybe with my write-in about the Librarian. That amount of knowledge in Uly's hands would be quite useful. For something as mundane as Unusual Hide, we could outsource it if we ever get an another sorcerer good enough while its still relevant.

mrttao · May 10, 2015

meianmaru said:
And I want it, but only as the first working. Rihaku said that with time-dilation we might have the time for an another one, so I've and some others have included those in their votes.

I wasn't talking to you specifically, you do, but other people are voting against it.

Orm Embar said:
The issue is that we don't have the jade or the time (even taking into account the acceleration) for this. The proposed outline for the Moon empowerment plan relies on gathering ambient essence, a process that the 500 meter Sundial would not notably accelerate.

Very well, revised plan

meianmaru said:
I would personally replace place four maybe with my write-in about the Librarian.

I did not see it. revising plan again

I think the most sensible plan for sorcerous works right now is (in order):
1. The Sundial Throne
2. The Knight of Jade (administration)
3. The Temporal Blazon
4. A Dragon of the West / The Star-Crowned Dragon of Heaven
5. Librarian
6. Unusual Hide with the Subtlety Mutation (for uly)

Step 1 will be done in real time. ~3 weeks
Step 2 will be done at 5x acceleration. ~4.2 days, this will take the load off moon for ruling the city. In addition we could spend a little more time doing so ourselves (slightly slowing other works)
Step 3 will be done in real time (clarified by QM earlier)
Step 4 will be done at 2x time.
Step 5 will be done at either 2x or 5x time
Step 6 will be done at 5x time

Usernames · May 10, 2015

[X] The Sundial Throne [Solar Circle, Ambition 3]
[X] The Star-Crowned Dragon of Heaven [Solar Circle, Ambition 3]
-[X] Acquire Defining Tie, "The Lathe of Heaven"
-[X] Beg The Lily for help
-[X] Infallible Messenger
-[X] Travel Without Distance

mrttao · May 10, 2015

meianmaru said:
He knows everything that has been ever recorded in a physical medium in Creation, no matter what has been made to try to hide the records. Though while his power is not based on the Loom of Fate, it has nearly identical limitations of not reaching the Wyld and other places outside Fate.

that seems a bit overpowered. So far the only suggested working I saw QM comment on is the moon upgrade one (don't remember which of the two it was though)
Incidentally he never commented about the gift of dragons either

Anasurimbor · May 10, 2015

Rihaku said:
Probably a lot longer than that, given that Time Dilation effects are not exactly easy to find or justify!

Oh god. This is the kind of thing people would totally invade Luseng just to acquire, wouldn't they? Especially when combined with its other riches. Someone like a certain nearby Solar Sorceress and her barbarian Solar warlord minion. They just need to hear about it from the right person, say one who would really like to keep us distracted and busy.

Looks like we might get that giant war after all! Thanks, Anys!

meianmaru · May 10, 2015

mrttao said:
that seems a bit overpowered. So far the only suggested working I saw QM comment on is the moon upgrade one (don't remember which of the two it was though)
Incidentally he never commented about the gift of dragons either

*Shrugs shoulders* A very singular ability instead of the somewhat more varied set of tools that the Knights have, even if they are too quite limited to their themes. Still, you might be right, but it can be downgraded by Rihaku if needed.

EnderofWorlds · May 10, 2015

mrttao said:
If you follow the argument carefully, the argument was presented that the lathe is the best plan possible because odyssial made it and therefore it is automatically the best plan possible because all of odyssial's plan are automatically the best possible.
I countered with saying that if he was so perfect he would not have died. He was not infallible, he failed. And if odyssial is not infallible then his plans (such as the lathe) are not necessarily automatically infallible plans as well.

Nobody's saying that it's the best plan possible, people are saying it's the best plan possible for Odyssial to come up with that takes into account all possible factors from his perspective. If Odyssial were a Zenith Solar-Circle Sorcerer who favored social then whatever plan he'd come up with to save Creation would be vastly different, because his strengths and resources would be different too. The Lathe of Heaven is the best method of saving everyone and giving them a better life that Odyssial could come up with, maximizing his strengths and taking into account every factor possible so as to be the most efficient means of doing so. It's not the best answer, but it's the best answer in accordance to all of Odyssial's skill, power, and resources at the time.

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