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[Exalted, ?] Most High

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As I don't feel like arguing right now, here is some speculation on The Lathe of Heaven / Infinite Singularity Husk:

As its noted on not requiring sorcery, I think it might be continuation on the Wyld-Shaping Technique Charm-tree, with multiple Charms preceding it and capping at E11 to TLoH/ISH. Instead of shaping the Wyld, it could shape the Creation itself up from the fundamental level up. It might also require first unshaping the whole world back to the Wyld, which might be a bit controversial for those who live in it. Of course, if it just erases everybody in Creation alongside it, it really doesn't accomplish Odyssial's goals, so it likely has a component that temporarily stores the souls of as many beings as possible while they wait for The Lathe of Heaven to rewrite a new Creation into existence.

Hmm. Odyssial really does make a fine main antagonist in a story. Tragic background, check. Unbending will, check. Limitless hubris, even if tempered by competence, check. Benevolent goals, if with methods that are truly extremist at the very least, check. A plan to remake the world in his own image? Double check.

(Also, I have to admit being guilty of somehow thinking that Infinite Singularity Husk was named Empty Singularity Husk, and only noticing it now when I started writing this post and checked previous posts by Rihaku about it. I have edited my previous posts talking about it with its right name.)
 
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meianmaru said:
(Also, I have to admit being guilty of somehow thinking that Infinite Singularity Husk was named Empty Singularity Husk, and only noticing it now when I started writing this post and checked previous posts by Rihaku about it. I have edited my previous posts talking about it with its right name.)
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Indeed, a capital distinction!
 
Orm Embar said:
You're so sure there will be a next time, are you? Who's to say the Lily will even be around for that; she's a Knight Errant, even if we do successfully convince her (which is not guaranteed, for all that people are acting like it is) she may decide to, you know, wander off. Go fight for justice somewhere else. She's not going to stand around being our personal hall monitor, because she has independent goals of her own and ideology that she believes in strongly. Oh, and the consequences of being seen consorting with the Lily still haven't vanished between now and the last time I elaborated on them, and using the Lily in this capacity will surely reveal that we have been treating with the enemy.
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Then we work on convincing her to stay and help us duh, besides Rihaku has said that together and after getting sorcery and using WtS on her armor we can pretty much hold off 5 legions anyway so if worst comes to worst we can just use brute force and our loyal populace to make a power base and with all the troubles befalling the realm they won't be able to send their full strength against us without exposing themselves to their other enemies like the Bull of the North or the Deathlords.

Orm Embar said:
Ok, and...? The game may contain hubris. So what? That's a statement about the themes we're supposed to be exploring. What it is not, is an argument that we should try to swim against the narrative current and avoid trying to grapple with the consequences of incredible power and hubris, which is what you seem to be arguing for.
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The POINT I was making was that despite being able to "always find a way" doesn't mean he's immune to fuckups and just because he BELIEVED his plan to rewrite his own Limit Break into something more "beneficial" was a super awesome genius plan doesn't mean that he didn't miss something or screw up something else by doing it.
Orm Embar said:
I'd have thought that the clarity of Odyssial's Limit Break would've aided him in his calculations; rather than being shackled by the strictures of human judgment, he can perfectly calculate the utility of any course of action. He did change his Limit Break to benefit him, after all; it was originally Heart of Flint.
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I was basically pointing out that this part is likely not true or not completely true given the Usurpation happened and he's considered to be a "monster" beyond all other Solars and his super speshul Limit Break likely made things harder for him in the long run thanks to killing everyone who got in his way because in his hubris he believed he didn't need to heed their advice or concerns.
If he was truly so great at calculating stuff like you said he probably would have been able to prevent it simply because it would endanger his plans for the "Golden Forever".
After all he thought he could "win" against the Bronze faction et al and activate the Lathe but wound up having to be put down like a mad dog for sake of all Creation when with his forewarning he could have done something like try to enter into negotiations with them to get rid of the troublesome Solars or something.
 
Hmm. Rihaku, is guessing that "Why Nilul decide to spend some actual effort?" -thing still open with the reward? I don't remember if it has been mentioned yet, but could she have decided to become a romantic rival of Moon in the race for Uly's love? And thus planning to come to Luseng to steal him as her bride? Because The Ebon Dragon and bride-obsession. :p
 
meianmaru said:
Hmm. Rihaku, is guessing that "Why Nilul decide to spend some actual effort?" -thing still open with the reward? I don't remember if it has been mentioned yet, but could she have decided to become a romantic rival of Moon in the race for Uly's love? And thus planning to come to Luseng to steal him as her bride? Because The Ebon Dragon and bride-obsession. :p
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If Nilul were seriously interested in Ulyssian, she would just use Moon's Sworn Brotherhood idealism to manufacture a situation where Moon is okay with sharing Uly because of the DB equivalent of the Peach Garden Oath (the Realm being far less puritanical than equivalent human cultures, sworn-brothers and -sisters are often intimate in a five-way relationship web). She wouldn't do something as inefficient as directly competing for his heart, because she herself is a Moon x Uly shipper AND Moon's best friend.

However, getting Nilul seriously interested in Uly (and not just flirtatious) is a fairly difficult task due to his denseness and other factors.

1986ctcel said:
Then we work on convincing her to stay and help us duh, besides Rihaku has said that together and after getting sorcery and using WtS on her armor we can pretty much hold off 5 legions anyway so if worst comes to worst we can just use brute force and our loyal populace to make a power base and with all the troubles befalling the realm they won't be able to send their full strength against us without exposing themselves to their other enemies like the Bull of the North or the Deathlords.
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The Bull can't really attack while the Navy is so strong, and I doubt you guys are going to go after the Navy.
 
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1986ctcel said:
Then we work on convincing her to stay and help us duh, besides Rihaku has said that together and after getting sorcery and using WtS on her armor we can pretty much hold off 5 legions anyway so if worst comes to worst we can just use brute force and our loyal populace to make a power base and with all the troubles befalling the realm they won't be able to send their full strength against us without exposing themselves to their other enemies like the Bull of the North or the Deathlords.
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An effort that you assume will be successful and is worthwhile... why? Why must we sacrifice so many other things just for the Lily? I particularly like how you brush off the horrors and casualties that open war with the Realm entails, the severed economic connections, forcing more burdens onto our beleaguered populace, the fact that we're giving Anys Syn a target to unite the Realm against, and how you assert - baselessly - that they won't be able to bring their full power against us if we give them the slightest excuse, when Syn possesses the authority of a living saint. And no, our citizenry's faith in us is already wavering from our isolation; now you want to tack grappling with their assumptions about the Anathema on top of that, then rely on them to fight a war for us? With the Realm? The fact that you think we can totally handle a war on top of Anys Syn and hell and all the other stuff that's going on is just... ugh. Just, ugh.
1986ctcel said:
The POINT I was making was that despite being able to "always find a way" doesn't mean he's immune to fuckups and just because he BELIEVED his plan to rewrite his own Limit Break into something more "beneficial" was a super awesome genius plan doesn't mean that he didn't miss something or screw up something else by doing it.
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His virtue is metis, cunning. Forethought. Whatever changes he made, he did so with care; forgive me if I trust the assessment of a hyper-intelligent demigod determined to create a perfect world far more than I do yours. Even were his methods misguided, I find the idea of flawed genius striving to create something better to be infinitely superior to inaction, being content with the world that is and accepting his inability to make a better one. Great and terrible deeds are the cornerstone of Exalted, arguably the entire point of playing a quest; it baffles me that so many recoil from what should be grand and intriguing.
1986ctcel said:
After all he thought he could "win" against the Bronze faction et al and activate the Lathe but wound up having to be put down like a mad dog for sake of all Creation when with his forewarning he could have done something like try to enter into negotiations with them to get rid of the troublesome Solars or something.
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Oh, right, how silly of him to not try and ally with the people who were planning to murder him and bring ruin to all his works, to not betray his comrades at the slightest whim of the Sidereals. Because that's totally what a rational person would do, right? I mean, it's not like Anys Syn is unreasonable or anything, she's just a zealot who thinks the destruction of Creation is preferable to Solar rule. Anyway, now you're advocating for the Bronze Faction, is that it? I mean, I was on board with accusing you of ideological sabotage, but have you decided to move on to literal sabotage? When Anys Syn comes calling are you actually going to say that Ulyssian should lie down and die because we're clearly in the wrong? Because fuck that.
 
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Orm Embar said:
Oh, right, how silly of him to not try and ally with the people who were planning to murder him and bring ruin to all his works, to not betray his comrades at the slightest whim of the Sidereals. Because that's totally what a rational person would do, right? I mean, it's not like Anys Syn is unreasonable or anything, she's just a zealot who thinks the destruction of Creation is preferable to Solar rule. Anyway, now you're advocating for the Bronze Faction, is that it? I mean, I was on board with accusing you of ideological sabotage, but have you decided to move on to literal sabotage? When Anys Syn comes calling are you actually going to say that Ulyssian should lie down and die because we're clearly in the wrong? Because fuck that.
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Ehhh, Anys is a huge bitch, but it's not like she's choosing between "destruction of Creation vs Solars", at least not from her perspective. Solars were going to destroy Creation (more or less). Why would it be any different now?
 
Oh, yes, to respond to your initial question, meianmaru, the reward is still open. Several people have posted some guesses that are close enough that I may just give it out, though.
 
Orm Embar said:
Oh, right, how silly of him to not try and ally with the people who were planning to murder him and bring ruin to all his works, to not betray his comrades at the slightest whim of the Sidereals. Because that's totally what a rational person would do, right? I mean, it's not like Anys Syn is unreasonable or anything, she's just a zealot who thinks the destruction of Creation is preferable to Solar rule. Anyway, now you're advocating for the Bronze Faction, is that it? I mean, I was on board with accusing you of ideological sabotage, but have you decided to move on to literal sabotage? When Anys Syn comes calling are you actually going to say that Ulyssian should lie down and die because we're clearly in the wrong? Because fuck that.
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I thought you said he was a Utilitarian with AWESOME calculating skillz who could see things objectively? All he'd need to do is buy time to activate the Lathe, all it would take is killing a few decadent asshats fucking up creation for their own enjoyment which doesn't seem that hard given that he remade his limit break to allow him to EASILY murder people who are "in the way" plus you realize that Anys Syn likely became so crazy BECAUSE of the slaughter of the Usurpation and how Creation was nearly destroyed by Odyssial and the Incarnae were heavily wounded right? And She IS right that there ARE "worse fates than destruction" like being forced to live under the same monsters who carried out Operation Wyldhand because they were bored.
 
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1986ctcel said:
I thought you said he was a Utilitarian with AWESOME calculating skillz who could see how objectively valuable? All he'd need to do is buy time to activate the Lathe, all it would take is killing a few decadent asshats fucking up creation for their own enjoyment which doesn't seem that hard given that he remade his limit break to allow him to EASILY murder people who are "in the way" plus you realize that Anys Syn likely became so crazy BECAUSE of the slaughter of the Usurpation and how Creation was nearly destroyed by Odyssial and the Incarnae were heavily wounded right?
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The problem is that the Bronze Faction wouldn't negotiate with him in the first place. That is literally the entire point of what I was saying; the hypothetical you posit is flatly impossible, because he was their primary target. Even if Anys does hate us because of the Usurpation War and the crippling of the Incarnae... well, so what? Maybe she and her Sidereal cohorts shouldn't have plotted treason in the first place. She and her ilk started the war. If not for them, we could be living in utopia. All the suffering of the Age of Sorrows, prevented. When you measure up all those who have suffered and died in the years since the Usurpation, has Odyssial really done more harm to Creation than the Bronze Faction? Or has her abject cowardice and inability to dream bigger damned all of Creation's denizens to a hell of slow diminishment and suffering?
1986ctcel said:
And She IS right that there ARE "worse fates than destruction" like being forced to live under the same monsters who carried out Operation Wyldhand because they were bored.
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Anys Syn is right. Okay, I'll just... preserve this moment for posterity, shall I? I don't see why you're playing this quest at all if you're rooting for the enemy.
 
Orm Embar said:
Anys Syn is right. Okay, I'll just... preserve this moment for posterity, shall I? I don't see why you're playing this quest at all if you're rooting for the enemy.
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You're taking that out of context and YOU KNOW IT, There ARE worse fates than destruction I never said WE were going to cause one.
 
Orm Embar said:
At this point, you've tied the goalposts to the back of a van and embarked on a cross-country trip. I don't see the point in continuing this conversation.
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:facepalm: you really don't get it do you? I'm saying that her belief in fates worse then death is perfectly valid given how monstrous the 1st age Solars became, we're still going to kick the shit out of her because we're not the kind of person who would eagerly let BILLIONS of innocent people we're supposed to protect get killed by the the Raksha and mutated by the Wyld for a Weapons test simply because we were bored.
 
1986ctcel said:
:facepalm: you really don't get it do you? I'm saying that her belief in fates worse then death is perfectly valid given how monstrous the 1st age Solars became, we're still going to kick the shit out of her because we're not the kind of person who would eagerly let BILLIONS of innocent people we're supposed to protect get killed by the the Raksha and mutated by the Wyld for a Weapons test simply because we were bored.
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No, we would only do it if it was necessary. Syn doesn't draw the line there, she doesn't understand or acknowledge the worth of our sacrifices, for all that she is a card-carrying Hard Woman Making Hard Decisions herself.
 
1986ctcel said:
I thought you said he was a Utilitarian with AWESOME calculating skillz who could see things objectively? All he'd need to do is buy time to activate the Lathe, all it would take is killing a few decadent asshats fucking up creation for their own enjoyment which doesn't seem that hard given that he remade his limit break to allow him to EASILY murder people who are "in the way" plus you realize that Anys Syn likely became so crazy BECAUSE of the slaughter of the Usurpation and how Creation was nearly destroyed by Odyssial and the Incarnae were heavily wounded right? And She IS right that there ARE "worse fates than destruction" like being forced to live under the same monsters who carried out Operation Wyldhand because they were bored.
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You guys have speculated as to the nature of Odyssial's Limit Break, but you probably shouldn't just assume that your speculations are correct. There could have been a massive red herring for all you know.
 
Rihaku said:
You guys have speculated as to the nature of Odyssial's Limit Break, but you probably shouldn't just assume that your speculations are correct. There could have been a massive red herring for all you know.
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considering you keep on talking about our friends dying, something violent.
only way i can see it being a red herring is if we are assuming that the violence comes from us rather than the limit break doing something crazy like summoning a bunch of demons to fight us and then collateral damage happens
 
THE FIEND! Truly, his glee at the player base's continuing rage at one another will only cause him to grow in unholy strength!
 
If you won't it to spare Luseng the Uly experience, do it to spare Moon.
 
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mrttao said:
I wonder if we are close enough to moon for her to reincarnate now.
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I... dunno if that's automated? It sounds like Ody had to put some time in to get his reincarnation working even once.
mrttao said:
...oh, if we kill her in a limit break zao is gonna be PISSED
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Actually a good point. Zao would've literally killed us for taking Moon to the tourney. If we hurt her, we'll lose our alliance, and he'll lose his shit. I'll, uh, probably be right there alongside him.
 
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