Rihaku
The Internet
Clarity is super inefficient, it's strawman "hard intelligence."
[Exalted, ?] Most High
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
-
- Tags
- exalted (white wolf)
Clarity is super inefficient, it's strawman "hard intelligence."
Please, with Clarity you can't even understand emotions; EEoSF is what Clarity wanted to be when it was growing up.
Rihaku
The Internet
Note that you can easily gain Limit from acting against Intimacies (Major and Defining) without ever proccing your Limit Trigger. Also, that your Limit can "hang" at 10 indefinitely until you have an appropriate time to Limit Break (appropriate being adjudicated by the GM according to certain guidelines).
meianmaru
The Devourer of Fiction
Eh, understandable. I would have hard time doing that too in your position, as you've spent your effort for around, what, 5000 words for both winning the match and convincing The Lily? But it does not seem likely that Slay Her will win at this point, because while the arguments are even according to Rihaku, like you said the votes are heavily in your favor and you also threw in that omake too. I don't see how our side can win, unless there is suddenly considerable amount of people who decide to switch sides.
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Given that we're likely to develop a Major Intimacy to the Lily down the road, should she live, I'd really not have to deal with the hassle of opposing her saddling us with Limit.
Rihaku
The Internet
It depends on the context of your Intimacy.
Naturally, though something like friendship... hm. Surprisingly easy to oppose. It would impair any ability to resist her if her ideals compelled her to take military action against us. Of course, she is conveniently free of those fetters; bloody Abyssals, they have it so much easier... Or is she, I wonder? What Limit-like mechanic might the Gardener or the Neverborn have imposed upon their Chosen? People are oh-so-sure that she won't ever do anything to betray the faith we would be placing in her or harm the people of Luseng, but can we really be certain?
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I really have no problem with accepting the Lily's refugees. As for the Lily herself, could a normal disguise work? While it would be useless if she flares her anima, if we help her her disguise should be sufficiently good that no one would recognize her unless they are looking for her.
A possible argument for convincing Lily is that even if we do not enter the mountain, eventually someone will, and they will encounter whatever lurks there, so it would be better to try and solve the root of the problem. Even discounting that, whatever lurks there might eventually come out and wreck havoc. And while it might be too risky for any one Exalt to do so, its a different story if several are working together. Isolating the mountain is merely pushing forward the problem. Speaking of the mountain, did we contact the Infernals about a possible partnership?
A possible argument for convincing Lily is that even if we do not enter the mountain, eventually someone will, and they will encounter whatever lurks there, so it would be better to try and solve the root of the problem. Even discounting that, whatever lurks there might eventually come out and wreck havoc. And while it might be too risky for any one Exalt to do so, its a different story if several are working together. Isolating the mountain is merely pushing forward the problem. Speaking of the mountain, did we contact the Infernals about a possible partnership?
I doubt it, honestly. Appearance 7 is very distinctive, and if we were to make any kind of use of her at all, it would quickly become evident that she's superhuman. Process of elimination would be sufficient to deduce her identity; nobody else in the vicinity possesses her skillset. Plus, she's just terrible at subterfuge. Manipulation 1, and probably no dots in Stealth or Larceny either. If we want to ally with her, we have to either marginalize her (in which case why do it at all, when killing her has so many concrete benefits that don't rely on the whims of someone adhering to an ideological structure opposed to ours?) or bite the bullet, and that is one bullet I am really not eager to bite.
I don't think so. We didn't return to the Academy, which was the option that had the most synergy with contacting them. Anyway, regarding the mountain, what's to say we just... leave it for now? Whatever's inside kills interlopers but doesn't do anything else; it's been stable since time immemorial. I understand Exalts are compulsive meddlers, but really, must we poke the balrog? Besides, we have word of Rihaku that even together with the Lily, our chances are not that good.
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[X] [Limit Break] Slay Her - +175,000 XP
[X] Spend Moderate Amounts of Willpower to Only Accept a Minor Intimacy of [Friendship towards The Lily]
[X] Spend Moderate Amounts of Willpower to Only Accept a Minor Intimacy of [Friendship towards The Lily]
meianmaru
The Devourer of Fiction
Just so if you didn't know, Limit Break fills up all Willpower after it has happened.
meianmaru
The Devourer of Fiction
Thought that might be the case, especially as Cerillian went for Major Intimacy and Slay Her. Just wanted to make sure.
- Location
- Fabulously Rainbow Ireland
Vote tally:
##### 3.19
[X][Limit Break] Slay Her - +175,000 XP - Though you have come to an understanding of a sort, it is by no means an accord, and she is far too dangerous an opponent to let live. Exploit now your position as the one still conscious and finish this deadliest of foes. Aside from her armor, you will gain her filigree rapier and iron gauntlet as well - a powerful twinned pair of Artifacts that can be used or bestowed upon a powerful follower. It is perhaps not the perfect moment to kill her, but only a fool allows the perfect to be the enemy of the sufficient. Discharges your Limit Break.
[X] Spend Substantial Amounts of Willpower to Prevent Intimacy Creation
No. of votes: 1
Da Boyz
[X][Limit Break] Slay Her - +175,000 XP
[X] Spend Substantial Amounts of Willpower
No. of votes: 3
Orm Embar
Vitaris
CrawlingChaos74
[X][Limit Break] Slay Her - +175,000 XP
[X] Spend Substantial Amounts of Willpower to Prevent Intimacy Creation
No. of votes: 6
Dark Lord Bob
Satar
Savonarola
Algalon
meianmaru
vel10
[X][Limit Break] Slay Her -+175,000 XP - Though you have come to an understanding of a sort, it is by no means an accord, and she is far too dangerous an opponent to let live. Exploit now your position as the one still conscious and finish this deadliest of foes. Aside from her armor, you will gain her filigree rapier and iron gauntlet as well - a powerful twinned pair of Artifacts that can be used or bestowed upon a powerful follower. It is perhaps not the perfect moment to kill her, but only a fool allows the perfect to be the enemy of the sufficient. Discharges your Limit Break.
[X] Accept a Major Intimacy of[Friendship towards The Lily]
No. of votes: 1
AZATHOTHoth
[X] Continued Dialogue - You are beginning to wonder if this Gardener had much the same goals you did, and was experimenting to discern the empirically best methodology. If the Seeds was not dissimilar to you in character, that is too great a coincidence to be simply dismissed, though you will not rule it out at this juncture, either. Nonetheless, the Lily's position - that the wisest of men are too often those whose sight is most clouded by hubris, and thus the true necessity of hard decisions is nearly impossible to discern, making genuine intention-based ethics the best practical code - is not entirely unreasonable. It is perhaps not for you, but she is someone you could work with, on the matters of the Emerald Mountain and her small city of refugees. Her uncalculating benevolence can place a check on Odyssial's more extreme tendencies, and she is likely the only person with a hope of stopping you in Limit Break.
[X] Spend Moderate Amounts of Willpower to Only Accept a Minor Intimacy of [Friendship towards The Lily]
No. of votes: 1
TheOtherSandman
[X] Continued Dialogue
[X] Spend Moderate Amounts of Willpower to Only Accept a Minor Intimacy of [Friendship towards The Lily]
No. of votes: 5
Cavalier
SirLagginton
Jorlem
afterthought53
Ridiculously Average Guy
[X] Continued Dialogue
[X] Spend Moderate Amounts of Willpower to Only Accept a Minor Intimacy of [Friendship towards The Lily]
No. of votes: 19
Alectai
LordOfMurder
BSRK Aditya
Mishco
dragon
Dream Logic
Jouaint
gigantisrex
inawarminister
mrttao
Kurowari
veekie
Random Asian Person
Elero
aja318
useofstrike32
Aloysius
Archanist
wingstrike96
[x] Continued Dialogue
[x] Spend Moderate amounts of Willpower
No. of votes: 4
Emerald Oracle
Serous
Katreus
CharlBaal
[X] Continued Dialogue
[X] Spend Substantial Amounts of Willpower
No. of votes: 1
Diller
[X][Limit Break] Slay Her
No. of votes: 2
Reckless_Sun
Tasoli
[X] Continued Dialogue - You are beginning to wonder if this Gardener had much the same goals you did, and was experimenting to discern the empirically best methodology. If the Seeds was not dissimilar to you in character, that is too great a coincidence to be simply dismissed, though you will not rule it out at this juncture, either. Nonetheless, the Lily's position - that the wisest of men are too often those whose sight is most clouded by hubris, and thus the true necessity of hard decisions is nearly impossible to discern, making genuine intention-based ethics the best practical code - is not entirely unreasonable. It is perhaps not for you, but she is someone you could work with, on the matters of the Emerald Mountain and her small city of refugees. Her uncalculating benevolence can place a check on Odyssial's more extreme tendencies, and she is likely the only person with a hope of stopping you in Limit Break.
[X] Spend Moderate Amounts of Willpower to Only Accept a Minor Intimacy of [Friendship towards The Lily]
No. of votes: 1
Usernames
[X] Continued Dialogue
[X] Spend Substantial Amounts of Willpower to Prevent Intimacy Creation
No. of votes: 1
Thomasfoolery
[X][Limit Break] Slay Her - +175,000 XP
[X] Accept a Major Intimacy of[Friendship towards The Lily]
No. of votes: 1
Cerillian
[X] Continued Dialogue
[X] Accept a Major Intimacy of[Friendship towards The Lily]
No. of votes: 1
1986ctcel
[X] Slay Her
[X] Spend Moderate Amounts of Willpower to Only Accept a Minor Intimacy of [Friendship towards The Lily]
No. of votes: 1
trekbook
[X] Spend Moderate Amounts of Willpower to Only Accept a Minor Intimacy of [Friendship towards The Lily]
[X] Continued Dialogue
No. of votes: 2
Anasurimbor
skaro
[X] Spend Moderate Amounts of Willpower to Only Accept a Minor Intimacy of[Friendship towards The Lily]
[X] Continued Dialogue
No. of votes: 4
Ghost
General Tacticus
Shura12305
Microwave MKII
[x][Limit Break] Slay Her - +175,000 XP - Though you have come to an understanding of a sort, it is by no means an accord, and she is far too dangerous an opponent to let live. Exploit now your position as the one still conscious and finish this deadliest of foes. Aside from her armor, you will gain her filigree rapier and iron gauntlet as well - a powerful twinned pair of Artifacts that can be used or bestowed upon a powerful follower. It is perhaps not the perfect moment to kill her, but only a fool allows the perfect to be the enemy of the sufficient. Discharges your Limit Break.
No. of votes: 1
Emanucode
[X] Spend Substantial Amounts of Willpower to Prevent Intimacy Creation
[X][Limit Break] Slay Her - +175,000 XP
No. of votes: 1
Van Ropen
[X][Limit Break] Slay Her - +175,000 XP
[X] Spend Moderate Amounts of Willpower to Only Accept a Minor Intimacy of [Friendship towards The Lily]
No. of votes: 1
DOOMPOTATO
##### 3.19
[X][Limit Break] Slay Her - +175,000 XP - Though you have come to an understanding of a sort, it is by no means an accord, and she is far too dangerous an opponent to let live. Exploit now your position as the one still conscious and finish this deadliest of foes. Aside from her armor, you will gain her filigree rapier and iron gauntlet as well - a powerful twinned pair of Artifacts that can be used or bestowed upon a powerful follower. It is perhaps not the perfect moment to kill her, but only a fool allows the perfect to be the enemy of the sufficient. Discharges your Limit Break.
[X] Spend Substantial Amounts of Willpower to Prevent Intimacy Creation
No. of votes: 1
Da Boyz
[X][Limit Break] Slay Her - +175,000 XP
[X] Spend Substantial Amounts of Willpower
No. of votes: 3
Orm Embar
Vitaris
CrawlingChaos74
[X][Limit Break] Slay Her - +175,000 XP
[X] Spend Substantial Amounts of Willpower to Prevent Intimacy Creation
No. of votes: 6
Dark Lord Bob
Satar
Savonarola
Algalon
meianmaru
vel10
[X][Limit Break] Slay Her -+175,000 XP - Though you have come to an understanding of a sort, it is by no means an accord, and she is far too dangerous an opponent to let live. Exploit now your position as the one still conscious and finish this deadliest of foes. Aside from her armor, you will gain her filigree rapier and iron gauntlet as well - a powerful twinned pair of Artifacts that can be used or bestowed upon a powerful follower. It is perhaps not the perfect moment to kill her, but only a fool allows the perfect to be the enemy of the sufficient. Discharges your Limit Break.
[X] Accept a Major Intimacy of[Friendship towards The Lily]
No. of votes: 1
AZATHOTHoth
[X] Continued Dialogue - You are beginning to wonder if this Gardener had much the same goals you did, and was experimenting to discern the empirically best methodology. If the Seeds was not dissimilar to you in character, that is too great a coincidence to be simply dismissed, though you will not rule it out at this juncture, either. Nonetheless, the Lily's position - that the wisest of men are too often those whose sight is most clouded by hubris, and thus the true necessity of hard decisions is nearly impossible to discern, making genuine intention-based ethics the best practical code - is not entirely unreasonable. It is perhaps not for you, but she is someone you could work with, on the matters of the Emerald Mountain and her small city of refugees. Her uncalculating benevolence can place a check on Odyssial's more extreme tendencies, and she is likely the only person with a hope of stopping you in Limit Break.
[X] Spend Moderate Amounts of Willpower to Only Accept a Minor Intimacy of [Friendship towards The Lily]
No. of votes: 1
TheOtherSandman
[X] Continued Dialogue
[X] Spend Moderate Amounts of Willpower to Only Accept a Minor Intimacy of [Friendship towards The Lily]
No. of votes: 5
Cavalier
SirLagginton
Jorlem
afterthought53
Ridiculously Average Guy
[X] Continued Dialogue
[X] Spend Moderate Amounts of Willpower to Only Accept a Minor Intimacy of [Friendship towards The Lily]
No. of votes: 19
Alectai
LordOfMurder
BSRK Aditya
Mishco
dragon
Dream Logic
Jouaint
gigantisrex
inawarminister
mrttao
Kurowari
veekie
Random Asian Person
Elero
aja318
useofstrike32
Aloysius
Archanist
wingstrike96
[x] Continued Dialogue
[x] Spend Moderate amounts of Willpower
No. of votes: 4
Emerald Oracle
Serous
Katreus
CharlBaal
[X] Continued Dialogue
[X] Spend Substantial Amounts of Willpower
No. of votes: 1
Diller
[X][Limit Break] Slay Her
No. of votes: 2
Reckless_Sun
Tasoli
[X] Continued Dialogue - You are beginning to wonder if this Gardener had much the same goals you did, and was experimenting to discern the empirically best methodology. If the Seeds was not dissimilar to you in character, that is too great a coincidence to be simply dismissed, though you will not rule it out at this juncture, either. Nonetheless, the Lily's position - that the wisest of men are too often those whose sight is most clouded by hubris, and thus the true necessity of hard decisions is nearly impossible to discern, making genuine intention-based ethics the best practical code - is not entirely unreasonable. It is perhaps not for you, but she is someone you could work with, on the matters of the Emerald Mountain and her small city of refugees. Her uncalculating benevolence can place a check on Odyssial's more extreme tendencies, and she is likely the only person with a hope of stopping you in Limit Break.
[X] Spend Moderate Amounts of Willpower to Only Accept a Minor Intimacy of [Friendship towards The Lily]
No. of votes: 1
Usernames
[X] Continued Dialogue
[X] Spend Substantial Amounts of Willpower to Prevent Intimacy Creation
No. of votes: 1
Thomasfoolery
[X][Limit Break] Slay Her - +175,000 XP
[X] Accept a Major Intimacy of[Friendship towards The Lily]
No. of votes: 1
Cerillian
[X] Continued Dialogue
[X] Accept a Major Intimacy of[Friendship towards The Lily]
No. of votes: 1
1986ctcel
[X] Slay Her
[X] Spend Moderate Amounts of Willpower to Only Accept a Minor Intimacy of [Friendship towards The Lily]
No. of votes: 1
trekbook
[X] Spend Moderate Amounts of Willpower to Only Accept a Minor Intimacy of [Friendship towards The Lily]
[X] Continued Dialogue
No. of votes: 2
Anasurimbor
skaro
[X] Spend Moderate Amounts of Willpower to Only Accept a Minor Intimacy of[Friendship towards The Lily]
[X] Continued Dialogue
No. of votes: 4
Ghost
General Tacticus
Shura12305
Microwave MKII
[x][Limit Break] Slay Her - +175,000 XP - Though you have come to an understanding of a sort, it is by no means an accord, and she is far too dangerous an opponent to let live. Exploit now your position as the one still conscious and finish this deadliest of foes. Aside from her armor, you will gain her filigree rapier and iron gauntlet as well - a powerful twinned pair of Artifacts that can be used or bestowed upon a powerful follower. It is perhaps not the perfect moment to kill her, but only a fool allows the perfect to be the enemy of the sufficient. Discharges your Limit Break.
No. of votes: 1
Emanucode
[X] Spend Substantial Amounts of Willpower to Prevent Intimacy Creation
[X][Limit Break] Slay Her - +175,000 XP
No. of votes: 1
Van Ropen
[X][Limit Break] Slay Her - +175,000 XP
[X] Spend Moderate Amounts of Willpower to Only Accept a Minor Intimacy of [Friendship towards The Lily]
No. of votes: 1
DOOMPOTATO
Vote tally:
##### 3.18
[X] Spend Substantial Amounts of Willpower to Prevent Intimacy Creation
No. of votes: 13
Da Boyz, Dark Lord Bob, Satar, Savonarola, Algalon, Thomasfoolery, meianmaru, vel10, Van Ropen
,Orm Embar, Vitaris, Diller, CrawlingChaos74
[X][Limit Break] Slay Her - +175,000 XP
No. of votes: 18
Orm Embar, Dark Lord Bob, Vitaris, Satar, Savonarola, Algalon, CrawlingChaos74, Cerillian, meianmaru, vel10, Van Ropen, DOOMPOTATO, Da Boyz, AZATHOTHoth, Emanucode, Reckless_Sun, Tasoli
trekbook
[X] Accept a Major Intimacy of[Friendship towards The Lily]
No. of votes: 3
AZATHOTHoth, Cerillian, 1986ctcel
[X] Spend Moderate Amounts of Willpower to Only Accept a Minor Intimacy of [Friendship towards The Lily]
No. of votes: 38
TheOtherSandman, Cavalier, Alectai, SirLagginton, LordOfMurder, BSRK Aditya, Mishco, dragon, Dream Logic, Jorlem, Jouaint, gigantisrex, inawarminister, mrttao, Kurowari, veekie, Random Asian Person, Elero, aja318, useofstrike32, Aloysius, Archanist, afterthought53, Ridiculously Average Guy, wingstrike96, Usernames, trekbook, Anasurimbor, Ghost, skaro, General Tacticus, Shura12305, Microwave MKII, DOOMPOTATO, Emerald Oracle, Serous, Katreus, CharlBaal
[X] Continued Dialogue
No. of votes: 39
Cavalier, Alectai, SirLagginton, LordOfMurder, BSRK Aditya, Mishco, dragon, Dream Logic, Jorlem, Jouaint, gigantisrex, inawarminister, Emerald Oracle, Serous, Katreus, mrttao, Kurowari, CharlBaal, veekie, Diller, Random Asian Person, Elero, aja318, useofstrike32, Aloysius, Archanist, afterthought53, Ridiculously Average Guy, wingstrike96, Thomasfoolery, 1986ctcel, Anasurimbor, Ghost, skaro, General Tacticus, Shura12305, Microwave MKII, TheOtherSandman, Usernames
##### 3.18
[X] Spend Substantial Amounts of Willpower to Prevent Intimacy Creation
No. of votes: 13
Da Boyz, Dark Lord Bob, Satar, Savonarola, Algalon, Thomasfoolery, meianmaru, vel10, Van Ropen
,Orm Embar, Vitaris, Diller, CrawlingChaos74
[X][Limit Break] Slay Her - +175,000 XP
No. of votes: 18
Orm Embar, Dark Lord Bob, Vitaris, Satar, Savonarola, Algalon, CrawlingChaos74, Cerillian, meianmaru, vel10, Van Ropen, DOOMPOTATO, Da Boyz, AZATHOTHoth, Emanucode, Reckless_Sun, Tasoli
trekbook
[X] Accept a Major Intimacy of[Friendship towards The Lily]
No. of votes: 3
AZATHOTHoth, Cerillian, 1986ctcel
[X] Spend Moderate Amounts of Willpower to Only Accept a Minor Intimacy of [Friendship towards The Lily]
No. of votes: 38
TheOtherSandman, Cavalier, Alectai, SirLagginton, LordOfMurder, BSRK Aditya, Mishco, dragon, Dream Logic, Jorlem, Jouaint, gigantisrex, inawarminister, mrttao, Kurowari, veekie, Random Asian Person, Elero, aja318, useofstrike32, Aloysius, Archanist, afterthought53, Ridiculously Average Guy, wingstrike96, Usernames, trekbook, Anasurimbor, Ghost, skaro, General Tacticus, Shura12305, Microwave MKII, DOOMPOTATO, Emerald Oracle, Serous, Katreus, CharlBaal
[X] Continued Dialogue
No. of votes: 39
Cavalier, Alectai, SirLagginton, LordOfMurder, BSRK Aditya, Mishco, dragon, Dream Logic, Jorlem, Jouaint, gigantisrex, inawarminister, Emerald Oracle, Serous, Katreus, mrttao, Kurowari, CharlBaal, veekie, Diller, Random Asian Person, Elero, aja318, useofstrike32, Aloysius, Archanist, afterthought53, Ridiculously Average Guy, wingstrike96, Thomasfoolery, 1986ctcel, Anasurimbor, Ghost, skaro, General Tacticus, Shura12305, Microwave MKII, TheOtherSandman, Usernames
Rihaku
The Internet
Hm, Slay Her closed the gap a bit more on votes. This is still quite brutal though. You guys sure you don't want to take this Limit Break? Would you prefer, say, the Lily to die or Talomar to? Not that he necessarily will, but Talomar in this case is probably not even as important / close to Uly as some of the people at risk. And it may not be that Uly attacks them directly, but if they persist in getting in his way...
You know, if voting for communication is an implicit statement of preference for Lily's survival over our other allies, that'll be great when future moral arguments come up. I mean, favouring the life of a morally opposed mass murderer we just met over the waifu we've known for years is a great precedent.
- Location
- Southern Virginia
Yeah, sure, that's why people aren't voting to murder the Lily in cold blood. And "morally opposed" is just...
Mind if this were not Exalted with its at least theoretical ability to have an all-but omnipotent, omniscient, and omni-competent figure administering the Law, then Lily would be right and Ulyssian would be wrong. Mind, that's because Lily doesn't actually hold the strawman position of Professor Candide that most of the people arguing to kill her have claimed for her, but merely that deontological ethical systems work out better in the long run because humans are shit at calculating utility but relatively good at following rules. This is a conclusion that anyone remotely acquainted with human nature should be able to come to pretty rapidly.
And even here going into infinite-WP reactor Limit Break mode to exploit the Great Curse strongly suggests that Odyssial's judgment was not, in fact, infallible.
No, she can't. She can help us mitigate Limit Breaks by fighting us while we're in one, which is a hilariously unproductive course of action that will surely not have devastating consequences for all of Luseng. Collateral damage, yo; look at how much this fight spawned on its own. Oh, and it will undoubtedly blow the lid on the fact that she's associating with us, because how else is she supposed to restrain the demigod who's gone off the deep end without blatantly using her powers?
The Lily's death is what actually prevents the upcoming Limit Break. With a little bit of luck and careful analysis, we might even discover that there's something to prevent, which is absolutely critical because Ulyssian has no idea that he is currently a ticking time bomb waiting to inflict devastating damage on the people he cares about.
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I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd be much more receptive to having the Lily as an ally if it didn't put Moon, Talomar, and most of our other friends at risk. From an out of character perspective, it's the life of a stranger over risking what we've built and the lives of the people we care most for.
I'd have thought that the clarity of Odyssial's Limit Break would've aided him in his calculations; rather than being shackled by the strictures of human judgment, he can perfectly calculate the utility of any course of action. He did change his Limit Break to benefit him, after all; it was originally Heart of Flint.
- Location
- Fabulously Rainbow Ireland
And then the NEXT time we limit break (and there will be a next time) we'll have no one near our level thats able to stop us if we decide to murder all our friends because they "get in our way" and in that situation I'm more than happy to accept collateral damage and such if it means she stops us from doing something we'll regret.
Ahem rule 6
Note the bolded?
You're so sure there will be a next time, are you? Who's to say the Lily will even be around for that; she's a Knight Errant, even if we do successfully convince her (which is not guaranteed, for all that people are acting like it is) she may decide to, you know, wander off. Go fight for justice somewhere else. She's not going to stand around being our personal hall monitor, because she has independent goals of her own and ideology that she believes in strongly. Oh, and the consequences of being seen consorting with the Lily still haven't vanished between now and the last time I elaborated on them, and using the Lily in this capacity will surely reveal that we have been treating with the enemy.
Ok, and...? The game may contain hubris. So what? That's a statement about the themes we're supposed to be exploring. What it is not, is an argument that we should try to swim against the narrative current and avoid trying to grapple with the consequences of incredible power and hubris, which is what you seem to be arguing for.
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