[Exalted, ?] Most High

1986ctcel · May 2, 2015

Emerald Oracle said:
ahah. ahahahahahahahah. Oh this is hilarious. If Zao knows about Syn there is no way in the Infinite Hells of the Abyss or the Seven Mounting Heavens he's going to let Moon leave his place of power where he can protect her, let alone join the greatest possible target of her ire. His protection of her is probably one of his defining ties.

Since we chose the option NOT to go to Seacrown, we'll probably get a letter about this! This is hilarious and also I point and laugh at the entire Lily contingent (in a respectful way). LOOK! Look what your constant search for power has wrought!

Seriously if that does happen I would be vastly entertained and only modestly disappointed at the lack of Moon. By the By @Rihaku, for the letters, would general write-ins of the style used in Dromon's A Dragon of the North quest be acceptable if other people wanted to do stuff? Those tend to be very generalized things that say what and how they'd write the letter rather than actually writing it, and I thought the option might be helpful to those who are having difficulty getting letters written but have expressed an interest.

Well wouldn't that be a good thing since we wouldn't have to worry about hurting her in Limit break?

Emerald Oracle · May 3, 2015

1986ctcel said:
Well wouldn't that be a good thing since we wouldn't have to worry about hurting her in Limit break?

Possibly, perhaps even probably! The sticking point comes from the fact that Zao isn't going to let her out of his sight or his site until after the psycho bitch from hell is dealt with. Which again, is probably wise, but also probably entirely within her calculations. We're caught in a bit of a conundrum at the moment. Unless we still get to Seacrown somehow we'll have some Serious Problems getting any of the pertinent information. It's too sensitive.

Any messages that were captured or otherwise misdirected could prove catastrophic for all concerned. It will be interesting to see how things go. Not necessarily in the ancient curse sense, but possibly!

Rihaku · May 3, 2015

What's the current vote count?

Rihaku · May 3, 2015

Microwave MKII said:
While Seeds had an ideology that was more in line with ours, without the means to carry out his ideals in an agreeable manner, what Lily has is an ideology that can at least be somewhat bent over time if provided with evidence, AND the potential power to carry out these ideals without resorting to, well, turning everyone into zombies or ghosts.

Not just zombies OR ghosts; he wanted to turn them into a zombie PLUS a ghost! It's super-efficient. The zombie does the manual labor, the ghost the cerebral!

1986ctcel said:
Well wouldn't that be a good thing since we wouldn't have to worry about hurting her in Limit break?

That assumes your Limit Break stops at a Major Intimacy, which... is rather something to assume.

Emerald Oracle said:
Possibly, perhaps even probably! The sticking point comes from the fact that Zao isn't going to let her out of his sight or his site until after the psycho bitch from hell is dealt with. Which again, is probably wise, but also probably entirely within her calculations. We're caught in a bit of a conundrum at the moment. Unless we still get to Seacrown somehow we'll have some Serious Problems getting any of the pertinent information. It's too sensitive.

Any messages that were captured or otherwise misdirected could prove catastrophic for all concerned. It will be interesting to see how things go. Not necessarily in the ancient curse sense, but possibly!

I was just joking, Zao has no way to know about Anys. Pretty much the only indicator would be that Hesiesh hasn't shown up in a while, but that could be for any number of reasons.

Serous · May 3, 2015

Vote tally:
##### 3.18

[X] Spend Substantial Amounts of Willpower to Prevent Intimacy Creation
No. of votes: 12
Da Boyz, Dark Lord Bob, Satar, Savonarola, Algalon, Thomasfoolery, meianmaru, vel10, Orm Embar, Vitaris, Diller, CrawlingChaos74

[X][Limit Break] Slay Her - +175,000 XP
No. of votes: 16
Orm Embar, Dark Lord Bob, Vitaris, Satar, Savonarola, Algalon, CrawlingChaos74, Cerillian, meianmaru, vel10, Da Boyz, AZATHOTHoth, Emanucode, Reckless_Sun, Tasoli, trekbook

[X] Accept a Major Intimacy of[Friendship towards The Lily]
No. of votes: 4
AZATHOTHoth, Cerillian, 1986ctcel, Serous

[X] Spend Moderate Amounts of Willpower to Only Accept a Minor Intimacy of [Friendship towards The Lily]
No. of votes: 36
TheOtherSandman, Cavalier, Alectai, SirLagginton, LordOfMurder, BSRK Aditya, Mishco, dragon, Dream Logic, Jorlem, Jouaint, gigantisrex, inawarminister, mrttao, Kurowari, veekie, Random Asian Person, Elero, aja318, useofstrike32, Aloysius, Archanist, afterthought53, Ridiculously Average Guy, wingstrike96, Usernames, trekbook, Anasurimbor, Ghost, skaro, General Tacticus, Shura12305, Microwave MKII
,Emerald Oracle,Katreus, CharlBaal

[X] Continued Dialogue
No. of votes: 39
Cavalier, Alectai, SirLagginton, LordOfMurder, BSRK Aditya, Mishco, dragon, Dream Logic, Jorlem, Jouaint, gigantisrex, inawarminister, Emerald Oracle, Serous, Katreus, mrttao, Kurowari, CharlBaal, veekie, Diller, Random Asian Person, Elero, aja318, useofstrike32, Aloysius, Archanist, afterthought53, Ridiculously Average Guy, wingstrike96, Thomasfoolery, 1986ctcel, Anasurimbor, Ghost, skaro, General Tacticus,
TheOtherSandman, Usernames , Shura12305, Microwave MKII

Rihaku · May 3, 2015

Huh, Slay Her is actually gaining! And arguments are far more even than votes anyway.

Orm Embar · May 3, 2015

Vote tally:
##### 3.21
[X][Limit Break] Slay Her - +175,000 XP
No. of votes: 16
Da Boyz, Orm Embar, Vitaris, CrawlingChaos74, Dark Lord Bob, Satar, Savonarola, Algalon, meianmaru, vel10, AZATHOTHoth, Reckless_Sun, Tasoli, Emanucode, Cerillian, trekbook

[X] Spend Substantial Amounts of Willpower to Prevent Intimacy Creation
No. of votes: 12
Da Boyz, Orm Embar, Vitaris, CrawlingChaos74, Dark Lord Bob, Satar, Savonarola, Algalon, meianmaru, vel10, Diller, Thomasfoolery

[X] Accept a Major Intimacy of[Friendship towards The Lily]
No. of votes: 3
AZATHOTHoth, Cerillian, 1986ctcel

[X] Continued Dialogue
No. of votes: 39
TheOtherSandman, Cavalier, SirLagginton, Jorlem, afterthought53, Ridiculously Average Guy, Alectai, LordOfMurder, BSRK Aditya, Mishco, dragon, Dream Logic, Jouaint, gigantisrex, inawarminister, mrttao, Kurowari, veekie, Random Asian Person, Elero, aja318, useofstrike32, Aloysius, Archanist, wingstrike96, Emerald Oracle, Serous, Katreus, CharlBaal, Ghost, General Tacticus, Shura12305, Microwave MKII, Usernames, Diller, Thomasfoolery, 1986ctcel, Anasurimbor, skaro

[X] Spend Moderate Amounts of Willpower to Only Accept a Minor Intimacy of [Friendship towards The Lily]
No. of votes: 37
TheOtherSandman, Cavalier, SirLagginton, Jorlem, afterthought53, Ridiculously Average Guy, Alectai, LordOfMurder, BSRK Aditya, Mishco, dragon, Dream Logic, Jouaint, gigantisrex, inawarminister, mrttao, Kurowari, veekie, Random Asian Person, Elero, aja318, useofstrike32, Aloysius, Archanist, wingstrike96, Emerald Oracle, Serous, Katreus, CharlBaal, Ghost, General Tacticus, Shura12305, Microwave MKII, Usernames, trekbook, Anasurimbor, skaro

Orm Embar · May 3, 2015

Serous said:
##### 3.18

Your links don't work; it's a problem with the older versions of the vote-counter. Also, you appear to have misfiled your own vote; either that, or there's a more recent one the counter isn't picking up.

Rihaku said:
That assumes your Limit Break stops at a Major Intimacy, which... is rather something to assume.

I'm not ashamed to admit that the prospect of hurting Moon is one that terrifies me, and I will do everything I possibly can to prevent that from even being a remote possibility.

Alectai · May 3, 2015

Rihaku said:
That assumes your Limit Break stops at a Major Intimacy, which... is rather something to assume.

Most do, in fact, end when you end up hurting someone you have a Major Intimacy towards.

Even Deliberate Cruelty lets you snap out of it if your actions cause harm to someone you have a Major or Defining Tie to!

It does seem that Third Edition, to couple with the whole "You never know exactly what your Limit Break will entail" bit, also gives important characters in your storyline plot protection from "Oh, I Berserk Angered and killed my family in a rage, oh the drama!"

That may be a thing in myth (Heracles did the same thing, twice if I recall), but not everybody likes playing a game where a middling GM can look at your sheet, say "Okay, you go into a Berserk Rage and destroy everything you know and love, I guess that's what happens when you tie yourself down!". So if you're setting it up that "Ulyssian in Limit Break will not stop, even if he's harming his loved ones"... Well, that's a break from the canon material, or a Limit Break manifestation that's carefully crafted to punish players for bothering to give a damn, and I'd rather like to believe that you're not the kind of GM who does that.

So yes, the system absolutely does reward surrounding you with people who don't necessary agree with you, who you nonetheless care for you, and absolutely does punish you for surrounding yourself with yes-men. Boon Companions who have differing values are much more likely to end up containing your Limit Breaks, while surrounding yourself with nothing but people who would agree with you on principle are likely to either avoid the subject or think you're finally doing it properly.

Dark Lord Bob · May 3, 2015

Orm Embar said:
I'm not ashamed to admit that the prospect of hurting Moon is one that terrifies me, and I will do everything I possibly can to prevent that from even being a remote possibility.

People talk about Lily being able to restrain us in the case of Limit Break, but I wonder: once Moon arrives, is Uly more likely to be around Moon or Lily, at any random time?

Because if it's the former then Lily stopping our rampage post-Moon isn't going to be much consolation.

Rihaku · May 3, 2015

Alectai said:
It does seem that Third Edition, to couple with the whole "You never know exactly what your Limit Break will entail" bit, also gives important characters in your storyline plot protection from "Oh, I Berserk Angered and killed my family in a rage, oh the drama!"

Odyssial customized his Limit Break, remember. It always does the same thing, and you guys already know what it does, pretty much. There were configurations of Odyssial that did not do this, but H10 G10 Odyssial is definitely not one of them. Remember point 6 in the Rules threadmark!

Alectai · May 3, 2015

... So, basically, Odyssial is fucking us from beyond the grave, actively, and overwrote the Great Curse with something completely uncontainable because he was too strong and too lack-of-giving a fuck for it to be a downside to him? To the point where it's become permanent to his Exaltation?

That seems like something of an oversight on his part.

1986ctcel · May 3, 2015

Alectai said:
... So, basically, Odyssial is fucking us from beyond the grave, actively, and overwrote the Great Curse with something completely uncontainable because he was too strong and too lack-of-giving a fuck for it to be a downside to him? To the point where it's become permanent to his Exaltation?

That seems like something of an oversight on his part.

Well Rule 6 says

6. This is a game about the consequences of incredible power and the hubris that may accompany it. You will craft the legacy of a character with truly apocalyptic might, and later play in the shadow of that legacy. Its echoes - consequences which resound through millennia - will deeply influence the world to come. Even for one of the Exalted, your character will have the power to shatter thrones, break the rules, and brand his legend across the face of the world. Whether that is a good thing for the world, is up to you.

Soooooooo yeah

Rihaku · May 3, 2015

Alectai said:
... So, basically, Odyssial is fucking us from beyond the grave, actively, and overwrote the Great Curse with something completely uncontainable because he was too strong and too lack-of-giving a fuck for it to be a downside to him?

It doesn't manifest in any way that he would consider a downside. He had complete control over its nature; why would he cause it to disadvantage him? It is designed to maximize his advantages.

In general, I pay absolutely no credit to arguments of the form "<Frame course of action X as something only BAD GMs do>" and then "<assert Rihaku therefore would never do it!>." The course of action being so framed is almost never accurately characterized and it's a simple distortion fallacy. That's not to say you did that specifically, but in general it's a bit of putting words into the GM's mouth.

Anasurimbor · May 3, 2015

Random ultra-paranoid thought about the Emerald Mountain: What if leaving it alone is not actually the safe course action? At first glance, it appears to be a prison, to keep something dangerous trapped, but what if it is actually an egg, to keep the world out while something dangerous matures inside?

I'm not saying that it's likely, but it's possible, and not something to be entirely dismissed out of hand. Certainly worth investigating at least briefly. Ulyssian is decently positioned to do so, with both knowledge and resources.

Could Lily really live with herself if a disaster occurred because she blindly assumed that ignoring the mountain was the correct course of action? Wouldn't it be better to wait a bit, just to be sure?

Orm Embar · May 3, 2015

Microwave MKII said:
Was hesitating to actually post and vote since at the moment I'm very busy with finals art projects and can't do any illustrations atm to back up or, well, illustrate the outcomes I'm voting for since I'd like to at least make up for the XP we'd not be getting by me voting for the non-red options if they do win; but Orm caught me lurking (damn you, Orm! but thank you for the compliment on the stuff for the last quests) and now I feel an obligation to at least say hi, make a shaky promise that I will most definitely try to illustrate for this quest when school is over, and vote!

It's okay, you've had your revenge. Damn you, Microwave, for posting comprehensive and well-phrased arguments against the option I'm advocating for. Also, welcome to the quest; we get experience for new posters, so you're already helping. Thanks for that. Now, to try and live up to my user title:

Microwave MKII said:
want to at least try at an alliance or some kind of pact of "I won't fuck with your shit if you don't fuck with mine" now that keeping Ambition/not dying is a thing we've overcome, for now.

I'm very glad we dodged that particular bullet, yes. I'm not sure what the exact terms of the hypothetical pact people seem to want would be; they all want the Lily (part and parcel of Appearance 7, though I dearly wish it didn't work through the 4th wall), but nobody can really point out what we would do with her, other than point her at Anys Syn. Who we have no idea where to find, in-character. Mutual pacts of non-aggression are a good idea, but minding one's own business doesn't work as well with ideologically driven people. She has a mission she wants to carry out, views she wants to spread; she conceives of herself as a Knight Errant, whose entire shtick is butting into other peoples' business.

Microwave MKII said:
As the foundation of her ideology is the history that her sister provided of power systems that failed and fell. In part, from what I understand at least of her, her insistence on having actions driven by what the heart believes is right (we'll call it "emotional bias") is also in part because of this foundation knowledge/understanding - in short, she may be able to be reasoned with. Remember, the whole theme of her character is opposites and contradictions in union, so it might be a waste to simply write her off as unreasonable due to her emotional bias - she may be reasonable because of her emotional bias, or vice-versa (unless Rihaku says otherwise).

True, but reasoning with people is a sword that cuts both ways, and if we're attempting to win her over... well, she'll be trying to do the same. And to extend the metaphor a step further, her social sword is a lot sharper than we are. Given the way social defenses work in 3E, the chances of her not convincing us in the long run are... slim. We're already faced with the possibility of a Major Intimacy of friendship, just from meeting with her! While we might gain some ground with her, we'll be working uphill against her emotional bias (Odyssial of all people should understand the hold that little sisters can have over one's heart), and she'll gain far more with us.

Microwave MKII said:
If shown evidence (Luseng's growth despite all odds) that there is, indeed, a Way - that Uly/Ody's utopia/remaking of Creation and that his way of doing things is not always guaranteed to end in failure or corruption - she may be able to be convinced, or at least inclined not to fuck with your stuff for a while to further observe and evaluate your evidence, and may be open to an exchange of favors every now and then. Of course, if our evidence/example fails in the long term we may be looking at facing her as an opponent later, but with Anys on the horizon it might be a better investment to make an ally for now and not possibly draw the immediate attention of the Gardener.

The Gardener is apparently interested in Luseng, invested enough to have made a pact with the two other powers threatening the Satrapy, even if the details of that are rather thin on the ground. Since we've slain the Seeds, I think it's likely we already have her attention. We know very little of the Lily's relationship with the Gardener (whose watchword seems to be secrecy), but it seems reasonable to assume that she's beholden to the entity that Exalted her on some level. Not only does the Lily's massive charisma present a threat to our control of Luseng in the long term, if she's given free reign with the populace and our legion, but we might also be giving the Gardener a foothold in our camp that she can use to advance her agenda.

Microwave MKII said:
As for Emerald Mountain, perhaps we can prod further about the nature of what lurks within, and perhaps offer assistance in defeating it?

According to Rihaku our odds are slim even with the Lily. Whatever's inside the Mountain has remained there for... who knows how long, really. Let's learn from the example of Durin and not poke the balrog, particularly if we don't need the wealth the Mountain holds. Which we currently don't, unless we screw up our incoming profits by doing something reckless like bringing the fury of Creation's greatest empire down on our head...

Microwave MKII said:
That aside, -snorfle- maybe if Continued Dialogue doesn't appear to bear any fruit, could we THEN Limit Break on her?

Sadly, I do not think this is an option; it would hardly be a Limit Break if we could have our cake and eat it too! If only life in Creation was so convenient...

Alectai · May 3, 2015

Rihaku said:
It doesn't manifest in any way that he would consider a downside. He had complete control over its nature; why would he cause it to disadvantage him? It is designed to maximize his advantages.

It's also something that only really works when he answers to nobody, and has access to the fullest extent of his power and influence. For Ulyssian's situation where he is most definitely only a medium-sized fish, with lots of sharks descending on him, he really can't afford to throw away a powerbase or potential allies just because it's efficient at the time.

I mean, what did Odyssial expect? Or did he just get so comfortable with it that he forgot to reverse the changes, or shuck the whole thing off? Or did he expect to just instantly respawn somewhere and pick up right where he left off? The alternative is that he both, sealed his higher memories so as to retain the utility of a new incarnation, but left a curse on that provides pavlovian conditioning encouraging the exact same behaviour in times of stress that he indulged in, just because it worked for him once he was already beefy enough that hardly anyone could gainsay him anyway?

Orm Embar · May 3, 2015

Alectai said:
I mean, what did Odyssial expect? Or did he just get so comfortable with it that he forgot to reverse the changes, or defeat the Curse?

I think he thought that we wouldn't be spending all our time in Limit Break, and that we would learn to manage it once we figured out what it did, in general terms. Really, you only need someone like the Fairest (or the Lily) around if you've got a permanent Limit Break; having someone around for 'containment' is more likely to be an obstacle the rest of the time that, ironically, only incurs additional Limit. It's only because we're being bushwhacked at a hilariously inopportune time that the upcoming one is such a great threat.

skaro · May 3, 2015

Rihaku said:
It doesn't manifest in any way that he would consider a downside. He had complete control over its nature; why would he cause it to disadvantage him? It is designed to maximize his advantages.

In general, I pay absolutely no credit to arguments of the form "<Frame course of action X as something only BAD GMs do>" and then "<assert Rihaku therefore would never do it!>." The course of action being so framed is almost never accurately characterized and it's a simple distortion fallacy. That's not to say you did that specifically, but in general it's a bit of putting words into the GM's mouth.

I think you used to said that Ody think " Why they empower their enemy with great curse?.

Weird"

Thomasfoolery · May 3, 2015

Alectai said:
I mean, what did Odyssial expect? Or did he just get so comfortable with it that he forgot to reverse the changes, or shuck the whole thing off? Or did he expect to just instantly respawn somewhere and pick up right where he left off?

I imagine his efforts were concentrated on not dying, rather than trying to rework the mods to a buff that was probably helping him... not die, at that exact moment.

Orm Embar · May 3, 2015

Oh, something just occurred to me; we are being given a chance to Limit Break now, but... why? Is it, perhaps, because this ideological conflict triggered our Limit Condition, whatever that might be? In light of that, I think we might want to seriously reconsider whether or not having her around in the long term would be helpful...

Van Ropen · May 3, 2015

Alectai said:
It's also something that only really works when he answers to nobody, and has access to the fullest extent of his power and influence. For Ulyssian's situation where he is most definitely only a medium-sized fish, with lots of sharks descending on him, he really can't afford to throw away a powerbase or potential allies just because it's efficient at the time.

I mean, what did Odyssial expect? Or did he just get so comfortable with it that he forgot to reverse the changes, or shuck the whole thing off? Or did he expect to just instantly respawn somewhere and pick up right where he left off? The alternative is that he both, sealed his higher memories so as to retain the utility of a new incarnation, but left a curse on that provides pavlovian conditioning encouraging the exact same behaviour in times of stress that he indulged in, just because it worked for him once he was already beefy enough that hardly anyone could gainsay him anyway?

Well the resurrection was a backup plan for his backup plan as I understand it, so...he had better things to do?

[X] Spend Substantial Amounts of Willpower to Prevent Intimacy Creation
[X][Limit Break] Slay Her - +175,000 XP

Alectai · May 3, 2015

Orm Embar said:
Oh, something just occurred to me; we are being given a chance to Limit Break now, but... why? Is it, perhaps, because this ideological conflict triggered our Limit Condition, whatever that might be? In light of that, I think we might want to seriously reconsider whether or not having her around in the long term would be helpful...

We also had a Limit Break opportunity with Ayala's existence reminding us of Nio. We had a chance to make the problem go away by just killing them on the spot.

So, what does "Our interaction with Ayala" and "Our interaction with Lily" have in common, and we might figure out what our Limit Condition is...

Well, that, and the whole "We gained a shitload of extra Stress when we accidentally killed Polemgaos", but Stress wasn't the same thing as Limit.

Or alternately, we're not actually that close to Limit Breaking, but because of Odyssial's modifications, we have the option to basically vent it at will by lashing out in times of stress.

Orm Embar · May 3, 2015

Alectai said:
We also had a Limit Break opportunity with Ayala's existence reminding us of Nio. We had a chance to make the problem go away by just killing them on the spot.

So, what is it that "Being reminded of Nio" and "Our interaction with Lily" have in common, and we might figure out what our Limit Condition is...

Forced to compromise, our assumptions being challenged... I think the last one is most likely.

Cavalier · May 3, 2015

He was also given the opportunity to Limit Break when confronting the Infernals. It is important that Limit Break is a narrative device as much as a mechanic. We did not take the opportunity then and have not yet had one, so our Limit Track cannot have hit 10 yet. And the opportunity was tangentially related to killing Polemgaos; whether it was because he slew the Dragonblooded without intending it, or because he ignored Ambition and failed to seize the moment to start the Civil War in a position of comparative advantage, or...

Well. Maybe it isn't the Limit Break that would cause Ulyssian to kill them. Rather, killing them causes the Limit Break?

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