[Exalted, ?] Most High

[Dark Lord Bob]

Wow, thinking about it a bit, they ability to effect a manner reminiscent of someone who the viewer failed is such an Ebon Dragon charm.

He can see that they're lying, sure. But that doesn't mean he can get it out of them.

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IIRC you can choose to voluntarily break oaths, it just causes you ironic terrible luck? I would not want to be in a position wherein the Ebon Dragon wants me to break an oath.

 

[Rihaku]

So we definitely don't get allies out of this and nothing we can do could actually bind them to silence in the face of the Ebon Dragon? And they know a secret that if shared would lead to almost literally the whole world actively trying to kill us? And if we kill them we get 100k XP and two extra actions next turn?

Killing them has never seemed more attractive.

Edit:
Hell, I know we're not going to (use the training time for that purpose, I mean) but killing her would give us enough XP to be a Celestial Sorcerer (obviating any need of her) and the extra actions necessary to accomplish it within a month.

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It would only give you 60k Normal XP, the other 40k would be Solar, like any other XP source.

Did you ever go into the details of the collateral for taking down Odyssial? Aside from the mention of him taking more than a pound of flesh from two incarnae, and the obvious death of countless exalts?

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Yes, it was in the last quest though. The casualties this time were higher, since Creation almost got destroyed.

 

[Alectai]

Sorcery takes two Charms, and the relevant Integrity Charms are like 4-6 at most. She has between 31 and 40+ Charms, not counting spells. In 3E there's no social parrying, the only defense is Integrity. Also, Nilul didn't really target Ayala much, Ayala sort of talked over her. Most high Essence Exalts are incredibly good at tons at shit. Look at Uly. Perfect disguise is two charms. Perfect instinct for shadiness is one charm. Perfect cheating at gambling is two charms.

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So, the moment that Ayala got involved, Nilul was completely shut down?

That... Kind of does lend credence to my theory of "She has some kind of effect that makes her remind you of your greatest failure" thing, because Nilul isn't the sort who would get just "Shut Down" the moment someone else started talking.

And if she's this experienced in this iteration of the game, that sort of suggests she's either a True Believer, or she's getting enough bennies from the Yozis that she knows they're treacherous at best, and just doesn't care.

 

[Rihaku]

Wow, thinking about it a bit, they ability to effect a manner reminiscent of someone who the viewer failed is such an Ebon Dragon charm.

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Mm.

IIRC you can choose to voluntarily break oaths, it just causes you ironic terrible luck? I would not want to be in a position wherein the Ebon Dragon wants me to break an oath.

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*Shrug* They can just go rogue.

So, the moment that Ayala got involved, Nilul was completely shut down?

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Ayala is very hard to convince of anything because she has Integrity charms, but that doesn't affect Fei Ling at all. If you had Righteous Lion Defense it wouldn't protect Hero from Nilul at all.

Nilul could have kept talking and gotten into a shouting match which she would eventually have won, but she judged that as too risky given the threat of imminent combat.

 

[arsdraconis]

Last quest's high score was from a relatively suboptimal Odyssial

 

[Dark Lord Bob]

Yes, it was in the last quest though. The casualties this time were higher, since Creation almost got destroyed.

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Last Quest:

Odyssial Kill Count Chart (V2)
+(WAR IN HEAVEN/USURPTION)+
+ 6,000,000 Chosen of the Dragons. Something in the ballpark of 1,200,000 Dragon-Blooded Brotherhoods of every flavor.
Includes sorcerers.
+ 24 to 36 Chosen of the Maidens. Probably includes a mix of mostly younger Sidereals, with a few Elders thrown in for flavor.
+ 14 Solars. Probably those that were being a suboptimal obstacle to Odyssial's plans.
+ (estimate) 8,000,000,000- 12,000,000,000 Mortals. This is the mortals and robots allied with the Usurpers at the dawn of the War in Heaven.
+ (estimate) 200,000 Enemy Spirits/Gods. Probably residents of Yu-Shan, summoned demons, or placated elementals used by the usurpers.
Edit'd.

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Odyssial: Bad Motherfucker.

 

[Alectai]

Ugh, so Ayala isn't a diplomat, she's just apparently taken a good chunk of the Integrity Tree, that's even worse! Because it means she'll just stick her heels in on principle!

And she's good enough at fighting on top of being a "Will become a Solar Circle Sorcerer within a year tops" that she's competing against monsters on par with the ones in this tournament?

I Hate being brutally outmatched. Especially if my gut is right and she has a heavy investment in Ebon Dragon magic, which might suggest she has a way of shucking the Oath and fucking us over anyway. Especially if her job is to find Nilul, which means they're not going to send someone who would be bound for long by one.

 

[Cavalier]

Infernals don't just casually encounter the jotun of the Yozis. Given that Ayala and Fei Ling are out in Creation under long-term cover as Dynasts, and neither are Fiends, the odds of them running into Ebby and him asking "oh hey how's that finding Nilul thing going" are pretty limited. It's clear they don't have it as a primary task and aren't directly beholden to him in their mission.

Also you can get around Integrity defenses by the radical expedient of "making a good deal aligned with the wants or needs of the target." As it happens we aren't in a strong enough position, yet, to offer Ayala something she wants or to make aiding Ulyssian attractive enough to balance out the costs of losing access to Malfeas. Eventually the Yozis will make our case for us, though, and Ulyssian will be powerful enough and have enough resources and be doing something interesting enough to look like a better prospect than continued loyalty to the Reclamation. Or we might even impress her enough or earn her loyalty through deeds if we maintain contact enough.

 

[Rihaku]

Ugh, so Ayala isn't a diplomat, she's just apparently taken a good chunk of the Integrity Tree, that's even worse! Because it means she'll just stick her heels in on principle!

And she's good enough at fighting on top of being a "Will become a Solar Circle Sorcerer within a year tops" that she's competing against monsters on par with the ones in this tournament?

I Hate being outmatched.

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She has less XP than you. Like I said, being a Sorcerer doesn't require a lot of XP. It's literally 2 Charms, and spells / Workings that you buy with Solar XP.

Last Quest:

Odyssial: Bad Motherfucker.

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Oh, that mortal count is definitely too low, even for H8 Odyssial. Should probably be about two to three orders of magnitude higher.

 

[Dark Lord Bob]

So we (as in Ulyssian, paragon of social-fu that he isn't) have got to convince, using pure reasoning, someone who is smart and who has already thought over the issues herself that being on the Yozi's side is a bad decision and that betraying them is a good one. Because if we convince her that supporting Ulyssian short term (to avoid dying) is good, then she'll just do that and then go back to the Yozis with her information whence they'll kill us (as far as she knows), rendering any of our long term incentives moot.

 

[Alectai]

She has less XP than you. Like I said, being a Sorcerer doesn't require a lot of XP. It's literally 2 Charms, and spells / Workings that you buy with Solar XP.



Oh, that mortal count is definitely too low, even for H8 Odyssial. Should probably be about two to three orders of magnitude higher.

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Then how is she apparently capable of effectively competing at this level of tournament, going to be a Solar Circle Sorcerer soon, and stacked enough Integrity to completely shut Nilul down? We would be hard pressed to do all three of these at once, and she did it with even less XP?

Ughhh, the problem is that we have no absolutely sure guarantees of binding them to any oaths they might make, because breaking them is apparently well within her means. That sucks, hard. She's highly experienced, yet is convinced enough in The Cause that it took literally "The shadow of fucking death descending over you by dint of an angry Odyssial Reborn" before she would bend, and she started covering for her more wavering ally the moment they started wavering.

If anyone can figure out how we can actually bind her to not just dropping the Oath at the nearest convienence and fucking us over, then I'll stick with Negotiate, but I'm definitely on the fence at the moment.

 

[Rihaku]

Then how is she apparently capable of effectively competing at this level of tournament, going to be a Solar Circle Sorcerer soon, and stacked enough Integrity to completely shut Nilul down? We would be hard pressed to do all three of these at once, and she did it with even less XP?

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Celestial Circle Sorcery: 2 Charms
Integrity: 4 Charms

That leaves 25 to 34 Charms for the rest of her Abilities, plus Solar XP buys (up to ~20 Charm equivalents in Spells, Evocations, and Abiities / Attributes). You have 45 Charms after you buy Po17C (not counting Solar XP); just look at all the shit Ulyssian can do. There're tons of one-liners on his sheet which basically invalidate entire areas of competition against him.

All Solars at this Essence level will be about this powerful, it's literally lockstep due to the 3E experience system. Actually, Ulyssian is much more powerful than a Solar of his XP total should be because he has absolutely disgusting stats.

Ughhh, the problem is that we have no absolutely sure guarantees of binding them to any oaths they might make, because breaking them is apparently well within her means. That sucks, hard.

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Only Fiends can do that.

So we (as in Ulyssian, paragon of social-fu that he isn't) have got to convince, using pure reasoning, someone who is smart and who has already thought over the issues herself that being on the Yozi's side is a bad decision and that betraying them is a good one. Because if we convince her that supporting Ulyssian short term (to avoid dying) is good, then she'll just do that and then go back to the Yozis with her information whence they'll kill us (as far as she knows), rendering any of our long term incentives moot.

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That's why you're having her swear an oath!

 

[Alectai]

Only Fiends can do that.

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So, one of the ten involved who she could certainly borrow for a day or two and a few motes on their part, based on "Hey, I'll do you a quick favor if you do me a quick favor"?

 

[Cavalier]

So we (as in Ulyssian, paragon of social-fu that he isn't) have got to convince, using pure reasoning, someone who is smart and who has already thought over the issues herself that being on the Yozi's side is a bad decision and that betraying them is a good one. Because if we convince her that supporting Ulyssian short term (to avoid dying) is good, then she'll just do that and then go back to the Yozis with her information.

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"Letting Adorjan loose in Creation is a bad idea" is an academic understanding that Ayala can assuage with her intent to perform soul-surgery and Charm alterations on them. "Malfeas going apeshit in paranoid rage after the first Infernal goes rogue" is something quite more personal. The splatbook makes it clear the Yozis will eventually alienate all the Green Sun Princes, because inhuman alien titans with explosive tempers, murder-enlightenment, morbid obsessions with doom, no respect for free will, etc and etc cannot relate terribly well to human beings. We just need to be around to exploit the inevitable moment of disillusionment.

In the meantime they won't turn Nilul in if they swear because Ulyssian is useful to them, personally. That's the point of negotiations. To establish a back-and-forth so that Ayala and Fei Ling do not want to expose them and will passively avoid doing so. And since neither are directly beholden to the Ebon Dragon all they have to do is not seek out the Ebon Dragon's jotun. In a year or so when Ulyssian has an army and a state and is E5 or greater and has artifacts and more allies and more resources and more going on in long-term plans to change the face of Creation, we can try again. Having Ulyssian remaining as a fall-back position if the gig in Malfeas goes south will be even more attractive and thus they will have even less incentive to turn against him. And when they do go rogue they'll turn to him.

This is a long-term process, but it'll be a lot easier once we are playing with a stronger hand in general.

 

[Dark Lord Bob]

That's why you're having her swear an oath!

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An oath doesn't change her reasoning though, it just adds a curse as an incentive.

 

[Rihaku]

So, one of the ten involved who she could certainly borrow for a day or two and a few motes on their part, based on "Hey, I'll do you a quick favor if you do me a quick favor"?

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It only works on themselves, otherwise Nilul could invalidate oaths you swear, which would be hilariously broken.

"Letting Adorjan loose in Creation is a bad idea" is an academic understanding that Ayala can assuage with her intent to perform soul-surgery and Charm alterations on them.

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To be fair, that assumes that Ayala has normal-ish levels of empathy and stuff, which, as "Odyssial's sister," she may not. If she is Odyssial's sister, she will likely have a personality that quite resembles Odyssial's.

Which, really, may be the strongest argument of all for killing them. Do you want Sorcerous!Odyssial possibly working against you?

 

[Alectai]

Okay, that makes me a bit less paranoid of the ease of breaking it. Which means she would only violate the oath if she was willing to tank the consequences. Which are pretty significant.

 

[Vaalintine]

Oh goddamnit, she's using the Ebon Dragon's memory charms. She has to be, as Nio reincarnating (at least like this) is impossible.

 

[arsdraconis]

Odyssial's persona is something that is shaped throughout centuries of living as a solar exalt

Nio is 0/2 on both centuries of life and solar exaltation

 

[Rihaku]

Yeah, eclipse oaths are pretty brutal. At least until one becomes more powerful than the Unconquered Sun.

I'm aiming for an afternoon posting tomorrow, I'm EST. Is that a good time for everyone? The next decision point will be extremely significant, assuming you survive this one, so I want people to get their say.

 

[Cavalier]

To be fair, that assumes that Ayala has normal-ish levels of empathy and stuff, which, as "Odyssial's sister," she may not. If she is Odyssial's sister, she will likely have a personality that quite resembles Odyssial's.

Which, really, may be the strongest argument of all for killing them. Do you want Sorcerous!Odyssial possibly working against you?

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If she really is Odyssial's sister, isn't that the strongest argument for keeping her alive and putting in extraordinary effort to turn her? And anyone if she is like Odyssial in personality she will outgrow the Yozis in due time, accelerated by the Yozis being the Yozis rather than benignly(?) neglectful like Conky.

 

[Rihaku]

Oh goddamnit, she's using the Ebon Dragon's memory charms. She has to be, as Nio reincarnating (at least like this) is impossible.

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In 3E, Infernals in general do not get access to Primordial Charms. They have their own, Hell-aspected Charms, like Abyssals do with the dead. That said, there's nothing stopping her from having something like Memory-Reweaving Discipline, sure, though she'd have to be either Supernal in the pertinent Ability (extremely unlikely given that she's a Defiler) or E4 and heavily invested in social attack.

Odyssial's persona is something that is shaped throughout centuries of living as a solar exalt

Nii is 0/2 on both centuries of life and solar exaltation

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You saw what his base personality was like at the beginning of this quest. He's fucking crazy.

If she really is Odyssial's sister, isn't that the strongest argument for keeping her alive and putting in extraordinary effort to turn her? And anyone if she is like Odyssial in personality she will outgrow the Yozis in due time, accelerated by the Yozis being the Yozis rather than benignly(?) neglectful like Conky.

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Depends on whether you guys value Nio, I suppose. By default Odyssial values Nio very highly, but apparently the voter base is divided!

 

[Dark Lord Bob]

If she really is Odyssial's sister, isn't that the strongest argument for keeping her alive and putting in extraordinary effort to turn her?

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No...

I mean aesthetically I don't want that and practically speaking having someone who could seriously challenge us over disagreements probably isn't the best.

 

[Dark Lord Bob]

E4 and heavily invested in social attack.

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We know that she could reach E5 within ~6 months so I've been assuming she was E4.

 

[Guile]

We need to get one of those Elder DBs that could have talked us into getting krunk on Ayala, stat!

Sorcery takes two Charms, and the relevant Integrity Charms are like 4-6 at most. She has between 31 and 40+ Charms, not counting spells. In 3E there's no social parrying, the only defense is Integrity. Also, Nilul didn't really target Ayala much, Ayala sort of talked over her. Most high Essence Exalts are incredibly good at tons at shit. Look at Uly. Perfect disguise is two charms. Perfect instinct for shadiness is one charm. Perfect cheating at gambling is two charms.

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I think we assumed that being well on her way to Adamant Sorcery would eat up all her XP.

Of course, in retrospect, that would be like Uly not being able to afford charms because he focused pretty heavily on Evocations.