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[Exalted, ?] Most High

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inawarminister said:
Nope, I mean his utilisation of every assets that he have, every potential allies that he can get, stuffs. He became the Lord Strategos after all.

If we keep Nilul from being alienated by our actions, then we'll have an ally that is specced to social and intrigue in a different way from the Sidereals (Pearl/Ivory) and can give us access to Malfeas AND smack the Reclamation, ANOTHER Threat to Creation. Not to it's existence, thankfully, but 100 % unacceptable to Odyssial-that-was, if I analysed his character properly.

That's my argument. I don't like hedonism at all. But we need to stay friendly with Nilul.
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How on earth is staying behind to look after a friend of hers alienating Nilul?
 
inawarminister said:
That's my argument. I don't like hedonism at all. But we need to stay friendly with Nilul.
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Hmm... so your fear is that we will alienate Nilul. I don't think that's the case; Nilul is aware of Ulyssian's tendencies and understanding of them, just as he is tolerant of her ingenue routine. It's an established dynamic, and she would definitely understand if we prioritized training. It is, after all, what we have done every time before. Moon is also a friend, so she would want her to be happy, ridiculous fears about her evil nature aside.
 
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Rihaku said:
To be fair, you have enough XP for E3 already, you just need training time. But yes, you should be on the lookout for more XP, be it in the form of fanworks or otherwise.
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I know, I'm just using it as an example to illustrate that the XP being offered is very much non-trivial, especially in our needy state.
 
Hmm. I can't argue for provilities in good faith now.
I guess I'll just meditate on this.
The one-itis subcurrent annoys me so much though, shame. We can handle more allies, friends, things. Don't lock yourself to Moon, no matter how moé she is!
Heh.
 
Yeah, I'm trying to imagine Ulyssian passing up training and his loyal friend, for partying and a family that previously wouldn't have crossed the street to piss on him if he was burning to death.

I'm having a difficult time doing so.
 
Orm Embar said:
... she's predisposed to evil due to her blood? That's nonsensical.

Nilul is not going to betray us without good reason. Hewing to our established traits and looking after a friend of hers doesn't constitute a good reason.
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She is the daughter of the embodiment of betrayal. That transcends genetics, the Yozi aren't flesh and blood. She also has contact with a turned Scarlet Empress for a mother (Rihaku mentions that she wants to best her, or would use Ambition to do so, I believe), she has experience with betrayal. If it would serve her purposes, I have no doubt she would betray us. We're not exactly close friends.

I want her to betray us. I want things to begin to go poorly, so we have impetus to get out there and actually do things. Right now we are taking the slow and safe option every time, our biggest risk was... staying where we started, under the shadow of the most powerful terrestrial exalt still around.
 
Savonarola said:
Yeah, I'm trying to imagine Ulyssian passing up training and his loyal friend, for partying and a family that previously wouldn't have crossed the street to piss on him if he was burning to death.

I'm having a difficult time doing so.
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I don't know how much headway you'll get by strawmanning, though. There is a practical use to his family, just as there is a practical use to his training, even if he doesn't like them as much. And Hero, and Saery, and Nilul, and the others, are all worried about him, and want to see him, and discuss the matter of his ascension / apparent double-agent-ness. They are a distraction, yes, but a well-meaning one.
 
SirLagginton said:
Publicly snubbed them perhaps, but outright betrayal is a much more extreme claim. All we have to do is inform them is that Zao wanted to talk to us about our "mistake" in the Coliseum. As long as our alibi is plausible and we appear to be sufficiently conciliatory then we should have no problems getting back into our family's good graces.
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Except that by going full training, and ignoring them by not going to that sweet party then we're basically giving no effort at all to try and reconcile with them after such a massive snub, so they wouldn't be convinced of our sincerity once we meet up and apologize to them should they visit the academy again some time later, or after we're out of the place
 
Xsi said:
She is the daughter of the embodiment of betrayal. That transcends genetics, the Yozi aren't flesh and blood. She also has contact with a turned Scarlet Empress for a mother (Rihaku mentions that she wants to best her, or would use Ambition to do so, I believe), she has experience with betrayal. If it would serve her purposes, I have no doubt she would betray us. We're not exactly close friends.
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We formed the Incompetents Society together and cut her in on our class project. She's helped us out before. We know her secret. I'd argue that's pretty close. We have Word of Rihaku that blood isn't everything on the last page. Can the Solars not become monsters? Are the Sidereals incapable of direct action? It is within all beings with free will to transcend their baser natures. Nilul is trusted by Zao, and has fled Malfeas. I would argue she has already done so.
Xsi said:
I want her to betray us. I want things to begin to go poorly, so we have impetus to get out there and actually do things. Right now we are taking the slow and safe option every time, our biggest risk was... staying where we started, under the shadow of the most powerful terrestrial exalt still around.
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If you want her to betray us, why are you picking the option that goes along with what she wants, placating her?

In any case, I don't understand a desire for Ulyssian to fail. You want to go out there and do things? Pick the option that gives us the power to do so, so when our time rolls around, we can kick down the starting gate and come out sprinting, Ambition in hand.
 
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Shura12305 said:
Except that by going full training, and ignoring them by not going to that sweet party then we're basically giving no effort at all to try and reconcile with them after such a massive snub, so they wouldn't be convinced of our sincerity once we meet up and apologize to them should they visit the academy again some time later, or after we're out of the place
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Why would they know that we were training? All we have to do is establish a decent alibi such as talking to Zao (which is the very reason I stated in the post you quoted) and then they would have no grounds to think of this as a snub given that we talking to our mentor/some other good reason. Lack of evidence of any malice towards them and greed for the power our newly announced position represents will do the rest.
 
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So, there's something that I think the Party Hard faction is forgetting, or possibly minimizing. If Ulyssian goes off to be a Dynast, shenanigans will result, and be entertaining. However! At the same time you know who's going to be there when Moon wakes up if it's not Uly? ZAO! Her first impression of everything that has happened will be shaped and colored by Captain Cynical Planet.

This is the man who is unwilling to tell her the truth, and generally does not wish her to have any exposure to Ulyssian. He's willing to allow it given the concessions we made to his plans, but he would vastly prefer we had nothing to do with her. He won't necessarily do anything to directly alienate Ulyssian in this instance, but his actions will be colored AS THEY HAVE BEEN SO FAR, by his concern and wishes for his daughter.

This is of course leaving aside the whole 'not optimal/lost opportunity value as the exaltation settles' thing that goes on. Plus, and I can't believe I'm saying this, we could really use that XP folks.

Finally, Nilul herself said herself that Moon would probably wait at Uly's bedside. Can Uly do less... while still maintaining horrendous degrees of personal development as is his wont?
 
Orm Embar said:
If you want her to betray us, why are you picking the option that goes along with what she wants, placating her?

In any case, I don't understand a desire for Ulyssian to fail. You want to go out there and do things? Pick the option that gives us the power to do so, so when our time rolls around, we can kick down the starting gate and come out sprinting, Ambition in hand.
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Direct contact and showing her we have something is the most efficient route to betrayal.

I don't want him to fail, I want him to act. The possibility of failing is of course an undesirable outcome, but it would show that we at least attempted something. We're being incredibly unassertive in a world that is in a constant state of decline. We're sitting back, building up, being passive and calling it training while our foes are not. The longer we wait, even with Solar hacks on our side, the rougher the opposition will be.
 
Shura12305 said:
Except that by going full training, and ignoring them by not going to that sweet party then we're basically giving no effort at all to try and reconcile with them after such a massive snub, so they wouldn't be convinced of our sincerity once we meet up and apologize to them should they visit the academy again some time later, or after we're out of the place
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Mmm.

CharlBaal said:
Not even Moon or Ivory or even Nilul with her new exotic charms?
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Pearl, she can make an exception for. Those other two would have to train!

Xsi said:
She is the daughter of the embodiment of betrayal. That transcends genetics, the Yozi aren't flesh and blood. She also has contact with a turned Scarlet Empress for a mother (Rihaku mentions that she wants to best her, or would use Ambition to do so, I believe), she has experience with betrayal. If it would serve her purposes, I have no doubt she would betray us. We're not exactly close friends.

I want her to betray us. I want things to begin to go poorly, so we have impetus to get out there and actually do things. Right now we are taking the slow and safe option every time, our biggest risk was... staying where we started, under the shadow of the most powerful terrestrial exalt still around.
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You're pretty close friends, though not as close as Hero, or especially Moon. Maybe Saery-level, a bit higher than that.

Really? There hasn't been much risk content in Ulyssian's choices yet, but you did choose Persuade, which was pretty risky.
 
Rihaku said:
Really? There hasn't been much risk content in Ulyssian's choices yet, but you did choose Persuade, which was pretty risky.
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There was no real risk there. He just publicly declared us his heir and whisked us away.

We are his plan and he's not really able to discard us yet, not when his conviction is what it is.
 
Xsi said:
There was no real risk there. He just publicly declared us his heir and whisked us away.
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Persuade, the option given when Zao wanted you to not tell Moon the truth. Somehow was far more certain, as was He's Right. Persuade had far larger downsides, had it failed.

Also, from your guys' perspective, Disguise was risky. You had no way of knowing that Zao would rescue you, or that I would give you the option to turn Ivory.

Xsi said:
Direct contact and showing her we have something is the most efficient route to betrayal.

I don't want him to fail, I want him to act. The possibility of failing is of course an undesirable outcome, but it would show that we at least attempted something. We're being incredibly unassertive in a world that is in a constant state of decline. We're sitting back, building up, being passive and calling it training while our foes are not. The longer we wait, even with Solar hacks on our side, the rougher the opposition will be.
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No, you actually are training. Exalts need training time, that's part of how they work. If training did not produce useful, marginal-time-competitive results for Exalts, Zao would know and tell you not to train.
 
SirLagginton said:
Why would they know that we were training? All we have to do is establish a decent alibi such as talking to Zao (which is the very reason I stated in the post you quoted) and then they would have no grounds to think of this as a snub given that we talking to our mentor/some other good reason. Lack of evidence and greed for the power our newly announced position represents will do the rest.
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This party's more just a day long, we couldn't have been talking to Zao for that long, and what could be more important than interacting with one's family, and other fellow Dynasts?
 
Xsi said:
I don't want him to fail, I want him to act. The possibility of failing is of course an undesirable outcome, but it would show that we at least attempted something. We're being incredibly unassertive in a world that is in a constant state of decline. We're sitting back, building up, being passive and calling it training while our foes are not. The longer we wait, even with Solar hacks on our side, the rougher the opposition will be.
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We chose persuade and disguise, both of which were chancy and risky. The latter was immensely so, in fact.

And yes, we chose to train. You may call it passivity, but I consider it pragmatic preparation and reasoned action. Flying in the face of that decision and going in the opposite direction isn't productive, it just pulls Ulyssian in a different way, diminishing his focus and reducing the benefits of the options we did choose.
 
Rihaku said:
No, you actually are training. Exalts need training time, that's part of how they work. If training did not produce useful, marginal-time-competitive results for Exalts, Zao would know and tell you not to train.
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I understand that training produces measurable effects on our stat sheet. It doesn't produce quantifiable effects on the world though, just our ability to impact it in the future. We are building up, not acting.
 
Shura12305 said:
This party's more just a day long, we couldn't have been talking to Zao for that long, and what could be more important than interacting with one's family, and other fellow Dynasts?
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Our Exaltation hasn't yet fully stabilized. We have the opportunity to draw on our memories and powers, a one-time chance to gain experience and efficiently spend it, to take the first step in actually living up to Odyssial's hype.

Also, supporting a friend who has supported us immensely.
 
Shura12305 said:
This party's more just a day long, we couldn't have been talking to Zao for that long, and what could be more important than interacting with one's family, and other fellow Dynasts?
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Contacting people not here, talking about the future, securing our position against any interlopers or people who want to assassinate us, etc.

Zao will confirm whatever bullshit we make up too, because it's in his best interests for Ulyssian to keep a relationship with his family. Ultimately however, as stated previously, it's not the reason why we were away that matters, but the fact that we are conciliatory and willing to use our new position to support our family's position. Greed is universal, even amongst the Princes of the Earth. Whatever bullshit we come up with is strictly secondary to that.
 
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