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Even Further Beyond [Complete]

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If we're going to attack the Heroine directly, I think we should focus our Extra Diligent efforts on the offensive aspects of the Extrusion and pick up Azure Flare. We have resistance to Fated Love and an amplified Vengeance, which would likely reduce the costs of Acting as Truth since our actions would be in accordance with our nature. Furthermore, we can recoup the costs of the lost Essence by True Amplification, the Wish and the Extrusion's transfer effects, not to mention the effects of fulfilling our oath to Baenlixnaire.

Assuming Liefang doesn't have intel on her, I'd like to send Xiaoling and Suizhen our to Vane beforehand to gather information on her. We know that the former's cattiness could flush out the Heroine and the knowledge gained would help us find her with Cerebration in the event that she escapes.

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If we assault the Heavens, we'll need a minimum of 15~ Stages of power, along with relevant esoteric offense. I think the Extrusion should suffice for the latter. Since they don't require the same degree of exotic vectors to eliminate, I'd rather grab True Incarnation. Along with the 0.25 Stage bonus, we'd gain additional Truespells and the ability to create a scaling Magnum Opus.

With additional Truespells, we could hedge our bets in dealing with the Fates, let us focus on the power draining aspects of our Death mastery or gain additional Cultivation multipliers. The first would minimise the risks we'd face in our invasion while the second and third may allow us to boost our powerlevel even further before the confrontation with Zang Kong.

The potential benefits of a Magnum Opus are obviously hard to predict but would be enormous. If killing the Fates extinguishes Artifice, an enhancement to our Forge could allow us to preserve those capabilities and supercharge our item crafting besides. Something like the Forge of the Ancients would lend us immense flexibility and be worth giving up a Stage in my opinion, especially since it would strengthen our foundation in preparation for Immortal Awakening. Alternatively, something to enhance our Diagrams or Extrusion would have similar benefits but without the uncertainties or Binary Magic.
 
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I mean, Azure Flare allows us to ignore effects of Fate while Acting as Truth, which should have obvious benefits while fighting Fates, and Vengeful ensures that we will act according to our principles when fighting them.
 
The problem, of course, is if the Divine Realms have mental effects that count as natural which change our nature enough that it's no longer in our nature to fight them, even for a bit, in which case we shrivel up and die. I would really prefer Incarnation before trying to Flare.
 
UDwarf said:
Note that Opuses would be significantly stronger than the Bracers were now that we have a lot more effective essence, and would also likely be scaled up some for eating two effective Stages rather than one (Stageless). But still, unless an Opus gave a significant progression boost it probably wouldn't be worth it, no.
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The way stage boosts work already takes that into account. A stronger version of the bracers artifact which gives a +1 stage base boost and an additional +0.5 stages if it is an Opus would give a far greater increase from becoming an Opus than the other bracers did, since going from +1 to +1.5 is a far greater increase than going from +0.5 to +1 (see Rihaku's comment about how going from +0.25 to +0.5 when going FB on a cultivation stage is a far greater increase than the +0->+0.25 you get when spending one BP to go Beyond).

Regarding being scaled up like that, the argument above also applies and it likely wouldn't be scaled up much anyway. The last stage of power does after all have far more essence than the one before it.
 
@Rihaku does Nameless know whether, in theory, it's possible to craft artifacts that boost diagrams of Truth, in a similar way to those that boost lesser diagrams?
 
UBR said:
The way stage boosts work already takes that into account. A stronger version of the bracers artifact which gives a +1 stage base boost and an additional +0.5 stages if it is an Opus would give a far greater increase from becoming an Opus than the other bracers did, since going from +1 to +1.5 is a far greater increase than going from +0.5 to +1 (see Rihaku's comment about how going from +0.25 to +0.5 when going FB on a cultivation stage is a far greater increase than the +0->+0.25 you get when spending one BP to go Beyond).

Regarding being scaled up like that, the argument above also applies and it likely wouldn't be scaled up much anyway. The last stage of power does after all have far more essence than the one before it.
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I'm not entirely sure stage boosts don't scale? But either way, utility effects definitely do, and Vault Artifacts have jumped from 4 design points to 10, so a more-than-doubling from utility seems reasonably expected. That's enough to make it worthwhile, for some things, like if we can get a good time multiplier which also lets us face enemies to drain.

As for the doubled investment, this should(?) produce significantly more — Stageless stages are twice as strong, so they should be worth twice as much, and as far as we know each separate stage-let takes half the essence. On the one hand, I don't know how true that is, but on the other, if you really do think the problem is that the last stage is the vast majority of your power than a Stageless stage is worth ~10 times (one full Stage-factor) as much, and thus should be quite a bit stronger. But this is all guesses at this point.
 
UDwarf said:
The problem, of course, is if the Divine Realms have mental effects that count as natural which change our nature enough that it's no longer in our nature to fight them, even for a bit, in which case we shrivel up and die. I would really prefer Incarnation before trying to Flare.
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Or we could get stuck in natural timeloop, in which case we get to sit there forever.
 
Our current Magnum Opus comparison is the Ring of Truth, a Stage 5 (Reality Forming) Magnum Opus. A non-Magnum Opus of Reality Forming strength raised our Ego Barrier from 1BP to 3 BP with some boosts. (+0.25 Stage all purposes, +0.25/0.50/0.75 Combat, PK).
 
Wolfy said:
Or we could get stuck in natural timeloop, in which case we get to sit there forever.
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Well, we know Fate has access to natural-like mind control, and if any of that it successfully used on us during Flare we just lose there and then. And we'll be in the Divine Realms, which is likely somewhat more amenable to their direction than the normal world. Invading them is going to be hard enough, I'd rather not give them a free way to just insta-kill us regardless of our power — I'd much prefer to protect ourselves from the thing we have pretty solid reason to believe they can pull off of they try rather than amplifying that vulnerability to lethal levels.
 
Shard said:
Our current Magnum Opus comparison is the Ring of Truth, a Stage 5 (Reality Forming) Magnum Opus. A non-Magnum Opus of Reality Forming strength raised our Ego Barrier from 1BP to 3 BP with some boosts. (+0.25 Stage all purposes, +0.25/0.50/0.75 Combat, PK).
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Rings are special for artifacts and that artifact got a great boost from our Mentor sacrificing everything of himself, so that isn't a good comparison (unless we plan to permanently kill ourselves to make an artifact...). It is far more appropriate to look at the bracers.

UDwarf said:
I'm not entirely sure stage boosts don't scale? But either way, utility effects definitely do, and Vault Artifacts have jumped from 4 design points to 10, so a more-than-doubling from utility seems reasonably expected. That's enough to make it worthwhile, for some things, like if we can get a good time multiplier which also lets us face enemies to drain.
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The vault was a special case in that it was really easy for artifacts to increase the number of points. Even the shitty artifact we could have gotten early on as a gift would have given us a few points.
 
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UBR said:
Rings are special for artifacts and that artifact got a great boost from our Mentor sacrificing everything of himself, so that isn't a good comparison (unless we plan to permanently kill ourselves to make an artifact...). It is far more appropriate to look at the bracers.
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Our Mentor sacrificing everything of himself is what made it a Magnum Opus to begin with. The other comparison was a phylactery that gave regenaration and blood generation of absurd degree.
 
UBR said:
Rings are special for artifacts and that artifact got a great boost from our Mentor sacrificing everything of himself, so that isn't a good comparison (unless we plan to permanently kill ourselves to make an artifact...). It is far more appropriate to look at the bracers.
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The whole point is that these are as strong as Opuses, which is exactly what that was. This should definitely be comparable to the one Opus we've actually made.
UBR said:
The vault was a special case in that it was really easy for artifacts to increase the number of points. Even the shitty artifact we could have gotten early on as a gift would have given us a few points.
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I mean, the Vault is a good example of something which Artifacts affect in a reasonably continuous and scaling manner, but I don't see any reason why a similar pattern wouldn't hold for other utility Artifacts, unless I'm missing something.
 
MO that would allow us to have Jotunheim alongside Extrusion would be godly tho.

Doombeasts and Essence farming combo would be unreal.
 
Wolfy said:
MO that would allow us to have Jotunheim alongside Extrusion would be godly tho.

Doombeasts and Essence farming are unreal.
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Yup. That's pretty much a win condition. We would probably want to specialize a bit to optimize for our method of eating Essence, but this is exactly the thing I mentioned earlier in the thread could lead to us hitting exponentially growing Stages — not exponential power, exponentially exponential power. In other words, if you wanted to get as many Stages as the Accursed has levels, this is the way to do it.
 
Magnus opus allows us another power up and extra time before heavenly tribulation. I would prefer to go IA while having a Magnus opus tier weapon or armour and having mastered the extrusion further.

As We have already seen from the elves, the artifacts may be specialized but still extremely powerful.
 
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DkArthas said:
Magnus opus allows us another power up and extra time before heavenly tribulation. I would prefer to go IA while having a Magnus opus tier weapon and having mastered the extrusion further.

As We have already seen from the elves, the artifacts are specialized but still extremely powerful.
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You always have option of creating number of standard Artifacts instead, however.
 
Is 2 stage of power worth 1.5 stage of Opus?

Consider the time involve I don't think that worth it,Grant Opus is not to underestimate but if don't know their esoteric effect then I don't think the thread will follow.


I still support True Incarnation thought ,Immune to Fated love and 0.25+0.25 = 0.5 stage of power and more spell slot.

With immune to Fated Love then I confidence to face the heroine and get rid of her for a time.

Even if she come back with more 4 stage of power by then we will grow pass her brothers power level.

Basically I bet on more true spell slot for wreck the heaven thought.

Technically if we want to flee form Kong Zang then we have open the way that don't need us to use wish to get out of this rock.:)

I am interested in wreck the heaven that good for thematic of the quest thought.

@Rihaku Can heaven effect by our Maya? If the fate effect by our 2000% Slaanesh realm then we can pretty much already won.:p
 
They are still nothing compared to a Magnus opus like The Ring of Truth or even The bracers that when we were far below our current level basically would have provided us Heavy counter.

A Magnus opus armour can provide us protection from a number of estoric vectors.
 
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Wouldn't killing the Fates be Game Over? We'd be stronger than unascended Kong Zang by definition (to say nothing of the Essence/Celestial Orb/BP bounty) and the Heroine will lose her main support pillar, making her death all but certain. As for what would be best for dealing with them, I suppose Rihaku's explanation that we won't need stuff like True Love immunity as much means that they're more limited in how they exercise their power during a direct confrontation, which is in line with what we've been told about the Fates previously.

Given all this, I'm in favor of taking Azure Flare and showing them what for. As Baenlixnaire told us, they're immortal and don't react as well to sudden changes, preferring to play the long game, so it's best to avoid giving them any opportunities for a comeback and just shoot them.
 
I just reread the True incarnation ,We immune to all form of mind effect include everything that count as natural.

This guy offer us with reincarnation choice that mean his hax is time control.

We have true incarnation to protect us and more true spell should put them down for good.

How about we fill another true spell with form of balance? 40% increase on top of amplification?
 
Is there a way for us to grow our Extrusion's power? It is a universe now, but that's 'merely' Stage I Titan. Can we develop an agglomeration of death-related Worlds like decay, rot, ruin to improve it's power level? Or does it not need to improve to be equal / superior to EFB Extrusion of a higher Stage Titan?

Speaking about Stages, there is something incredibly suspicious about Kong's progress. With all our multipliers, it will take us 10,000 months or more to do Stage 9. That's slightly less than a thousand years.

A Stage IV Titan (he is at peak this Stage) is equivalent of Stage 10.9 in normal terms, and should take him much longer than four thousand years given the general trend of Stage time increases.

How did he manage toget there at all? We got to 7.9 due to Thriesiel's sacrifice, but Kong took more than 230 years to breach Titanic levels.

How is he managing to grow to his level, even with the Overgrowth's materials? His Emanation might be unbelievably bullshit, I suppose. But I doubt it can equal all our multipliers.
 
I just reread that with 10BP point even further beyond amplification +2 stage on body strength and reduce 2 stage of physical attack.

We maybe can walk to Kong and directly kill him if we have 10BP and true spell amplification thought.
 
I think we can kill Kong directly once we enter Immortal Awakening anyway, if we find his Chrysalis and have Necromancer mastery (self-augmentation). I would like to enter Immortal Awakening before the quest ends, so I will just try my utmost to gun for that Stage and reach it and then assault Heaven.



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