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Even Further Beyond [Complete]
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- Australia
Apologies for the extra post, just had a thought.
I find it incredibly ironic that The Fates are restrained in using their powers by how credible an action is. One can be found into the beyond and come back stronger than ever, or stumble upon great power many times in a single lifetime. Doing these actions that are unbelievable is allowed a few times, but as the audience realises the improbability it gets more and more expensive for them to do so.
Then we get the option to Act as Truth. Azure Flare. This is incredibly powerful, and specifically allows us to ignore the dictates of the Fates, even so far as to decree "what happened did not happen, that person is alive." That "this man is not a beggar, he is a king" However, the less inline with our character and the Truth this act is, the more it drains us.
Truth works under the same principles as the powers of the Fates. It has the same powers, and the same costs. I strongly suspect that they each literally have their own Truth equivilent, specific to their season, each just as profound and powerful, each just as constrained outside their niche. Perhaps Spring has Life. Or Growth. Or perhaps they are most raw and abstract again, Entropy and Creation for winter and spring. But much like Truth, the further they act out out character, the more draining.
This is more abstract again, but potentially their turn as the hero/heroine of the age is literally how they build their credibility stocks, their personal essence, their cultivation equivilent. It's a possible explanation for why Winter created a super age of great length - if in the future she now has "Might" in the list of her powers and it has been shown to be a power greater than all others, that stood for longer than any other age - well, using that to do a lot of powerful things seems like a credible explanation for an awful lot. "A Titan did it" with multiple previous examples of what a Titan can do covers almost anything. However, an age of cultivation that was strangled in its infancy on the other hand has much less credibility for performing incredible acts in future ages.
This could also help explain why they need a dark lord. It's not in the interest of fairness. The bigger the threat you put down (Perceived or real) the more powerful you obviously are, and thus the more credibility you have with that power in the future. Taking down the dark lord that singlehandedly annihilated the elves that had survived multiple ages for example would give that power much more credibility than taking down the Dark lord that spent the wealth of his people on parties. Both are evils to be overthrown, but with very different oomph for showcasing power.
Finally, I feel like creating artifacts (more specifically how elves do it) is a good hint to how this all hangs together. Much like the powers of the Fates and the power of Truth we sacrifice energy to create the improbable. The more powerful the more we sacrifice, the more unique the more effective and of course, you can give more of yourself up till the final drop, an act that creates objects of vastly more worth. Elves are like baby-fates in theme, including the fact that to remain at full power, they have to be totally bound to a particular way of acting, and I'm guessing the more in theme the artifact they create with their essence, the more powerful. After all, eating the magnum opus of the elf that created the flower that allowed cultivation itself gave a truely ludicrous amount of power to cultivation.
I find it incredibly ironic that The Fates are restrained in using their powers by how credible an action is. One can be found into the beyond and come back stronger than ever, or stumble upon great power many times in a single lifetime. Doing these actions that are unbelievable is allowed a few times, but as the audience realises the improbability it gets more and more expensive for them to do so.
Then we get the option to Act as Truth. Azure Flare. This is incredibly powerful, and specifically allows us to ignore the dictates of the Fates, even so far as to decree "what happened did not happen, that person is alive." That "this man is not a beggar, he is a king" However, the less inline with our character and the Truth this act is, the more it drains us.
Truth works under the same principles as the powers of the Fates. It has the same powers, and the same costs. I strongly suspect that they each literally have their own Truth equivilent, specific to their season, each just as profound and powerful, each just as constrained outside their niche. Perhaps Spring has Life. Or Growth. Or perhaps they are most raw and abstract again, Entropy and Creation for winter and spring. But much like Truth, the further they act out out character, the more draining.
This is more abstract again, but potentially their turn as the hero/heroine of the age is literally how they build their credibility stocks, their personal essence, their cultivation equivilent. It's a possible explanation for why Winter created a super age of great length - if in the future she now has "Might" in the list of her powers and it has been shown to be a power greater than all others, that stood for longer than any other age - well, using that to do a lot of powerful things seems like a credible explanation for an awful lot. "A Titan did it" with multiple previous examples of what a Titan can do covers almost anything. However, an age of cultivation that was strangled in its infancy on the other hand has much less credibility for performing incredible acts in future ages.
This could also help explain why they need a dark lord. It's not in the interest of fairness. The bigger the threat you put down (Perceived or real) the more powerful you obviously are, and thus the more credibility you have with that power in the future. Taking down the dark lord that singlehandedly annihilated the elves that had survived multiple ages for example would give that power much more credibility than taking down the Dark lord that spent the wealth of his people on parties. Both are evils to be overthrown, but with very different oomph for showcasing power.
Finally, I feel like creating artifacts (more specifically how elves do it) is a good hint to how this all hangs together. Much like the powers of the Fates and the power of Truth we sacrifice energy to create the improbable. The more powerful the more we sacrifice, the more unique the more effective and of course, you can give more of yourself up till the final drop, an act that creates objects of vastly more worth. Elves are like baby-fates in theme, including the fact that to remain at full power, they have to be totally bound to a particular way of acting, and I'm guessing the more in theme the artifact they create with their essence, the more powerful. After all, eating the magnum opus of the elf that created the flower that allowed cultivation itself gave a truely ludicrous amount of power to cultivation.
That might be true? But remember, Fated mind manipulation looks like normal mind manipulation, so any instinctual reactions like that would need to be checked before I would want to use them. Hopefully they would come with big bold blue letters, because if not I would be a bit worried we might just be listening to the Fates telling us something which would get us killed.
On the other hand, I may be worrying too much here, I just feel like something which we know can kill us if we don't precisely follow the right rules seems like an incredibly dangerous thing to be using if we don't know we'll know exactly what those rules are.
The guesses aren't bad, but the point of my objection was that you're disregarding the difference in power between us and the Fates. We're specifically only planning to invade when our strength exceeds their projected power levels - because apparently taking Amplification is going to bridge us over that hurdle and let us exceed even Zang Kong, who needs to marinate in his Ascension Cocoon for a while to get that far.
Acting as Truth is costly, yes, but it depends on what exactly we're trying to do with it. We aren't giving our all to desperately kill a superior enemy or overcoming a thousand improbably esoteric defenses the Heroine boasts. We're attacking the Fates directly, in a situation where they'll be having the most trouble exercising their power, with strength that exceeds theirs. We just need the Truth Sigil to make it stick. We'll probably still lose an indeterminate amount of essence during the fight, because nobody told us killing gods is easy, but we have several ways of making up for that loss, like draining their own energy or visiting the Overgrowth for a snack.
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You know if we'd gotten that Essence diagram, we probably wouldn't have to worry about the opportunity cost to the Truth sign at all. It runs on essence like Baen had, with Cultivation serving as an effective substitute.
I think we might be starting to lose track of just how many power combos we used to get here. That's... a really good problem to have.
I think we might be starting to lose track of just how many power combos we used to get here. That's... a really good problem to have.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
So, a bit more evidence to support Accursed = Odyssial
From Most High.
I think the Accursed might have been Ulyssian's vigilante name, and that's the reference there? I'll have check.
E:
It was.
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So Odyssial just realize that when he made his Lathe of Heaven in effect that his creation is one among many in multiverse?
I think he is curse on the same level of great curse at Greatness 10.
Fate can dictate outcome but they are not strongest or cleverest of the god.
So I guess fight with them is pretty clever plan and avoid their trapping of us that force us to fight heroine.
No one forbid us to fight them instead.
Our lose to the heroine maybe Fated that write on the bone of earth but no one said that we can not kick her relative ass.
That pretty good loophole in prophecy twist.
I think he is curse on the same level of great curse at Greatness 10.
Fate can dictate outcome but they are not strongest or cleverest of the god.
So I guess fight with them is pretty clever plan and avoid their trapping of us that force us to fight heroine.
No one forbid us to fight them instead.
Our lose to the heroine maybe Fated that write on the bone of earth but no one said that we can not kick her relative ass.
That pretty good loophole in prophecy twist.
On the subject of people being called Accursed before we met the actual Accursed, Arthur was for a bit as well:
Speaking of Unnamed Quest, Control feels suspiciously like an Overlord, complete with a Heroine who can do the impossible he's up against, being originally from Earth, and being unnaturally good at things. I assume this has been brought up at some point, but looking over the quest the similarities are kind of glaring.
Those are (pretty much) the only references I could find (here or Spacebattles) to someone being called Accursed besides the previously mentioned ones during the Odyssey, when Ulyssian used it as a vigilante name. (There's one point in Unnamed Quest where Control is referred to as "the accursed man in black", but that doesn't seem relevant.)
Speaking of Unnamed Quest, Control feels suspiciously like an Overlord, complete with a Heroine who can do the impossible he's up against, being originally from Earth, and being unnaturally good at things. I assume this has been brought up at some point, but looking over the quest the similarities are kind of glaring.
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Aabcehmu
Confusion as a Natural State of Being
- Location
- Chicago, IL
- Pronouns
- Any/All
Rihaku does seem to be fond of anti-villain protagonists, and that is sort of like the Accursed is for the Rihakuverse, seemingly.
The real Accursed was inside you all along!
I want to know what is Fate hax skill.Resurrected previous dark lord should give us enough information to counter them.
I am feel relieve that Fate is not strongest that mean brute force also work on them just don't go against their specialty power.
Winter is Might,Spring is Grace...what is had skill of other two?
There are too little information for us to guess but atleast we know they have time hax and winter artifact.
I am feel relieve that Fate is not strongest that mean brute force also work on them just don't go against their specialty power.
Winter is Might,Spring is Grace...what is had skill of other two?
There are too little information for us to guess but atleast we know they have time hax and winter artifact.
The real Accursed is the friends we made along the way? (And then, of course, ate for power. Where did you think the curses came from?)
Edit:
These are just one Age title for each of them, and we still don't know that Grace is Spring, for that matter — it could always be Summer, a zero-sum system which allows for its user to shine brightly, but with impossible burning demands?
Spring magic, to stay in theme, would be inherently growth-ish, while Autumn would be net-negative with each significant application? That actually fits with how the Diagram gets stronger when it kills other races: that's a net negative exchange of magics where you trade other races' magics to make this system stronger — but, presumably, less so than the sum of its strength and theirs. (Otherwise the Diagram would be a lot stronger.)
Summer and Winter would be, I don't know, external/internal, because summer is when the outside world is at its peak while winter forces you to stay inside and focus on yourself? (See the note for more reasoning on why this seems somewhat likely.) That's a bit forced of a way to fit in Cultivation, but it would fit Cultivation and the Binary, and I really don't have enough information to make any extrapolations with all of three data points of which only two have known assignment.
Notably, going back to True Alchemist, the Diagram option — Liminal Branch — was between the Cultivation-ish option of Internalize, which empowers the self much like Cultivation does, and the clearly Artifice-focused Externalize, so that puts the Diagram between Cultivation (color confusing there, because there's some reason to use Winter's color and some reason to use the Mien of Might's color) and Artifice. Substitute in seasons and we get Fall between Winter and (whoever's fault the Binary is). That makes it in my mind reasonable to assign the Binary, or at least Artifice, to Summer, no? On the other hand, as mentioned above, this is way too little information to get any solid beliefs. This would also link Summer/Winter to External(ize)/Internal(ize) respectively, though who knows how accurate that is, and it's kind of begging the question a bit.
Note: Somewhat supporting the Internalize/Winter link, Internalize was Winter's color. Also, I'm leaving Summer uncolored because we don't know his(/her, but male would give a 2-2 gender split, Summer+Fall male and Winter+Spring female — Fall was referred to as Sir in the intro, so is probably male, meaning they aren't just all female, though that would be an alternate theme) color, and any color I picked would be a somewhat unfair support for my theory despite being completely unfounded.
(Here, have 400 words of analysis from nowhere!)
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RedV
Refuelling
- Location
- Right here
I am sad we didn't take Internalize if it was Winter's colour. Extrusion was more than worth it, but I feel regretful about lacking those Winter themes.
Ah well. Hindsight and all that shit. We didn't yet know the significance of the colour white, though we should have detected it by then given blurb for Philosopher-King and the intro post. I blame my flexgray background that displayed everything in white so I couldn't easily get the whitetext.
Ah well. Hindsight and all that shit. We didn't yet know the significance of the colour white, though we should have detected it by then given blurb for Philosopher-King and the intro post. I blame my flexgray background that displayed everything in white so I couldn't easily get the whitetext.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
Hmm. An 'Optimal' build for max cultivation with unlimited BP...
It would seem to be:
EFB Amplification
EFB Ego, Organ, Soul, Dao
Cultivate to 7.9 (Effective Stage 14.9)
EFB Forge
Forge Magnum Opus Perfecting Artifacts for Ego, Organ, Soul. (Let's say +0.5 Stages each, so 16.4 Cultivation Stages)
3/12 Magnum Opuses
Beyond True Alchemist -> Palimpsest
EFB Palimpsest, Form of Virtuosity (17.4 Stages)
Forge Ring of Truth (4/12 Magnum Opuses) - Blow up Liches if needed.
EFB Truth (17.9 Stages), True Incarnation (18.15 Stages, Combat 20.15 Stages, Forging 18.15+Magnum Opus boost)
Magnum Opus Palimpsest (5/12 Magnum Opuses, unknown effects)
Cost: 76 BP
/
Leaving that aside, I do seriously think Nameless should research Baenlixnaier's Fate-Eyes, Battle Diagram var. Between Daoless, Azure Flare, Fated Overlord and his sheer power, the risks of Fate-Eyes are considerably lessened.
It would seem to be:
EFB Amplification
EFB Ego, Organ, Soul, Dao
Cultivate to 7.9 (Effective Stage 14.9)
EFB Forge
Forge Magnum Opus Perfecting Artifacts for Ego, Organ, Soul. (Let's say +0.5 Stages each, so 16.4 Cultivation Stages)
3/12 Magnum Opuses
Beyond True Alchemist -> Palimpsest
EFB Palimpsest, Form of Virtuosity (17.4 Stages)
Forge Ring of Truth (4/12 Magnum Opuses) - Blow up Liches if needed.
EFB Truth (17.9 Stages), True Incarnation (18.15 Stages, Combat 20.15 Stages, Forging 18.15+Magnum Opus boost)
Magnum Opus Palimpsest (5/12 Magnum Opuses, unknown effects)
Cost: 76 BP
/
Leaving that aside, I do seriously think Nameless should research Baenlixnaier's Fate-Eyes, Battle Diagram var. Between Daoless, Azure Flare, Fated Overlord and his sheer power, the risks of Fate-Eyes are considerably lessened.
RedV
Refuelling
- Location
- Right here
Indeed, the Eyes of Kong are a much better eye power, once we can just unlock their development instead of having them sit at 0 development.
I'm sure they will help us achieve further Truth diagrams, since they are the Truth-seeking eyes. Their purpose is to seek the Truth, further development in that direction would surely be good for Truth purposes.
I'm sure they will help us achieve further Truth diagrams, since they are the Truth-seeking eyes. Their purpose is to seek the Truth, further development in that direction would surely be good for Truth purposes.
Any benefit form the eye that see fate?
I am curious about Fate power level and their hax skill thought.
Reread our childhood choice again,I see description of our Grand Pa as first Titan but why Kong said he is the fastest cultivator?
Kong actually reach Dao Cleaving before Yong but somehow Yong reach Titan first?
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As seen in the Path of the King, it is possible to spend BPs on some stages after EFB Dao, so just taking stagless stages without spending BPs is almost certainly not optimal in that regard. Rather such a build would probably go EFB for those stages as well.
EFB puts a limit on both the number of artifacts and the strength of them (2x Ascendant Titan essence), so while artifacts get a huge bones form being Magnum Opuses, there is probably some cultivation level where you get more powerful artifacts with FB Forge instead.