- Location
- Rivendell
[X] Vengeance
-
Going forward, links to content from Twitter (now X) will no longer be embedded. Pre-existing links should not be affected.
Even Further Beyond [Complete]
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
Da Boyz
The Cutest Apocalypse.
[X] Justice
Mercy maims Nameless by destroying 1/3rd of his Thrice Great nature and removes the greatest strength of the elves. This will vastly weaken what efforts can be made to improve the world to come. While I prefer Vengeance I'll take the "sane" option if it means we don't deprive billions of innocents of comfort in the name of mitigating the suffering of four self-obsessed and evil beings.
Mercy maims Nameless by destroying 1/3rd of his Thrice Great nature and removes the greatest strength of the elves. This will vastly weaken what efforts can be made to improve the world to come. While I prefer Vengeance I'll take the "sane" option if it means we don't deprive billions of innocents of comfort in the name of mitigating the suffering of four self-obsessed and evil beings.
Last edited:
Remember, Artifice is only half of the Elves' Binary Magic, and the less used half at that. That may change for Blood Elves, since now they can recover the power spent on it the same way Thrice Great let us Cultivate it back up, but most Elves focus on Naturalism.
- Location
- Pindorama
Heh, it's rare for me arguing for the less merciful options, but here goes; I actually think the Fates are even more despicable than someone like Zang Kong, both in terms of death count and the fact that Kong had no idea about the consequences of the Dao he chose, while the Fates are not compelled to do anything, they are just assholes.
Do they deserve death? Maybe. But pay attention to the wording of the Justice option.
By this description, once they suffered all they have inflicted onto others, their pain would cease. It is simply a form of retribution, and of understanding the suffering they caused. In our world, we generality deprive people of certain rights in order to enforce normative behavior; in a sense, this is no different. That such large punishments are given to them only attest the size of their crimes. Humans have imprisoned people for life for what would be comparatively nothing.
It is cruel in the sense that the privation of any liberty is cruel, that having your ultimate fate decided by others is cruel. And yet, that is what they did, and worse besides. This is simply the harvest of what they have sown.
It is Justice, not just for us, but for all of those that came before.
Do they deserve death? Maybe. But pay attention to the wording of the Justice option.
By this description, once they suffered all they have inflicted onto others, their pain would cease. It is simply a form of retribution, and of understanding the suffering they caused. In our world, we generality deprive people of certain rights in order to enforce normative behavior; in a sense, this is no different. That such large punishments are given to them only attest the size of their crimes. Humans have imprisoned people for life for what would be comparatively nothing.
It is cruel in the sense that the privation of any liberty is cruel, that having your ultimate fate decided by others is cruel. And yet, that is what they did, and worse besides. This is simply the harvest of what they have sown.
It is Justice, not just for us, but for all of those that came before.
It's fun to see how option names get referenced and recycled periodically. This was the name of the empowered Remittance in A Simple Transaction; now, it's a literal description of the action we're undertaking.
We promised to check, after we'd won. Perhaps that could be added to the list of scenes for the epilogue. Ordinarily it might be better to just attend to that offscreen in the future, but we looked to him for inspiration at the eleventh hour, and reuniting him with Baenlixnaire could be nice.
It's unclear how much of Tyranshal's decision was based on the Diagram having fallen and Doom closing in. He was mired in despair over human nature, and possibly wracked by the costs of his Cerebration. Not necessarily an ideal starting point from which to make
That was a good quote, so seeing it reappear is a welcome surprise. Truth leads to Might, just as knowledge leads to power... and power, of course, leads to victory.
"To might alone, is given the power to decide who shall rule."
Given that Nameless is living in a world of cardboard at this point, restraint's required.
It's good that Nameless has his priorities straight.
He lacks the temperament for tyranny, honestly.
Not an Age, but a world without ages, where the works of elves and men are allowed to flourish without fearing the hand of Fate sweeping it all away.
The Ascendant Signs have interesting implications for the metaphysics of the setting. Blood is distinct from and more important than Flesh - a strange line to draw - but beneath Essence.
Man, I could spend all day reading about crazy lich experiments. It's neat that this isn't unprecedented, at least in theory.
Of the Truespells we were offered, Prodigious Might is honestly the coolest. The ability to survive destruction of our physical body as a wraith of light and fire is also valuable when subjecting ourselves to powerups that test the limits of our endurance. The mastered Ring of Truth being indestructible, at least in our neighborhood of conceptual potency, is convenient too.
Distillation of Blood to the point that it can support one's Essence, and then casting that form into Flesh. Essence is nebulous and blood liquid; no wonder our vampiric offspring have ridiculous powers of shapeshifting. But as interesting as this is, I can't help imagining the alternate universe where we're meditating on Baenlixnaire's teachings to bring forth the Ring.
An unsavory outcome, eh? Like some... world of darkness? The more likely outcome is no world at all, though, if that strength's wielded imprudently. We still need an answer for the world's frailty, which sounds like a problem for Beyond Points. Conveniently, we can acquire more of them here.
Zang is immune to the 'for fuck's sake' defense. Even now, we're still looking at an uphill battle. But the Endless Sky stands alone, and Nameless elected to share his power rather than wield it to bludgeon the world into a shape of his choosing.
We never did meet Xiaoling's mother. She's been offscreen a while, but it's true that her information led us to Tyranshal, and Suizhen's been the best bodyguard anyone could ask for.
The glimpses we've gotten of the Ming are fun. They run their Great Clan as a corporation; given the typical ethics or lack thereof in Xianxia, this may actually be better.
Man, this is worse than Nameless oneshotting Taishan! Seems we're destined to have all visits to their boardroom end in displays of power.
I do wonder what it would look like if Xiaoling donned the Battlesuit; perhaps one of those candle flames would flare into an inferno. Unfortunately, it's way less flattering than an elven dress! Taishan must be rolling in the grave he doesn't have, on account of having been obliterated utterly.
Xiaoling's heritage got her childhood friends killed, causing her to close herself off from the world, so sweeping into the room effectively announcing it loud and clear is a big step for her. Her friends and Suizhen's family both ought to get fast-tracked for resurrection, along with the likes of Thriesiel and the artificers.
Words like 'coup' and 'highway robbery' are so graceless. Just call it a succession!
On the Isle of the Elves and among our companions, it's sometimes easy to forget this is a Xianxia setting. Then you see the way power trounces all other concerns, the reflexive groveling before the strong common in the Age of Might, and clarity returns. Would the Ring really have been so bad? Or would it have just revealed a truth that already exists?
I wonder what Liefang will think of all this. Despair over plans overturned, maybe? Reluctant, grudging pride? Jinyue's a Pawn, so he'll have a firsthand account. On second thought that's probably how we got introduced to Xiaoling in the first place...
It's amusing that despite not doing much of anything for the past ten updates, Xiaoling still gets catapulted to ultimate power dwarfing the likes of Yong Shen. Nameless needs to up his spoiled brat game!
At these speeds, anywhere in the world is just a step away.
...if I'm reading this right they mistook Suizhen for Zang on account of her sheer power.
In Xianxia, declarations about a dead family coupled with overwhelming might typically do not end well for the person on the other end of the conversation.
My earlier comments about the Ring stand. Truth leads to Might, and Might reveals the Truth.
Behold, the future Empress of Cultivators. At least the world won't want for spaghetti. Also, this would be a dire infosec breach if infosec was at all relevant in the face of our current strength.
C'mon, guys, you have semi-regular exposure to Zang Kong! You should be better at this. We need Jiarong to give them lessons on proper groveling.
The Battlesuit's wearer is as impossible to deny as the Truth itself.
Well, this is going to be cool.
It's fitting that the first truly altruistic application of the power we've spent so much effort and so many build votes accumulating would be by Suizhen. I can see the appeal of Rain, in this moment, and a world where her aptitude for rule is equal to her skill in combat. But we have forever, so perhaps she'll get there anyway.
And now it begins.
All we're missing is Elrond, though Amouthanos and Mourndiel combined fulfill his role.
They've already rescinded the Fated Overlord, so they're not blind to our threat, but best not to give them any room to twist outcomes. Unbreakable loyalty's useful that way, and also incredibly ripe for abuse in a civilization not governed by Elven morals. Looking at you, Liefang.
Amouthanos has Nameless pegged. Perhaps not surprisingly, lots of the survivors from previous Ages despair of ever overturning the cycle.
The contrast between diminished and undiminished elves is sharp, but it's a nice way of adapting the weariness from the passing ages of Arda to this world. I wonder what the Forge-Lord will be like when restored to perfect form? Does he even want that, when it would drastically alter his personality?
Valid point, and probably good to probe for treachery before setting off. Or maybe this is just an innocuous question, who knows?
Huh, does vampiric essence manipulation augment Aurelia's Naturalism? Majesty's description does say it 'compounds essence upon essence', so perhaps that's synergistic with distillation.
Amouthanos continues to take no prisoners in verbal exchanges.
The blood elf artifice exploit is great, honestly. Nameless can't risk triggering Awakening, but this validates the decision to go with Distillation.
Infinity Gauntlet aside, this is interesting. Four Jewels, four Signs, four Seasons. Conquest is the Bow, Prowess is the Sword, Insight is the Scales, and Harvest is obviously the Scythe. The correspondences to the Seasons are a little less straightforward. The Scythe might be Autumn or Winter, though I'm inclined to think the latter has the Scales, for the Famine-associations; Numair did say her Ages were 'sparse' in comparison. That leaves Summer with the Sword, and the Bow for Spring? This does make the comment that the Bow is 'ineffective against our true nemesis' retroactively hilarious, though. I wonder if there were any interactions with the Fates gated behind specific Signs?
Okay, I'll admit to laughing at that one.
Between Xiaoling and the Extrusion, we're going to be paying that this off for a while. Tell me we at least extracted a distillation fee!
Suizhen adapting to Nameless and growing as a person enough to banter has been nice.
Don't do it, Suizhen. You should hold out for the pay bump that comes with being Empress!
She did empty the Trade Throne's coffers, which I imagine would hurt imperial stability if that weren't about to become a non-issue.
The sickeningly saccharine banter in public makes me feel for him. They're like newlyweds, but worse, because of the permanent lover's oath. And we still don't know what her Dao is!
Somebody has to keep this circus pointed in the right direction. My sympathy for Amouthanos grows with every line of dialogue.
What's the point of having a knockoff Infinity Gauntlet if you can't tell people to talk to the hand? The (second) best reason to take Vengeance is that we can unleash an arsenal of hand-related puns.
Now I see, being Empress isn't a salaried position, it's the reward itself! Being paid in authority, eh? The ultimate scam, to offload all responsibility and call it a reward!
Suizhen never does, when it comes to skill in battle. A part of me mourns for the version of the scene where she takes up Rain to shatter heaven, but this was good too.
I wonder what circumstances triggered a portal previously, if it's happened at all since the titanomachy that saw the Fates ascendant. This window into the Celestial Realm is interesting. Previously it was a blank spot in the imagination, but now we can see Servants moving about, unaware of their imminent freedom. Speaking of epilogue scenes, Elvegekere could be interesting, especially if negotiations with Zang are successful. If it was him doing the opening narration, in a sense he was our first lich (?) mentor.
Plucking Heaven's stars from the sky and forging them into our Constellation to burn there forever would be a fitting conclusion to all this. Suizhen paraphrasing Zang is uplifting, though, a statement of confidence in her power that would have been unthinkable for the orphaned girl we met on the road over an OOC year ago. This is... actually it. Regardless of what we choose, it's all coming to a close.
Last edited:
Da Boyz
The Cutest Apocalypse.
You appear to have an issue with quoting here. Right after "Of all the truespells offered, Prodigious Might is honestly the coolest."
[X] Vengeance
Changing my vote on account of realizing how thematically appropriate it is. Not the gothic horror stuff, but rather the concept that a man defined by a overwhelming conflict might cling to that ideal even when there's no longer any use for it. Nameless is a genius, a hero, and a conqueror. But he is these things because he is a man, and men do not abandon their ideals for convenience.
Changing my vote on account of realizing how thematically appropriate it is. Not the gothic horror stuff, but rather the concept that a man defined by a overwhelming conflict might cling to that ideal even when there's no longer any use for it. Nameless is a genius, a hero, and a conqueror. But he is these things because he is a man, and men do not abandon their ideals for convenience.
[X] Mercy
mostly because the Fates have experience killing of those stronger than them.
One scene I'm realy hoping to see is Nameless coming home to visit his family. I mean there's so much to unpack: the wife, the raw power, the gifting of power, grandpa's previous entanglement with Winter, and grandpa's relation with Kong
Though interesting that Lichdom is apparently mind-altering.
mostly because the Fates have experience killing of those stronger than them.
One scene I'm realy hoping to see is Nameless coming home to visit his family. I mean there's so much to unpack: the wife, the raw power, the gifting of power, grandpa's previous entanglement with Winter, and grandpa's relation with Kong
And if we continue to flip him back and forth for our own amusement, how long until he just gets fed up with our shit?
Though interesting that Lichdom is apparently mind-altering.
Last edited:
With the recent boosts and Rihaku's clarification that a bad end is unlikely, I don't think turning the tables is going to happen at this point. None of the options comment on whether pursuing them is likely alter our odds of victory, for instance.
[X] Justice
I'm not even mad at the fates. They made an interesting world to play in. They gave Nameless a great life with vast powers and good friends...the way things have gone it feels like he barely struggled. Why would he hate them?
Picking justice because I like artifacts and I'd like to hear their story.
I'm not even mad at the fates. They made an interesting world to play in. They gave Nameless a great life with vast powers and good friends...the way things have gone it feels like he barely struggled. Why would he hate them?
Picking justice because I like artifacts and I'd like to hear their story.
Rihaku
The Internet
A hero, huh... some might dispute that!
No. Now it ends.
Stop: This is super yikes
this is super yikes
You do realize that torture fantasies and the like aren't really acceptable, right? Like, it's really not okay to post content like this, and I would advise you to avoid doing such a thing in the future.
In the meantime, take 25 and a bit of a timeout. As for everyone else, well...please don't do things like this. It's really not a good thing.
>Claims that other people don't understand torture
>Thinks that rape is pinnacle for someone like Baen
Sweet, sweet summer child. Lich will spend decades having Fates build a values system just to tear it down in most cruel way. He will give them hope of salvation just to snatch them as they are about to escape. He will remove any limit on their ability to feel pain and have them reach realms of suffering never felt by a sentient being.
He will break them into soulless husks, then break them beyond that again and again, untill their whole existence is defined by suffering; but they would not forget love and happiness for such things would be allowed to them just so they never lose sights on sheer depths of their torment.
Imagine being Summer - after centuries of endless suffering you are saved by elves. You decide to repent, finding love with a commoner and having children with them. After long and fulfilled life she is on her deathbed surrounded by her children and their children too - just for all of that to vanish in puff of smoke, her and phantoms of her children going back to unlimited torture.
Then Baen stops fucking around and starts doing shit my mortal mind can't even.
But sure, rape is bad mkay
You do realize that torture fantasies and the like aren't really acceptable, right? Like, it's really not okay to post content like this, and I would advise you to avoid doing such a thing in the future.
In the meantime, take 25 and a bit of a timeout. As for everyone else, well...please don't do things like this. It's really not a good thing.
Rihaku
The Internet
Well yes, it removes all biological desires such as hunger or lust. Very convenient for plotting purposes, or focusing monomaniacally on one's hatred for the Fates!
BAENLIXNAIRE: Now that I am free of the weaknesses of the FLESH, my plans can proceed apace.
ADROS: My god I missed being able to piss.
To be fair, the ways things have gone and the way the Fates planned it are two vastly different scenarios... your ultimate destiny in their eyes was to be another of their Servants, like Elvegekere!
As an option, Mercy is decidedly lacking. We - and presumably the entire world - lose the ability to craft Artifacts, which cripples our Elven allies and renders Nameless merely Twice-Great. As a sacrifice for victory, that would be acceptable. But it's one thing to win no matter the cost, and quite another to inflate it artificially. We also lose the Fate Sign, taking a chunk out of the Diagram, and gain no Beyond Points. One of the 'benefits' of this travesty is that Baenlixnaire will be less disappointed in us, if we just betray our mentor and feed him a pack of lies about how we couldn't do better. And all this, so we can grant mercy to beings that deserve none. It's a thematic and ideological one-eighty, the least satisfying form of victory.
Justice has all the trappings of fairness and balance that the Fates so prided themselves on maintaining. We turn them into Servants, get to design the next Age, and so on and so forth. But it reeks of taking up their mantle, doing as they did. They're still alive and coherent. The wheel hasn't broken, it's just turned once more, placing them at the bottom. It's the middle of the road, an option that lacks conviction, a shrug and half-hearted nod in the direction of the goal that's been driving us. We don't shatter heaven, just take up residence in it.
Vengeance is cruel. I won't deny that, though it's a cruelty that'll be abstract and off-screen. But that is part of the story we've been telling, of a boy reborn into a world endlessly eroded, charged with protecting the present and avenging the past. We made a promise, and the nature of promises is that they remain immune to changing to circumstances. Does Nameless require the sanctification of a binding Artifact to keep the letter and spirit of his word? Are we, as questers, that fickle? This is the end. Now, more than ever, we should stay true to the roots of Nameless' character. Vengeance is not the best, most moral option. But it is the option that's truest to the protagonist we've played, and we're Truth's Ringbearer.
This is Xianxia. You take your enemies and turn them into powerups, even (or even especially) when it's unnecessary.
Justice has all the trappings of fairness and balance that the Fates so prided themselves on maintaining. We turn them into Servants, get to design the next Age, and so on and so forth. But it reeks of taking up their mantle, doing as they did. They're still alive and coherent. The wheel hasn't broken, it's just turned once more, placing them at the bottom. It's the middle of the road, an option that lacks conviction, a shrug and half-hearted nod in the direction of the goal that's been driving us. We don't shatter heaven, just take up residence in it.
Vengeance is cruel. I won't deny that, though it's a cruelty that'll be abstract and off-screen. But that is part of the story we've been telling, of a boy reborn into a world endlessly eroded, charged with protecting the present and avenging the past. We made a promise, and the nature of promises is that they remain immune to changing to circumstances. Does Nameless require the sanctification of a binding Artifact to keep the letter and spirit of his word? Are we, as questers, that fickle? This is the end. Now, more than ever, we should stay true to the roots of Nameless' character. Vengeance is not the best, most moral option. But it is the option that's truest to the protagonist we've played, and we're Truth's Ringbearer.
This is Xianxia. You take your enemies and turn them into powerups, even (or even especially) when it's unnecessary.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
No, it isn't. It's the Fates who dress reality up as various genres of fiction and try to manipulate people into playing those roles, and we're under no obligation to oblige them in that play.
Nameless was given the role of Overlord to play, but the show is over now. Is he a madman still trapped in the Fates delusions, or is he ready to walk off the stage and be whatever he wants to be?
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Again, no it does not, Naturalism still works perfectly fine.
All that is lost is the ability to create magical tools.
Practically speaking? There's nothing stopping Nameless from killing the Fates, and then building a new one in their place, because it doesn't make sense if they're a cosmic force that they're also the only one that's sapient and can play silly buggers with demanding whatever price they want for things, or can say "Yeah you can learn this magic if you accept a Doom to go with it", and so forth.
Well, it could be that the other Signs also have personifications, but that they're stuck in that Tomb that we never bothered investigating.
Like, let me be clear, if the Diagram is dependent on the presence of capricious gods who wax in power and influence every Age--each of such they cap off with an apocalypse for good measure? Then rebuilding it to not be dependent on them is the only right thingto do.
And yes, like I said--there is no reason why it should be beyond Nameless' power to just... Build a new Fate. Remember Elvekegare's Protector? He could cast that spell for the sole purpose of forging a new Fate loyal to him if Fate does require a personification to function.
We agreed to "Just Shoot Them", so Shoot them, don't back out just because you're scared they'll damage one of your toys on the way out. Kill them, and engineer something better in their place. This is the right of Reason wielded by Might.
Da Boyz
The Cutest Apocalypse.
Presumably Rihaku wouldn't mention something as a downside if we had the ability to correct it with little difficulty. Whatever system is in place will be difficult to replace with the same quality, especially without questers to inject BP steroids into Nameless.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Well, yes, that's what the BP is for.
Altering the final worldstate to achieve a more perfect victory.
I can absolutely see a post-Mercy outcome being "Build a new Fate" with its power and friendliness determined by how much we can pour into it.
And TBH, Mercy's only problem is "Fate Sign shuts down and Artifice--which was tied to it--stops". Everything else about it is pretty great?
Last edited:
Rihaku
The Internet
Interesting, it looks like most of the omake power is with Vengeance!
Da Boyz
The Cutest Apocalypse.
BP which is notably absent with Mercy since we're going against the path of just punishment or horrible overkill. If you have such faith in questers generating BP when we just exhausted our supply to become Cain then you're welcome to do so. But any argument relying on a resource we lack is pretty flawed.
Edit: It also stops the Fates from being turned from enemies into assets and recieving their richly earned retribution for the horrific crimes that they've committed? Bit of a downside there, power which could otherwise be turned to noble (or hedonistic) ends is wasted and monsters who perpetuated horrific wrongs go off with the equivalent of a cosmic slap on the wrist.
Last edited: