Echoes of Creation (30k/Exalted)

[Yzarc]

You did mention Charmed Life to get rid of the 1s previously, does it not apply here?

Sorry if this is getting too much into the weeds, I just want to figure out how hard this is to as to asses the value of Wildshaping as a bonus.

Click to shrink...

Charmed life does work, (Forgot to add it in) but you are still rolling 10 dice at difficulty 9 +1 sux and need 5 sux minimum for small scale things and 10 for large scale things. This is possible on short scale but not on large scale as Modifiers pile up.

Also take into consideration, when you use Wyldshaping it spawns Chaos/Wyldspawn. Why and where do they come from? What are the consequences of repeated use of Wyldshaping? Why did Creation not dissolve in the Balorian Crusade but the Lands shaped by the Solars did not?

These problems are solved if you take that option.

@Yzarc queries:

• What would be an example of each tier of buildings/factory?
• Given how each bonus is absolutely broken, what would be an example of Terraforming integration, creating an oasis?

Click to shrink...

Each Tier of Factory/Production can make an item/tech of that tier. So T3 can make T3, T2 and T1 tech, based on the boost. Production can make TX resource dots per year.

Essentially, Shamans can call upon the spirits to summon earthquakes, volcanic eruption, blizzards, storms and such in combat time. They can also ask them to demolish enemy fortifications and such. This is off planet provided there is a volcano or atmosphere for them to do so.

In planet, shamans can evoke the planet to raise mountains and otherwise change the planet on a Geological scale. Raise resource nodes, build planet wide fortifications etc.

There are rules as you need to be favored enough for the spirits to hear you out, but it can be done.

 

[DragonParadox]

Charmed life does work, (Forgot to add it in) but you are still rolling 10 dice at difficulty 9 +1 sux and need 5 sux minimum for small scale things and 10 for large scale things. This is possible on short scale but not on large scale as Modifiers pile up.

Also take into consideration, when you use Wyldshaping it spawns Chaos/Wyldspawn. Why and where do they come from? What are the consequences of repeated use of Wyldshaping? Why did Creation not dissolve in the Balorian Crusade but the Lands shaped by the Solars did not?

Click to shrink...

That is fair, though to get back to my original idea once you have those five successes you put them into making Resource 1 worth of desert and your next rolls get a lot easier as that now counts as a demon world when you want to make say spirits or people. It's not like they need a lot of room to stand on while you make them. Point about the repeated Chaos incursions, but hey.... some place to train our marines while we figure out how to make an artificial world-soul for the place. If the Eldar could do it I'm sure we can

 

[DXCS]

[X] (Unique) Awakened Machine Spirits (As the Worldsoul is partly a machine spirit, any tech made on the world or in orbit, will automatically be given an awakened Machine Spirit)
[X] (Unique) Anti-Chaos Wards (Any attempt to attack the planet and/or the Worldsoul is hit with -5 dice)
[X] (Unique) Unlimited resources (Raw Materials grow continuously from the core so you will never run out)
[X] (Starting Bonus) Tech Spread (Brings your tech level from Average Imperium [New forge World] to Above Imperium [Mars])

 

[Yzarc]

CHOOSE 3
[] (Unique) Unlimited resources (Raw Materials grow continuously from the core so you will never run out)

Now you will be facing many resource shortages as importing resources imported from other planets is dependent on rolls and you can loose entire shipments to warpstorms or pirates etc. Only Planetary Resources cannot be disrupted unless you are being attacked. However, this is capped. A Planet has a Capacity post which it can not produce any more resources.

For Example: Colchis has a cap of Two T5 Resource dots. So that is the max capacity. So a max of two T5 factories can be built on the planet.

A planet with Unlimited Resources can produce as much resources as you can build factories to mine and process the resources. This includes exotic resources.

For Example: Colchis with this, can produce as much resources as ypu can build factories. So unlimited T5 Factories can be built on the planet.

[] (Unique) Awakened Machine Spirits (As the Worldsoul is partly a machine spirit, any tech made on the world or in orbit, will automatically be given an awakened Machine Spirit)

As it says on the tin. This automatically activates the Machine spirit of a tech produced on Colchis or in Colchis orbit. Wakes dormant machine spirits, bringing them back to active function allowing them to actively resist any AI or daemon hacking/possession attempts (Give them opposition rolls to what would normally be a unrolled action by the AI/Daemon). They can also communicate with the user and other Machine Spirits better and lower difficulty of warding, Incarnation attempts.

[] (Unique) Anti-Chaos Wards (Any attempt to attack the planet and/or the Worldsoul is hit with -5 dice)

As it says on the tin. -5 Dice to all Pre-boost rolls when Chaos or "Evil" are attacking anyone or anything on Colchis or in Colchis orbit.

[] (Unique) Wyldshaping (The Planet counts as your Worldbody for the purpose of Wyldshaping)

Wyldhsaping has an increasing difficulty per roll each time you use it anywhere not near a warp rift. This also weakens the real space where you used it, allowing Chaos to whisper to those in the area.

Taking this option allows free use of the charm WITHOUT the increasing difficulty per roll in Colchis and does not spawns Chaos/Wyldspawn. The space also does not weaken when you use it on Colchis. This allows you to instantly complete an action of setting up infrastructure, saving you a MACRO action point.

[] (Unique) Terraforming integration (Integrates the Terraforming machine into the Worldsoul, giving the spirits greater power to affect the physical world)

Shamans can call upon the spirits to summon Battlefield or city scale earthquakes, volcanic eruption, blizzards, storms and such in combat time. They can also ask them to demolish enemy fortifications and such. This is off planet provided there is a volcano or atmosphere for them to do so.

In planet, shamans can evoke the planet to raise mountains and otherwise change the planet on a Geological scale. Raise resource nodes, build planet wide fortifications etc. They can reshape the planet within reason. Want to raise mountains and rivers? Move continents? All do able.

But dependent on how favored they are by the spirits as Shamanism is a Give take relationship.

 

[Negation]

Oh. So should we drop Terraforming and go for Unlimited Resources?

 

[Trexfromants]

[X] (Unique) Unlimited resources (Raw Materials grow continuously from the core so you will never run out)
[X] (Unique) Anti-Chaos Wards (Any attempt to attack the planet and/or the Worldsoul is hit with -5 dice)
[X] (Unique) Wyldshaping (The Planet counts as your Worldbody for the purpose of Wyldshaping)
[X] (Starting Bonus) Tech Spread (Brings your tech level from Average Imperium [New forge World] to Above Imperium [Mars])

 

[Alratan]

I actually think that we should gamble; that we should remove the anti-chaos wards and have infinite resources and permit Wyld Shaping.

Then we can build so many more defences that if Chaos attacks they'd lose anyway, given that those defences will have activate machine spirits and so be very hard to bypass or shit down.

Colchis is just one world. We should be looking at how to maximise its productivity so we can project power.

[X] (Unique) Unlimited resources (Raw Materials grow continuously from the core so you will never run out)
[X] (Unique) Awakened Machine Spirits (As the Worldsoul is partly a machine spirit, any tech made on the world or in orbit, will automatically be given an awakened Machine Spirit)
[X] (Unique) Wyldshaping (The Planet counts as your Worldbody for the purpose of Wyldshaping)
[X] (Starting Bonus) Tech Spread (Brings your tech level from Average Imperium [New forge World] to Above Imperium [Mars])

 

[Profilozof]

I actually think that we should gamble; that we should remove the anti-chaos wards and have infinite resources and permit Wyld Shaping.

Then we can build so many more defences that if Chaos attacks they'd lose anyway, given that those defences will have activate machine spirits and so be very hard to bypass or shit down.

Colchis is just one world. We should be looking at how to maximise its productivity so we can project power.

[X] (Unique) Unlimited resources (Raw Materials grow continuously from the core so you will never run out)
[] (Unique) Awakened Machine Spirits (As the Worldsoul is partly a machine spirit, any tech made on the world or in orbit, will automatically be given an awakened Machine Spirit)
[X] (Unique) Wyldshaping (The Planet counts as your Worldbody for the purpose of Wyldshaping)
[X] (Starting Bonus) Tech Spread (Brings your tech level from Average Imperium [New forge World] to Above Imperium [Mars])

Click to shrink...

Removing chaos can suck it boost? Are you mad? Until and unless tyranids and/or C'tan (not necrons full ass on C'tan) are making soup out of milky way, chaos is the enemy, especially since we denied them so much.

 

[Alratan]

Removing chaos can suck it boost? Are you mad? Until and unless tyranids and/or C'tan (not necrons full ass on C'tan) are making soup out of milky way, chaos is the enemy, especially since we denied them so much.

Click to shrink...

Of course Chaos is an enemy. But it's an enemy of the galaxy, not just of Colchis, and I think the best way to beat them is to make Colchis incredibly productive so that we can take the fight to them, not to have a defensive posture.

Chaos wards only ever do anything if they directly attack Colchis, and I think it quite possible that they won't given how hard a beating they've taken here already.

At some point enough orbital defences and a strong enough garrison

And if we can, for example, both Wyld Shape and Terraform on a massive scale, we can build anti-Chaos infrastructure. Probably not as good as building it into the World Soul, but Geomantic Manse networks should be able to do something.

 

[Alratan]

Just to note that Machine Spirits are actually a really important anti-Chaos defence.

However, unlike the wards; they're a defence that works everyone an item made on Colchis is taken.

If we want to be ambitious and make a better galaxy, they're a very important tool.

Importantly, they're also automatic. They're not like Wyld Shaping which needs Fan, or even Terraforming which needs a Shaman, any item made by anyone on Colchis would have an awakened machine spirit.

This also makes a much cooler and much more fun and distinctive world, where the toaster has an active spirit and you can talk to it, as does everything else, including children's toys, cars, power stations, and everything else.

In a world here AI is suspect at best, dangerous at worst, this would allow a massive step forward in terms of productivity.

 

[Yzarc]

This also makes a much cooler and much more fun and distinctive world, where the toaster has an active spirit and you can talk to it, as does everything else, including children's toys, cars, power stations, and everything else.

Click to shrink...

Just note, Machine Spirits come in complexity as well. Some are simple and animalistic while others can be miztaken for an AI.

 

[Alratan]

Just note, Machine Spirits come in complexity as well. Some are simple and animalistic while others can be miztaken for an AI.

Click to shrink...

Fair, for many things, you'd talk to your toaster like you would a pet.

That's still a big difference to it being non-sentient.

 

[Starh]

[X] (Unique) Awakened Machine Spirits (As the Worldsoul is partly a machine spirit, any tech made on the world or in orbit, will automatically be given an awakened Machine Spirit)
[X] (Unique) Anti-Chaos Wards (Any attempt to attack the planet and/or the Worldsoul is hit with -5 dice)
[X] (Unique) Unlimited resources (Raw Materials grow continuously from the core so you will never run out)
[X] (Starting Bonus) Tech Spread (Brings your tech level from Average Imperium [New forge World] to Above Imperium [Mars])

 

[Acolyte]

Of course Chaos is an enemy. But it's an enemy of the galaxy, not just of Colchis, and I think the best way to beat them is to make Colchis incredibly productive so that we can take the fight to them, not to have a defensive posture.

Chaos wards only ever do anything if they directly attack Colchis, and I think it quite possible that they won't given how hard a beating they've taken here already.

At some point enough orbital defences and a strong enough garrison

And if we can, for example, both Wyld Shape and Terraform on a massive scale, we can build anti-Chaos infrastructure. Probably not as good as building it into the World Soul, but Geomantic Manse networks should be able to do something.

Click to shrink...

Not really. Mars is already incredibly productive, didn't beat chaos.

 

[Alratan]

Not really. Mars is already incredibly productive, didn't beat chaos.

Click to shrink...

Mars has played a large role in keeping Chaos as contained as much as it has.

Even with their being a trap on Mars that Chaos triggered to screw them.

Chaos Wards don't do anything at all to defeat Chaos either. They may it harder for them to attack Colchis or its orbit, but they could still blockade the planet, or destroy it with bombardment by long range non-Chaotic weapons.

Also, Mars is likely to be much less productive than we can manage. It doesn't have infinite resources, can't dynamically be reconfigured to improve logistics, and doesn't make every machine made there have an awakened spirit.

Mars has also never been in danger of falling to external Chaotic attack, but rather to internal subversion. Even if the Scrapcode hadn't worked the Fabricator General would still have switched sides, because he didn't realise, I think, that he was siding with Chaos and instead recognised that long term the Emperor were the Mechanicum's enemy.

 

[ImBuda]

[X] (Unique) Awakened Machine Spirits (As the Worldsoul is partly a machine spirit, any tech made on the world or in orbit, will automatically be given an awakened Machine Spirit)
[X] (Unique) Anti-Chaos Wards (Any attempt to attack the planet and/or the Worldsoul is hit with -5 dice)
[X] (Unique) Unlimited resources (Raw Materials grow continuously from the core so you will never run out)
[X] (Starting Bonus) Tech Spread (Brings your tech level from Average Imperium [New forge World] to Above Imperium [Mars])

 

[Alratan]

One thing that I think people shouldn't underestimate is how powerful being able to Wyldshape the planet in a macro-scale might be.

If we want to become an inter-stellar scale, being able to very quickly repair the orbital shipyards, and to build factories might be an enormous accelerant. It effectively allows us to bypass the tools to make the tools to make the tools stage.

If we can spin machine tool factories into existence to create machine tools with awakened spirits, it may be possible to very rapidly accelerate our industrial development.

And if macro-scale Wyld Shaping extends to shaping large numbers of people we may be able to rapidly increase the population to work in those factories as well.

 

[Yzarc]

You have restored the lost cities and population. So you have basic factories and production facilities at the Average Imperium level, just no orbital facilities.

This is without the Mars option.

 

[NinjaOfOrthanc]

[X] (Unique) Unlimited resources (Raw Materials grow continuously from the core so you will never run out)
[X] (Unique) Awakened Machine Spirits (As the Worldsoul is partly a machine spirit, any tech made on the world or in orbit, will automatically be given an awakened Machine Spirit)
[X] (Unique) Terraforming integration (Integrates the Terraforming machine into the Worldsoul, giving the spirits greater power to affect the physical world)
[X] (Starting Bonus) Tech Spread (Brings your tech level from Average Imperium [New forge World] to Above Imperium [Mars])

 

[Acolyte]

Chaos Wards don't do anything at all to defeat Chaos either. They may it harder for them to attack Colchis or its orbit, but they could still blockade the planet, or destroy it with bombardment by long range non-Chaotic weapons.

Click to shrink...

Those kind of dedicated combat instead of raids favour imperium. They have deeper reserves and we would be a major node so massive potential for reinforcement.

Also, Mars is likely to be much less productive than we can manage. It doesn't have infinite resources, can't dynamically be reconfigured to improve logistics, and doesn't make every machine made there have an awakened spirit.

Click to shrink...

It has functionality infinite ones because of imports.

Awakened machine spirits didn't exist before hand. Now that they do, mars has so many tech adeptd that they can likely do it through massive trained manpower.

 

[Mostlyblue]

[X] (Unique) Awakened Machine Spirits (As the Worldsoul is partly a machine spirit, any tech made on the world or in orbit, will automatically be given an awakened Machine Spirit)
[X] (Unique) Anti-Chaos Wards (Any attempt to attack the planet and/or the Worldsoul is hit with -5 dice)
[X] (Unique) Terraforming integration (Integrates the Terraforming machine into the Worldsoul, giving the spirits greater power to affect the physical world)
[X] (Starting Bonus) Tech Spread (Brings your tech level from Average Imperium [New forge World] to Above Imperium [Mars])

Works for me, our tech gets way ahead, and we can still research dark age stuff on the surface.

Also @Yzarc when is Lorgan gonna change the legion name, kinda odd for him to go with Imperial Heralds still when he knows what happened to Corax.

Also nice that we have 40k marines, they're way more skilled than 30k legionnaires.

 

[Yzarc]

Also @Yzarc when is Lorgan gonna change the legion name, kinda odd for him to go with Imperial Heralds still when he knows what happened to Corax.

Also nice that we have 40k marines, they're way more skilled than 30k legionnaires.

Click to shrink...

The name change thing is not something that will happen till he meets the Legion Proper. He is also holding off on changing the name as he has yet to come around to it, being pre-occupied and the marines not having personalities so far. He wants to include them in the discussion before changing the name.

He did not get much from Corax other than the name of daemon Lorgar's legion i.e Word Bearer, the guide book to awaken and a copy of the Codex Astarties.

OCC: You will get the name vote but only when you meet the Legion Proper, i.e when you meet the Emperor and are given command.

That said, 40k marines are variants of the indoctrinated, mass production versions that the Legions made during the end of the Hersay to bolster their numbers and make up for lossess.

30K marines are individually trained and have a lot less Hypno-Therapy and are given actual training from start to finish. It is Why 30K Marines, Chaos and otherwise, are so disappointed with 40K marines.

And also why the Primaris are chumps, both in lore and in rules, despite being arguably better.

 

[Alratan]

That said, 40k marines are variants of the indoctrinated, mass production versions that the Legions made during the end of the Hersay to bolster their numbers and make up for lossess.

30K marines are individually trained and have a lot less Hypno-Therapy and are given actual training from start to finish. It is Why 30K Marines, Chaos and otherwise, are so disappointed with 40K marines.

Click to shrink...

I thought it was the opposite. 40K marines are more highly trained, receive a lot more individual attention, have much more stringent selection criteria and are generally much more experienced than 30K ones.

Not everything in the Imperium has got worse, just most things.

 

[Yzarc]

I thought it was the opposite. 40K marines are more highly trained, receive a lot more individual attention, have much more stringent selection criteria and are generally much more experienced than 30K ones.

Not everything in the Imperium has got worse, just most things.

Click to shrink...

Not according to recent lore. From what I remember, this started during the end of the Hersay, where Legions started mass recruting, using Hypno-Therapy to fill in for training and sending them out as Canon fodder.

The Whitescars and others tried to mitigate this by Assigning an older Marine to mentor the younger one.

The result was machine trained Marines and the same problems were repeated in the Primaris Marines.

I may be misremembering how Chapters Train Marines, but they do use more Hypno-Therapy then the Legions and then provide training, which may or may not be a superior approach. But the Primaris got the back end of it as per the Lore.

 

[mmgaballah]

I thought it was the opposite. 40K marines are more highly trained, receive a lot more individual attention, have much more stringent selection criteria and are generally much more experienced than 30K ones.

Click to shrink...

its just that the 30k ones who fought in the unification wars and great crusade that survived until the heresy were honed through darwinin natural selection into the beasts they are