Devourer of Worlds - A Lavos Spawn Quest | (Chrono Trigger x RWBY Crossover) (AU Elements)

[Epsilon Rose]

Stopping Ciel... or simply stopping his failure?

Because someone went on to create the Maidens, and his own brand of immortality.

And the fact that the Maidens don't get it but he does?

That's pretty damning.

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What? Yes, he was explicit about wanting to stop Ciel.

We don't know how the Maidens were created in this version or how Ozma's immortality works. It's likely he was responsible for the former but we are completely in the dark on the later. That said, if he's anything like canon Ozma, he very much does not view the immortality as a benefit. He also doesn't seem to be gaining power from his reincarnations, which is what you would expect if he had the mindset you're implying he does.

I call her the ritual child because that's what she is. And the fact that the King already tried to do it with Veve. Obviously she knew that the ritual required royal blood, and something that Ozma is apparently aware of given his contribution to the project.

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That is not what that phrase means in story.

More importantly, the original ritual required two people with royal blood and the king originally planned to sacrifice himself and Veve to it. Athame explicitly rejected this and instead, repeatedly, used her self as the sole sacrifice. It seems extremely unlikely that she would view Salem as an acceptable sacrifice for the ritual, let alone a child raised solely for that purpose as your name implies.

He encouraged through, at minimum, enabling. If he didn't contribute to her work, she would not have progressed as far as she did. And there's no way he wouldn't be aware of what he's doing.

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He was a young scholar at that point, not some great sage. The Athame has already been working on the ritual for Decades before he arrived, probably before he was even born. He likely helped her progress, but calling it encouraging her is quite the stretch, especially when she was the queen and he was her servant. Rather, he probably believed the charismatic leader, who most of the kingdom seems to hold in high regard, when she told him the sacrifices were necessary and the lesser evil.

You are actively removing agency from the literally queen of a nation, someone who is famed as a prodigy when it comes to magic, and giving it to a young scholar in her service just so you can attribute more sin to Ozpin. That doesn't seem reasonable.

 

[BronzeTongue]

Stopping Ciel... or simply stopping his failure?

Because someone went on to create the Maidens, and his own brand of immortality.

And the fact that the Maidens don't get it but he does?

That's pretty damning.

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It'd almost be funny if he'd managed to monkey's paw himself in his quest for immortality.

As in, he did do what you're outlining and used his screwed up research to make himself immortal and to create some fancy beat sticks to deal with anyone who discovers his secret.

Then, over the course of hundreds of years, he finds his way to empathy and comes to understand just how horrifyingly awful he is.

He can't or won't stop his resurrection cycle, so he gets a front row seat to the soul of each of his new victims getting subsumed, with excruciatingly detailed knowledge of exactly what he's doing to them.

Then, he has to deal with the consequences of his fancy weapons platforms essentially eating people via a lower grade version of the same mechanism and how he both still needs their strength but also can't even begin to determine how to explain himself to anyone.

So he runs a conspiracy to contain his sins (which Salem could conceivably be counted among from a certain perspective), and hides what exactly is going on out of a mix of practicality and intense shame.

Not sure if that's actually the case, but it's an interesting thought.

 

[Mashadarof402]

You are actively removing agency from the literally queen of a nation, someone who is famed as a prodigy when it comes to magic, and giving it to a young scholar in her service just so you can attribute more sin to Ozpin. That doesn't seem reasonable.

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Who said anything about removing the queen's agency?

She is very culpable, but Ozpin contributed a great deal. He has no clean hands in this, and his actions in this redo are pretty damning. Because, again, he isn't trying to stop his past self from making the same mistake, but the outcome of it.

More importantly, the queen died OTL, and her sins died with her. But Ozpin kept chugging on.

 

[Unaligned Player]

@Mashadarof402 My apologies, you have not declared death on Ozpin, just that he's an evil cunt. Rest of my post still stands ya irrational engine of hate.

 

[Epsilon Rose]

Who said anything about removing the queen's agency?

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The only way your description of Ozma "encouraging" the queen could count as actual encouragement is if you remove her agency and ability to do things on her own. Honestly, even then it barely works, since the implication is he's only been around for a few months. Remember, Salem was surprised to meet him and thought he was a new addition to the court during the gap between Blake leaving and RWBY-P returning. Conversely, the Queen has been researching the ritual for decades.

 

[Mashadarof402]

The only way your description of Ozma "encouraging" the queen could count as actual encouragement is if you remove her agency and ability to do things on her own. Honestly, even then it barely works, since the implication is he's only been around for a few months. Remember, Salem was surprised to meet him and thought he was a new addition to the court during the gap between Blake leaving and RWBY-P returning. Conversely, the Queen has been researching the ritual for decades.

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From the description in her journal, Ozma is clearly contributing a great deal to the Queen's research despite only being there for a few months.

He's an instrumental part of the plan, not some low level flunky who fetches the coffee.

If Ozma wasn't around, it would have taken her much longer to get where she is now, or she would have tried less drastic means like spreading out the population so they aren't all dependent on dwindling magic.

 

[Epsilon Rose]

If Ozma wasn't around, it would have taken her much longer to get where she is now, or she would have tried less drastic means like spreading out the population so they aren't all dependent on dwindling magic.

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Again, she was at this for decades. It's unlikely having an unusually competent assistant for a few months would be enough to produce such a drastic change that she wouldn't even consider that possibility when Salem pointed it out to her. In fact, given the timeline, it's entirely possible she was already sacrificing Wilders by the time she brought him onboard and he just helped her make it more efficient. The Wilder's grudges certainly seem more than a few months old by the time we see them.

Also, I'd like to circle back to something from your last comment.

She is very culpable, but Ozpin contributed a great deal. He has no clean hands in this, and his actions in this redo are pretty damning. Because, again, he isn't trying to stop his past self from making the same mistake, but the outcome of it.

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He set about awakening the Wilders' auras, uniting them against Ciel, and breaking Ciel's foothold in the continent. That seems like a pretty effective way of preventing more Wilders from getting snatched and sacrificed, especially compared to the alternative, which is what? Convince a new researcher that his queen is actually evil and her plan to protect their civilization is both an atrocity and doomed to failure? And then what? It's not like Ozma has the authority to stop the abductions and even if he were to leave immediately he wouldn't be able to remove the knowledge the queen has already gained.

Was he supposed to confront the queen or convince his younger self to do the same? The queen who was willing to mind control her eldest daughter at the first sign that she might have some qualms with her plan? That sounds ... Not at all viable.

As far as I can tell, arming and organizing the Wilders is the best course of action he had if he wanted to stop harm his younger self exacerbated. In fact, if he had prioritized trying to convince his younger self to change, over protecting the Wilders, I'd be more inclined to believe his actions were more about salving his ego and guilty conscience. Instead he left his younger self out to dry and worked to protect total strangers.

 

[Garlak]

More importantly, the original ritual required two people with royal blood and the king originally planned to sacrifice himself and Veve to it. Athame explicitly rejected this and instead, repeatedly, used her self as the sole sacrifice. It seems extremely unlikely that she would view Salem as an acceptable sacrifice for the ritual, let alone a child raised solely for that purpose as your name implies.

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Question, if the ritual was supposed to take 2 -- the father and the child -- but Athame interfered and only one person ended up getting killed... could that have been what wound up screwing up the "the Tower has an endless source of energy" thing?

Because the way the ancient ritual works, is that it takes just a few sacrifices of royal lives, in order to keep it running?

That, if it weren't for the fact that Athame wasn't willing to see her daughter die... the whole thing would never have happened?

Which means she went from "What the fuck? Sacrifice people? No! Especially not my own daughter!" to "Need to sacrifice outsiders to the tower... need to twist my daughter's mind to be willing to go along with this... need to make my other daughter see reason..."

That would make the whole thing bitterly ironic. I don't think this is the case, but. Well, yeah.

It'd almost be funny if he'd managed to monkey's paw himself in his quest for immortality.

As in, he did do what you're outlining and used his screwed up research to make himself immortal and to create some fancy beat sticks to deal with anyone who discovers his secret.

Then, over the course of hundreds of years, he finds his way to empathy and comes to understand just how horrifyingly awful he is.

He can't or won't stop his resurrection cycle, so he gets a front row seat to the soul of each of his new victims getting subsumed, with excruciatingly detailed knowledge of exactly what he's doing to them.

Then, he has to deal with the consequences of his fancy weapons platforms essentially eating people via a lower grade version of the same mechanism and how he both still needs their strength but also can't even begin to determine how to explain himself to anyone.

So he runs a conspiracy to contain his sins (which Salem could conceivably be counted among from a certain perspective), and hides what exactly is going on out of a mix of practicality and intense shame.

Not sure if that's actually the case, but it's an interesting thought.

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Ozpin being motivated by guilt, shame and regret at what he'd done or aided and abetted in the past would be a good additional reason for him to keep things so close to the chest and make for a good twist reveal to add on to the tragedy and messed-up-ness of the whole clusterfuck, yeah. Working to make up for past mistakes, as well as working to stop an ancient Evil Queen, as he fights a forever-war both covertly and overtly throughout the ages.

From his perspective, he'd not just be aiming to stop the rise of an evil villain, but to try and make up for partly helping bring the situation about in the first place. Double the motivation to try and 'fix things, with this miracle of a chance!' and to be stubborn about it.

 

[Epsilon Rose]

Question, if the ritual was supposed to take 2 -- the father and the child -- but Athame interfered and only one person ended up getting killed... could that have been what wound up screwing up the "the Tower has an endless source of energy" thing?

Because the way the ancient ritual works, is that it takes just a few sacrifices of royal lives, in order to keep it running?

That, if it weren't for the fact that Athame wasn't willing to see her daughter die... the whole thing would never have happened?

Which means she went from "What the fuck? Sacrifice people? No! Especially not my own daughter!" to "Need to sacrifice outsiders to the tower... need to twist my daughter's mind to be willing to go along with this... need to make my other daughter see reason..."

That would make the whole thing bitterly ironic. I don't think this is the case, but. Well, yeah.

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The Heart was already running out of power, so it was never an "endless source of energy", but the one person sacrifice may have broken it further. That said, it definitely broke the queen, because she went from

She nodded. "Of course. I'll find a way to do it safely. I'm sure... it won't be as much energy, but I can find a method that doesn't require the death of the participants." With her back turned, she never saw her father's expression.

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and willingly sacrificing herself to save her daughter to mind controlling that same Daughter so she could keep sacrificing an endless stream of Wilders.

 

[iamnuff]

Is Ozma's young self even still around in this story, or did Ozpin overwrite him when he went back?

As I recall, the scene where we see him meet the queen was a flashback, no?

Also, gotta agree, this hate-on for Oz is stretching way beyond what's rational. You're seriously reaching.

No, the maiden's souls aren't being used to power Ciel (what?)
No, it probably wasn't Ozpin's idea to sacrifice Wilders to fuel the city.
No the souls of former maidens don't seem to be in pain.
Yes, it does bear some similarity to what the queen did with her multi-layer aura.
No, we don't know that Ozpin made himself immortal. Except for the flashback, we don't know if Ozpin even is immortal in this story (It'd have been a real slap to everyone's assumptions if he actually never lived through this time-period and Ozpin really is just 50 years old, huh?)
If Ozpin is immortal in this story (probably) we don't know if it involves body-snatching and subsuming people's souls like in canon.
If Ozma's immortality does work like in canon, we have no way to know if he set this up himself somehow with his soul-wizardry, or if it was something done to him without his consent. (like in canon)
We also don't know exactly what (present)Salem is in this story, or how she came about, though I suspect that we'll shortly find out.
Likewise, we don't know exactly what he's hiding from everyone in this story, or how much overlap with canon there is.

We also, it must be noted, don't actually know what he's going to do next. People just keep making assumptions, but they're just that.
Assumptions

Ozpin being motivated by guilt, shame and regret at what he'd done or aided and abetted in the past would be a good additional reason for him to keep things so close to the chest and make for a good twist reveal to add on to the tragedy and messed-up-ness of the whole clusterfuck, yeah. Working to make up for past mistakes, as well as working to stop an ancient Evil Queen, as he fights a forever-war both covertly and overtly throughout the ages.

From his perspective, he'd not just be aiming to stop the rise of an evil villain, but to try and make up for partly helping bring the situation about in the first place. Double the motivation to try and 'fix things, with this miracle of a chance!' and to be stubborn about it.

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I like this idea. I don't think it's particularly likely, but something about the idea of "So I made myself immortal but accidentally also empowered the grimm with human intelligence in the process, so now I fight a forever-war to try to make up for what I did."

With another layer below that that says "Oh, and I can't stop killing people. Every time I die I just bodysnatch some poor sod and his soul gets subsumed by my own. I wish I could make it stop but I can't. I Ragnarok-proofed the system too hard and now I can't break it. Sorry, I'm stuck here (inadvertently murdering people every time I respawn) forever."

 

[Talon TigerDino]

Again, the Mantle doesn't eat souls. It takes a fragment, add it to itself, and spreads the strain of magic across many, many such fragments so none of them risk burning out completely. And given how Semblances run off of the self-same soul power, it seems a little odd that people of Remnant would view as some crime against nature. Heck, awakening someone's aura can be done by using a little of someone else's; the Mantle is basically a compounding, more permanent version of such an act, that also gives you even more special powers.

 

[Epsilon Rose]

As I recall, the scene where we see him meet the queen was a flashback, no?

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Salem met a young Ozma while researching the sigils, after Blake left.

 

[iamnuff]

Salem met a young Ozma while researching the sigils, after Blake left.

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I know the chapter happened after Blake left, but I thought it was a flashback to something that happened chronologically many years prior.

If not... I wonder what young-Ozma is doing now.

Again, the Mantle doesn't eat souls. It takes a fragment, add it to itself, and spreads the strain of magic across many, many such fragments so none of them risk burning out completely. And given how Semblances run off of the self-same soul power, it seems a little odd that people of Remnant would view as some crime against nature. Heck, awakening someone's aura can be done by using a little of someone else's; the Mantle is basically a compounding, more permanent version of such an act, that also gives you even more special powers.

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Yeah, but you don't normally keep bits of dead people's aura hanging off you as batteries, so I can see why people might find it distasteful.
"Agonizing soul batteries" is a a moronic assumption because the people of this setting already use their souls as batteries with no ill effects, but people part of a dead person's soul on you as equipment is...
If it's someone you know and are close to? If it's something done willingly? Then it's a touching heirloom.

I doubt any of those former fall maidens would be happy with Cinder using their souls like this though, so it goes back around to 'being fucked up' again.

 

[Mashadarof402]

Again, she was at this for decades. It's unlikely having an unusually competent assistant for a few months would be enough to produce such a drastic change that she wouldn't even consider that possibility when Salem pointed it out to her. In fact, given the timeline, it's entirely possible she was already sacrificing Wilders by the time she brought him onboard and he just helped her make it more efficient. The Wilder's grudges certainly seem more than a few months old by the time we see them.

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No, the timeline doesn't fit.

Look at this entry.

Ozma believes that he is close to a breakthough. Indeed, our latest efforts have borne much fruit – many roads have been opened, since my latest attempts. We have successfully bestowed a new Nature on a living subject, proving that it is indeed possible to modify the shape of an existing soul.

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This is the middle of the entry, not the end.

They've been at this for some time, and Ozma was already well established by the time they discovered how to carve souls.

And at that point, they were only thinking about modifying human souls, not Wilder ones. They haven't gotten to the point of turning souls into magic.

It's only at the end of the journal entry where we get to this.

She intended to reveal all to the people of the city. To beg for the forgiveness of the Wilder.

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So yes, they've been at this for some time, but not before Ozma showed up. And he's been around for some time already, going by the first time he was talked about. Maybe not years, but at least well before Blake showed up.

As far as I can tell, arming and organizing the Wilders is the best course of action he had if he wanted to stop harm his younger self exacerbated. In fact, if he had prioritized trying to convince his younger self to change, over protecting the Wilders, I'd be more inclined to believe his actions were more about salving his ego and guilty conscience. Instead he left his younger self out to dry and worked to protect total strangers.

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You're forgetting that training them into actually worthwhile combatants consumes a lot of time. Time he could have bought by slowing down his early self but didn't.

Hunters literally spend years learning at the academy before they're considered ready. Even with Ozpin short circuiting the training period, that's a lot of months unlocking their semblances and training them in the proficient usage thereof.

Tangentially, there's the knock on effects to consider. If the only sapient people outside of Ciel are Wilders, then it implies that the fall of Ciel must have been something that at least didn't perpetuate the acrimony between the two surviving factions.

That's probably not going to happen here. Ozpin has armed the Wilders, brought them to the heart of Ciel, whom they justifiably hate, and told them to go crazy.

We might be very much looking at a timeline where the human/Faunus relationship is reversed, and it's the humans who are now the untouchable caste, if not made extinct entirely. If Ozpin has considered this possibility, and to be fair he may not have thought about it, he likely considers it an acceptable price for his goal.

 

[Epsilon Rose]

I know the chapter happened after Blake left, but I thought it was a flashback to something that happened chronologically many years prior.

If not... I wonder what young-Ozma is doing now.



Yeah, but you don't normally keep bits of dead people's aura hanging off you as batteries, so I can see why people might find it distasteful.
"Agonizing soul batteries" is a a moronic assumption because the people of this setting already use their souls as batteries with no ill effects, but people part of a dead person's soul on you as equipment is...
If it's someone you know and are close to? If it's something done willingly? Then it's a touching heirloom.

I doubt any of those former fall maidens would be happy with Cinder using their souls like this though, so it goes back around to 'being fucked up' again.

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The flashback was to two months prior, which does seem a bit long for how much RWBY-P did between reuniting with Blake and returning to the past, but the flashback also explicitly references researching the circles they found with Blake. Here's the exact section.

Two Months Ago​

"Princess Salem?" A soft voice drew her attention away from the papers and tomes spread out in front of her, and she turned to gaze at the unfamiliar man in the doorway. "I was just..." He took a step closer, pausing as he glanced down at the table.

"Yes? Did mother or Veve send for me?" She crossed her arms, trying not to show frustration at her lack of results.

"Well, no. The other way around, actually. I was seeking information, and your mother suggested you would be better equipped to answer them." He took a step closer, smiling bashfully. He was dressed nicely enough to be one of her mother's attendants, simple blacks and greens but woven out of very fine fabrics.

"It must be related to magic, then. What are you seeking?" She eyed him carefully, trying to place him among the researchers that worked with her family. None of the researchers have hair that dark... has a new family emerged while I've been distracted?

"Ah... well, actually, now I'm more interested in what you're working on. Aren't those Gallien's mantras?" He gestured at one of the open tomes. "What does a meditative text have to do with the rest of these?"

She blinked, not expecting that question, then realized she had no good explanation handy for this research. Most people avoided her when she was in one of the libraries, so she hadn't expected... I certainly can't tell him about the circle. Perhaps...?

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Look at this entry.


This is the middle of the entry, not the end.

They've been at this for some time, and Ozma was already well established by the time they discovered how to carve souls.

And at that point, they were only thinking about modifying human souls, not Wilder ones. They haven't gotten to the point of turning souls into magic.

It's only at the end of the journal entry where we get to this.


So yes, they've been at this for some time, but not before Ozma showed up. And he's been around for some time already, going by the first time he was talked about. Maybe not years, but at least well before Blake showed up.

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The section I just quoted shows Salem recognizing Ozma as a new addition 2 months ago. While he might have arrived a bit before their meeting, it's unlikely it was that much earlier and he tells her he was only recently appointed at the end of that section. More pertinently, the breakthrough she's reffering to in this passage is likely a result of his discussion with Salem and we know there were abductions before that point.

So, nothing you've presented yet disputes the timeline I proposed and it doesn't suggest she needed Ozma to sacrifice Wilders.

You second quote also doesn't tell us much about the timeline, beyond the last entry occurring about a week ago. However, there are a few additional signs that she was sacrificing Wilders well before that.

There are already signs. Each ritual staves it off for less time before degrading, and neither of us have been able to determine the cause. Is it a limitation of the ritual design? Did our experiments using other subjects damage the foundation (examine)? Reverting my modifications only reduced the lifetime even further.

[...]


Discuss:
-Stabilize my soul
-Modify human (not Wilder) subject? (Risky)
-Recruit Salem?? (A heavy burden. Only if needed.)
-Perfect Nature modification (Sxtxm test extensively, last resort)

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This section references a period before Ozmas breakthrough, which strongly suggests she was sacrificing other people before she could overwrite their natures. And that conclusion is further reinforced by the list of future considerations at the end. When it says "Modify human (not Wilder) ..." it's suggesting they start modifying humans instead of Wilders, not that Wilders would be unstable.

Additionally, the fact that she had made modifications to the ritual, and that reversing them reduced its lifespan tells us she was perfectly capable of modifying it on her own and that she had done so before taking Ozma on.

The queen's hand swept out in a grand gesture. "There is no other way, you naive girl! You think I have not tried? I fed the ritual from my own soul for as long as I possibly could, but each repetition it remains stable for less time. I took the guilty, the dying, the exiled, as I searched. I have pored over the ritual and the Heart time and time again. There is no other solution. The Heart must be fed, or Ciel will collapse. Every person who looks to the Tower for support, who looks to our family for support, will be left wanting. I want you to consider every other denizen you have ever met, Salem. Every guardsman, every scholar, every laborer. Picture them and tell me you are willing to kill them, to spare those who have always been cruel neighbors at best and enemies at worst."

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This section suggests she's been sacrificing people long enough to go through all of the low hanging fruit and that she started with people who would not be missed from her own nation. We also know that she had moved on to Wilders by the time Ozpin returned to the past. Since Ozma only became her assistant shortly before the time travel, it seems unlikely that she could have also started going through the low hanging fruit when he came on and had enough time to also sacrifice a significant number of Wilders before the time travel. As such, she likely started her sacrifices before hiring him and its not a large leap to go from sacrificing random humans to sacrificing random Wilders.

Huntresses literally spend years learning at the academy before they're considered ready. Even with Ozpin short circuiting the training period, that's a lot of months unlocking their semblances and training them in the proficient usage thereof.

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He's not training children up from scratch. The tribes he's working with had already spent their entire existence surviving beyond Ciels walls and fending off the Grim. They also already had their own awakened warriors, though their armed forces were not limited to individuals with Awakened souls. Comparing them to children just starting out on the path to becoming huntsmen and huntresses doesn't make sense.

 

[Garlak]

His biggest contributions are, presumably, in giving them inside knowledge of Ciel, a plan, and being able to open the metaphorical drawbridge.

Though, I think awakened Auras were rarer in this era? I think Blake was surprised to find that the soldiers with Veve that she met were normal soldiers rather than awakened ones?

So, the Wilders might have more awakened Aura users -- due to living outside the safety of the city -- or not. But at the same time, an Aura is not as necessary for self-defense or war in this era too. It also means that Ozpin just awakening Auras real quick could be a big boost to them.


Though, even if he did spend months doing so... erm. Well, so what? So he didn't beeline to his younger-self in order to try and convince him to slow down or sabotage the Queen's research. That just means he judged that as unlikely to work; the risk of not being able to convince his past self, or in his past self not being able to perform the sabotage covertly enough, or the risk of giving things away... Either he didn't think he was able to do a inside job in the city at the same time, or he didn't think it was worth the risk, or whatnot. Or maybe he just didn't think his younger self could slow down the Queen's research feasibly; that he considered the possibility and concluded "No, the Queen would just catch on to Young Me trying to slow things down. I'd just get the young man in horrible danger and trouble if I did this. No, I should do this myself instead."

Ozpin choosing to go for some strategies and not others is not a damning indictment of him. It might perhaps be further illustrative of his desire for operation security or his fears of reaching out and trusting somebody when that somebody (his younger self) could totally fuck him over by revealing things to the Queen or might risk the young man's life -- though ironically, he's willing to reach out to the Wilders, who would resent/fear/etc humans and magicians like him! so he's not unwilling to reach out to people and take risks, he just is averse to compromising secrecy/security/etc -- but that's not exactly a super damning indictment of him.

If he had been willing to reach out to Young Ozpin though, then he -- assuming he succeeded in flipping him -- would have become aware of Team RWBY-P's presence in the city and timeline early on though. Shame.

 

[Burned_Cookie]

Here we have proof that Ozpin has been involved in literal mind reprogramming experiments at the most fundamental level. Rewriting people at the soul level, and probably not with consent.

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He worked on a project under his liege as a young impressionable man.

Using that as an argument for how evil he is untold eons later just seems strange.

That isn't even mentioning that we haven't even seen Ozma yet, rendering me hesitant of rendering judgement on him either as I don't really trust the queens words, but I realize that my "innocent until proven guilty thrice over" attitude is perhaps a bit to cautious for most peoples taste.

It's interesting to note that rather than defend the man, you choose to attack me with falsehoods instead.

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They provided quotes of the things you said? And many people including them have been defending Ozpin directly as well?

And they didn't seem to attack you either?

And when you can't, because I never made any such post, I demand an apology for your falsehoods.

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You seem to be taking the discussion of the potential fictional crimes off a fictional man as a rather personal attack.

People are engaging with the arguments you presented, as is to be expected in a discussion, not insulting you personally.

Not sure if that's actually the case, but it's an interesting thought.

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It certainly would be a very interesting narrative. The classic case of immortality gone wrong, someone who managed to crack one of humanities oldest wishes but forgot to install an emergency off button.

Would give him a bit more agency in the disasters that formed the present day as well, I never liked that the canon explanation was basically "a god screwed him over".

Rest of my post still stands ya irrational engine of hate.

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Now that is just uncalled for. They are a bit worked up, no reason for (surprisingly creative) namecalling.

Is Ozma's young self even still around in this story, or did Ozpin overwrite him when he went back?

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It seems to be more of a physical timetravel, so he should be just fine.

But that does bring up a good point:

What if Ozpin did try to bring his younger self on board, failed due to something something loyalty, and now has him locked up somewhere?

It's just a theory, but maybe something that would explain where his younger self is off to.

(The most likely explanation being of in his room reading somewhere.)

I doubt any of those former fall maidens would be happy with Cinder using their souls like this though, so it goes back around to 'being fucked up' again.

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It's almost like Cinder is using the mantles for nefarious purposes and everyone has been trying to stop her.

 

[Mashadarof402]

There are many things to say on the Ozpin argument, but much of it I feel won't convince either party. So I shall bow out of the most of it.

Except for this part.

They provided quotes of the things you said? And many people including them have been defending Ozpin directly as well?

And they didn't seem to attack you either?

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At no point did Unaligned Player provide a quote for anything I said that could be construed to be "full brazen desire to murder and torture him", the him being Ozpin.

When I called him out on that, he went on to literally accuse me of:

You have declared that you hate Ozpin and wish fir him to die,yes?

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Again, things I have not said at all.

If you feel that attacking someone using deliberate falsehoods about their person, which is the textbook definition of a strawman attack and an ad hominen in this case (and let's not forget the later flame), is NOT attacking them, then I have to little else to say to you.

 

[Garlak]

I think Burned_Cookie mistook Epsilon Rose (who had provided and used a quote of your's, the "screaming woman in perpetual torment" one) for Unaligned Player?

Unaligned Player was something stuff, and you then accused him of putting words in your mouth, and Burned_Cookie was confused by that exchange because didn't he provide the "screaming woman in perpetual torment" quote? (But no, it was originally Epsilon Rose who did that.)

 

[JOJOBRN]

I'm fairly sure the Queen started sacrificing wilders a long time before Ozma started working with her. Three months or so aren't enough for all of them to find out and start hating Ciel, even with Ozpin traveling back and telling them about it.

 

[AldariSiradla]

Gods can be brought down by the stubbornness of humanity.
Ozpin, bruh, don't do anything stupid now.
If you think Mami Salami is a bad enemy, having an entire team and Miss-Combat-Ready after your immortal ass will be infinitely worse.

 

[NaanContributor]

Funnily enough, this is something I realized and decided to come point out to the thread before all the debate about Ozpin, but I guess that just works better for being more relevant. Namely, I'm not really sure anymore that Ozpin's immortality does work the same way it does in canon.

"Ah!" The queen gasped. Her eyes flickered. "You must help me! You will-!"

– where an impossible figure stood face to face with the queen.

Ozpin's cane pinned the crown against the stone of the Tower as he stared into the queen's eyes.

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When I first read this I just accepted it as, "Oh yeah, she's mistaking modern Ozpin for her recent research assistant Ozma, and expects him to help her. Boy is she in for an unpleasant surprise."

But now I realize that wouldn't make any sense with the soul-joins-with-a-different-person-style immortality, because then Ozma and Ozpin would be completely different men and wouldn't physically look like the same person at all (as in the show). So the fact that Athame mistook Ozpin for Ozma means that his body is still the same from the beginning, which must mean he's a more traditional style of immortal in this AU right? No reincarnation, no possession.

 

[silentorphan]

So the fact that Athame mistook Ozpin for Ozma means that his body is still the same from the beginning, which must mean he's a more traditional style of immortal in this AU right? No reincarnation, no possession.

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Is it? This could be a simpler logic chain of identifying him as "Not Wilder" -> "The Only Humans In Ciel Are The Visitors (Who Are All Here) And My Subjects" -> "Help Your Queen!"

At least, I'm assuming that Time-Displaced!Ozpin isn't stuck in the body of some random faunus.

 

[Gumiho]

Is it? This could be a simpler logic chain of identifying him as "Not Wilder" -> "The Only Humans In Ciel Are The Visitors (Who Are All Here) And My Subjects" -> "Help Your Queen!"

At least, I'm assuming that Time-Displaced!Ozpin isn't stuck in the body of some random faunus.

Click to shrink...

– where an impossible figure stood face to face with the queen.

Ozpin's cane pinned the crown against the stone of the Tower as he stared into the queen's eyes.

Click to shrink...

This section is from Blake's point of view and she immediately recognises Ozpin. I am most certain that he has not hopped body's willingly or unwillingly.

 

[Unaligned Player]

deliberate

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Wrong but understandable.