Devourer of Worlds - A Lavos Spawn Quest | (Chrono Trigger x RWBY Crossover) (AU Elements)

And you are underestimating the giant Space-Time Tick ™ and probably ignoring what it's actually capable of.
I've tried looking up what Lavos can actually do, and nothing the wiki says about it implies anything beyond what the Entities are capable of. If you have information otherwise, please fill me in. I don't mean that in a condescending way, I genuinely don't have the mental focus right now to dig through pages of stuff. If you can condense it down that'd be fantastic.
 
I think you guys are ignoring the two greatest issues of any clash of a Lavosian and an Entity, even reduced ones like Obsidian and Scion. One the former waking up and getting around would be an apocalyptic event and the latter would definitely see it as a threat and go fuck collateral damage, so it is unlikely anything and anyone on the planet would actually survive. Second once they are truly taking the other seriously the moment one starts losing wouldn't they just retreat using time or dimensional magic to beyond the reach of the other?

So the end result would just be an apocalyptical everyone else dies then a long series of skirmishes as they both adapt and learn from each other. It ends whenever one learns enough the other no longer can -or is willing to- retreat, which for Obsidian would be its Arbiter and mortals so for a ObsidianXScion fight specifically I would give it to the latter, while in general it is an even battle that probably goes to whoever manages the first breakthrough in understanding the other's abilities.

Or maybe after a while both endlessly reproducing space monsters decide their goals are close enough cooperation would self-evidently benefit them both. At which point I pity whoever ends up having to try dealing with that mess, once it gets going reality is pretty much doomed.
 
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Or maybe after a while both endlessly reproducing space monsters decide their goals are close enough cooperation would self-evidently benefit them both. At which point I pity whoever ends up having to try dealing with that mess, because once it gets going reality is pretty much doomed.
Oh God, Zion deciding to bond with Obsidian and becoming an Arbiter...

"THE CYCLE MUST CONTINUE!"
 
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Except the problem with trying to account for an arbiter is that connection drags you straight into obsidian, and then she eats your face, and your juicy juicy data.
Where does the eat the face part come in? It's not like the Shard is going to connect or presumably mess with the link, assuming said Arbiter doesn't trigger. Unless we are going with the lines of thought that dimensional shenanigans, including other realities, somehow interacts with both the Flame and the brain of the Arbiter? As accounting for the Arbiter should be relatively easy, considering it is a singular person whose Shard-side model could be built up and expanded upon either via imperfect simulations/simulacrums, or simply observing the actions they undertake. So there's no actual need to really even hook up to their Brain or anything like that, but that is already out of the scope of PTV, in the sense, it can't directly control brains.

The fact that she's acausal and precog from Worm has no feats against that does not help.
In what way, considering that actual Time powers do exist in Worm, it is possible for acasual loops to occur and again it's not X Precog? Not to mention that there is limits on what Obsidion can do looking at the Information threadmarks. Besides, It would be PTV (of Zion, considering the prior context of possible fight) with an active Shard network of an incalculable but still finite size that is either actively in the field, or are being held in reserve, thus being usable, until a new Host is found.

Assuming that at a baseline they could detect the space-time warping of Obsidion's presence in the planet they'd at the very least have a definite target, and that the Data-absorption is limited to a singular spatial plane, ie not every single Earth in Worm, then the information it could pick on Shards would be limited to the connections of Parahumans. Which in of itself, is just burned-out hardware from the Shard that formulates the power expression from what I recall. That is further regulated and altered by the Shard touching upon what I assume are the finer details or software.

So the Shards, overall, should be able to detect the anomaly in Space-Time and by proxy Zion, given their nature, but it's uncertain what if anything Obsidion would pick beyond anomalies in physics around Parahumans or vaster Cycle shenanigans, like creating/finding alternate planes of reality where physical laws change, or are outright broken in some cases, such as Sting. Most Shards in a given Cycle are Supercomputers via a variety of mediums, and Obsidion could be said to be a Magical-Biological one, but I think the best comparison might be "What if an Endbringer-like Being had effectively infinite power, to grow, change, develop, etc, and a wide capacity to gather information?" As I don't doubt that Obsidion is tough, but I don't think that they are Endbringer grade tough, akin to effectively (not literally) trying to get past a galaxy's worth of matter., doubly so due to the magic.

The major reason why I doubt that normally Obsidion would win, or is very unlikely to, against Zion (by itself) is that they operate on vastly different magnitudes, given one is a planetary parasite, and the other is a multi-versal parasite that is vastly larger to the point where Lavos is small. The former does have the advantage in figuring out how to have unlimited power, via magic that may or may not be copied/learned by the opposition, and more capable of abstraction though, and Zion is at it's weakest point, given it is not operating as an Entity but as an Avatar charged with protecting the status quo of the failing Cycle.

The hardest part about killing an Entity (assuming you're anywhere on their power-level) is that they're composed of TRILLIONS of Shards, and they're scattered across just as many universes. Even if a Lavos-spawn killed the Shard in the universe they're in, can they tell if, against all odds, that was one of the Shards that was important? Hell, can they actually attack Shards that aren't in the same universe as them? What's stopping the Entity from just firing Sting at it?
That's kinda like saying a human is made out of a trillion skin cells, equivalently, WOG-wise, and it gets even weirder considering that a Shard is made out of Shards, that can then be further split until there is a point where you can no longer say there are any Shards, as the identity of a Shard, and the Collective-Shardmass that is a Colony known as an Entity, is most of the time equal to their function and what best suits it, be it thought patterns, impulses, fallacies, and so on.

So I'd imagine a Shard's Soul would be something that both easily segments and connects with both each other and outside forces.
 
At this point in description Entities sound less like incredibly potent singular lifeforms and more like a chaotic mass of supercomputers constantly connecting, disconnecting, and arguing with each other in a very energy-intensive, incoherent matter.
Or in other words, a society.
 
akin to effectively (not literally) trying to get past a galaxy's worth of matter., doubly so due to the magic.
Oh jeez this mess. We don't even need to get in to that, endbringer's don't have conceptual defenses, they have "at best" dimensional ones. Obs can just hole in infinity them akin to the atlas lab
Basically, only less infuriating and moronic.
HAH. less infuriating maybe, but well more moronic, due to the whole lack of individuality/creativity thing.
 
At this point in description Entities sound less like incredibly potent singular lifeforms and more like a chaotic mass of supercomputers constantly connecting, disconnecting, and arguing with each other in a very energy-intensive, incoherent matter.
Or in other words, a society.
They pretty much are, except individual free will/identity/separation of being is questionable outside of the Cycle as the functionality/makeup/being of an Entity, and each of those energy-intensive transmissions likely contains more information and context than a singular Civilization. So more like incoherent on the outside that only makes sense to either the Entity itself, the Partner it has paired with, or the unlikely encounter with another of their Kind.
As in total they likey have harvested over a few hundred/thousand/million/billion(?) Planets, with who knows how many variations of Life, sentient lifeforms, and then the possibilities of those civilizations. Which isn't accounting for realities where the laws of reality are weird, or where the Hosts found this one neat trick the Space-Whales would like to explore later on in another Cycle.

Hell, later on in Ward, we found out what happens to Parahumans, namely parts of the mind and memory is preserved, mostly what is deemed relevant due to the Lense of (interpersonal and overarching) Conflict the Space-Whales have, because it helps them more efficiently utilize the Shard.

Oh jeez this mess. We don't even need to get in to that, endbringer's don't have conceptual defenses, they have "at best" dimensional ones. Obs can just hole in infinity them akin to the atlas lab

HAH. less infuriating maybe, but well more moronic, due to the whole lack of individuality/creativity thing.
I never suggested otherwise, and the WOG on the EBs is effectively, not literal, which is a common misinterpretation, and it could get weird with the more Breaker powers, where reality isnt quite normal.

Ehh, debatable on the creativity department, they certainly have the tools and capacity, given, Zion's emulation, Eden's abstraction and Abaddon's philosophy, but on the scales, they work at...it's more of a liability. As they could cause cascades of failure if something goes wrong with a single Shard, and thus it has to automate and restrict. So they don't use if they can and offload the work on a comparatively much safer and more energy-efficient scale.
 
On Obsidian & Entities
I'll weigh in here since VS debates tend to get very messy.

Obsidian, as she is now, would lose to an Entity. She's too young, lacking both the raw power to outmatch some of their weapons and the knowledge to outsmart them.

However... That's not much different than saying that a newborn Entity would lose to Zion in combat. Zion, armed with a huge number of Cycles worth of data and refinement, is simply better equipped.

Obsidian's rate of growth far outstrips the Entities - both because she, personally, has more capacity for individual growth and because her abilities simply lend themselves to expansion more. (Due to its conceptual nature, magic has a truly insane potential for exploitation.)

While the Entities are better at processing raw data in massive quantities, Obsidian is much better at inferring from the data she does have - that is to say, she has her own creativity. What that means is... Assuming the same amount of data, Obsidian is likely to learn more from it because she forms connections the Entities do not.

To simplify - asking about Obsidian versus an Entity, as she is now, is like asking about a toddler versus an MMA fighter. One simply has had more time and training.

Look at the number of skills and traits Obsidian has picked up during her time on Remnant, during her time with Blake, and give her some time to grow up. The Obsidian in DIRECTIVE (which you can find in the Side story Index) is far, far further along.
 
I suppose I could see the argument that Obsidian could compared to a Newborn Entity (Shard-Cluster) flung off the explosions of a billion worlds, but the issue is that Obsidian lacks, to my awareness, the multiversal inhabitation and sheer comparative bulk, the latter maybe being a disadvantage depending on how big you envision the Entity requirement. Alongside the technical experience they should already carry.

But then again, it might also be an issue of timescales they operate on, considering one seeds worlds to harvest, and the other travels between galaxies/within them(?) to find planets with civilizations to harvest and experiment on. So they typically tend to spend huge investments of time, with the latter sparingly calculating new applications due to energy costs, and Obsidian is an anomaly due to it's life cycle failing.

Though somewhat amusingly both Species seem to process memories of their ancestors, with the Space-Whales (each of them) literally recalling the collective information they've found in the Cycles all the way back to their primordial beginnings. And it isn't really possible to clearly say how often their comparative Cycles survive potential failures, but it does seem that the Shards can at least independently achieve the ends of the Cycle.

Edit: I'll give Directive a read when I can to gage better later today.

Edit2: I'd imagine that the direct disconnect from the Network, not even the forced consolidation of Shards, would alert the Network Hub/Zion considering the degree of communication, presumed monitoring, and that forced severance between members. As I believe they should be still in reserve until deployed, but honestly there could a transitioning stage as well.

Only criticism would be the honorary Shard part, given a Shard is well a Shard until it's divided into not being a Shard, and maybe pinging the Network about the unknown ID, considering the likelihood of it being from Abaddon or derived from Eden/Cauldron, or even if it was one of its own group.
 
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The biggest thing to keep in mind is that Obsidian has an enormous home-field advantage when it comes to the esoteric and non-physical. The Entities do indeed have access to more physical dimensions - but Obsidian is multidimensional in terms of the astral, or Dream, or magical, or whatever words you choose to use to describe the concept.

If Obsidian gains access to the Shardspace, that's very nearly a game over - she has access to tools that subvert and manipulate the cognition of Shards (such as it is) that Entities have no resistance to.

Most people, when they talk about OCPs in Worm, are talking about things that are incredibly small-scale to the Entities. Relatively easy to manage - you wouldn't be particularly bothered if an ant started demonstrating ant-scale Force powers, would you? Obsidian is different. She's young, and smol, but she's on the same plane. Just not matured.

Give her a few billion or trillion years and you're likely to be looking at something That no longer has a physical body at all, but that exists as a purely magical being that lives in and subsists on Dreams and Time.

They're comparable, is my point.
 
The biggest thing to keep in mind is that Obsidian has an enormous home-field advantage when it comes to the esoteric and non-physical. The Entities do indeed have access to more physical dimensions - but Obsidian is multidimensional in terms of the astral, or Dream, or magical, or whatever words you choose to use to describe the concept.

If Obsidian gains access to the Shardspace, that's very nearly a game over - she has access to tools that subvert and manipulate the cognition of Shards (such as it is) that Entities have no resistance to.

Most people, when they talk about OCPs in Worm, are talking about things that are incredibly small-scale to the Entities. Relatively easy to manage - you wouldn't be particularly bothered if an ant started demonstrating ant-scale Force powers, would you? Obsidian is different. She's young, and smol, but she's on the same plane. Just not matured.

Give her a few billion or trillion years and you're likely to be looking at something That no longer has a physical body at all, but that exists as a purely magical being that lives in and subsists on Dreams and Time.

They're comparable, is my point.
I agree with the majority of that, barring the cognition bit. As it would be improbable that they never had developed powers or encountered other Hosts species that could manipulate cognition. Given the former is a common preference for representing Stranger effects, including telepathy, and it should at least be a known factor (given how many Cycles have passed) for the Entities that the Host impacts the Shard.

So they should have some sort of monitoring system in the event a Shard is compromised, or at least a means to recognize when things don't quite add up. As how it is presented in Directive, the forced severance would have to be noticed at somepoint, and it has implications that whatever thinker suite is operating in the background, regulating and dealing with the problems of the failing Cycle, should take notice and action over time.

Granted even without Directive, I suppose I could see magic bypassing whatever defenses against cognition attacks they have. But then it becomes more of a battle between how fast Obsidian can compromise and how fast/willing Zion is to devote resources to withstand and understand the principles of Magic. As while it has the same tool set as Eden, it doesn't necessarily have the same personality or innate inclination of abstraction, and it doesn't have everything operating at the Entity scale.

Beyond that, assuming you mean esoteric and nonphysical as magic and souls, they do utilize equally esoteric means to unapply and alter laws of Reality. Alongside shardspace itself being a combination of physicality and virtually, with who knows how many sub-spaces. But yeah, unless Obsidian outright attacked a Shard then there's little attention, barring unknown radiation and if anyone (Shard/Human) notices a lack of an active power, from Zion. Ziz might be another story, but they're massively less of a problem compared to Zion.
 
So they should have some sort of monitoring system in the event a Shard is compromised, or at least a means to recognize when things don't quite add up. As how it is presented in Directive, the forced severance would have to be noticed at somepoint, and it has implications that whatever thinker suite is operating in the background, regulating and dealing with the problems of the failing Cycle, should take notice and action over time.
That's just straight fanon. Thinker didn't even notice PTV betraying her until it was about to shank her in the throat. (She also had her organs in an expression that was vulnerable to a human knife to the throat? somehow?)
 
That's just straight fanon. Thinker didn't even notice PTV betraying her until it was about to shank her in the throat. (She also had her organs in an expression that was vulnerable to a human knife to the throat? somehow?)
Not Thinker as in Eden, thinker as in category, and PTV didn't expressly endorse that, or rather Tessa and the Doctor managed to work around it. From what I recall so long as ypu don't have Eden involved directly, can't do hit Eden in X area, but you could do hit X point in Y area without any reference to Eden.

Also it probably doesn't help that A, it was post massive crash landing, B, we don't know what Shards that Eden on hand could do, and C, it was meant more as if the Shard cooperated with/subverted by the Host/other Being over the Cycle/Entity.
 
Not Thinker as in Eden, thinker as in category, and PTV didn't expressly endorse that, or rather Tessa and the Doctor managed to work around it. From what I recall so long as ypu don't have Eden involved directly, can't do hit Eden in X area, but you could do hit X point in Y area without any reference to Eden.
PTV expressly did endorse that until Eden put the blocker on it, at which point contessa had to go get DM to finish the job. Before the blocker came down, PTV was all aboard the murder train to eden'sville.
 
That's just straight fanon. Thinker didn't even notice PTV betraying her until it was about to shank her in the throat. (She also had her organs in an expression that was vulnerable to a human knife to the throat? somehow?)
It was the spine/neck.

And IIRC what was vulnerable was putting her core consciousness into her avatar. Interrupted halfway trough, it likely left her mind incomplete on both sides.

And it only worked because she was horribly injured after her asleep at the wheel episode.
 
It was the spine/neck.

And IIRC what was vulnerable was putting her core consciousness into her avatar. Interrupted halfway trough, it likely left her mind incomplete on both sides.

And it only worked because she was horribly injured after her asleep at the wheel episode.
Yes, sure, all of that. Why is your avatar's spine/neck vulnerable to a knife. You're a crystal multidimensional worm thing, don't make your neck out of fleshy junk. Get some indestructible polymer.
 
It had just splatted onto a planet, you know. And yeah, Obsidian right now simply couldn't beat an Entity. They quite literally explode more planets than there are particles in the universe by several orders of magnitude when they are done with the cycle. To win would rely on hitting them with massive amounts of high conceptual bullshit before they learn. Because they *will* learn if exposed. That is their whole purpose.
 
Yes, sure, all of that. Why is your avatar's spine/neck vulnerable to a knife. You're a crystal multidimensional worm thing, don't make your neck out of fleshy junk. Get some indestructible polymer.
Part of that may be entity idiocy, the plan was to mimic humans, so they build a human-like body, and then layer other powers on top.

That is frankly plausible if we accept that contessa and DM where threats at all, and she couldnt just lash out with literally any power at the two essentially mundane humans. So apparently her abilities where 99% shut down there for the scene to make any sense.
 
It had just splatted onto a planet, you know. And yeah, Obsidian right now simply couldn't beat an Entity. They quite literally explode more planets than there are particles in the universe by several orders of magnitude when they are done with the cycle. To win would rely on hitting them with massive amounts of high conceptual bullshit before they learn. Because they *will* learn if exposed. That is their whole purpose.
That only works, because in complete contravension of physics, "dimensonally overlaping every instance of a planet onto itself" causes it to blow up, They aren't normally flying around with solar-system buster levels of firepower. You know, just contient-cracking.
 
Which again makes sense, having just splatted across several dimensionally separated planets. Not in the best of shape.

That only works, because in complete contravension of physics, "dimensonally overlaping every instance of a planet onto itself" causes it to blow up, They aren't normally flying around with solar-system buster levels of firepower. You know, just contient-cracking.
And if they decide to trigger that while Obsidian is *in* the planet? And they do literally eat star for fuel occasionally.
 
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