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Department of Starship Design (Trek-ish)
- Thread starter Mechanis
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
[X] Plan: The turrets will do the job.
- Location
- his hidden lair
In defense of the torpedo, its 2 power is literally a rounding error. The 5 gun T1 battery needs like ~14 spaces of alienwares and power plants to work. I agree they're not optimal, and clearly my speculation on the value of a resource cheap but space efficient weapon was incredibly premature.
The problem with torpedoes as things stand is that even if we get secondary computers opening up a lot of space and saving resources- that only makes guns even better by comparison. It seems like we really do just need proper Photon torpedoes.
Edit: or… to resurrect my currently dead pet project Plasma Torpedoes
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Mechanis
Confirmed Extremely Screwed
- Location
- Absconding with Alacrity
You may wish to consider that torpedoes are the only weapons that can be used at Warp Speed, if you don't have enough of a speed advantage to close to spitting distance and merge warp bubbles, or your opponent decides to slow down and do the same instead of just dropping out of warp entirely for some reason. Energy weapons are fairly useless when traveling at even low warp, since they need coherence and exiting the warp bubble smears them out over, potentially, light-years of area- not exactly a good thing for maintaining beam or packet coherence! A torpedo with a warp sustainer, meanwhile, can maintain a warp bubble if fired at warp (though they lack the power to breach the warp barrier independently) and their very high thrust-to-mass ratio (not to mention lack of concern for squishy crew) means that they can outpace any starship over short distances. Thus torpedoes are the weapons of choice for either actor in a stern chase; the pursued ship would fire astern, while the pursuer would reply with fore tubes- in both cases, as much to force the other to dodge (thereby losing straight-line speed) as to actually inflict damage.
(In theory you could do something similar with old fashioned ballistic weapons, but then you're talking about cramming a fusion reactor, a warp coil, and presumably some kind of explosive payload into a cannon shell and most people just go "we could do that for many quataloos, or spend slightly more quataloos for a guided missile that does the same thing, and also has a deflector shield, and hey there's enough room in the casing to stick various sensor/ROV widgets in there when you aren't using them to blow stuff up.")
Edit: on consideration, this is important enough to warrent a "How Stuff Works" write-up, for the future. I have plans after all, well into the future.
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- Location
- USA
Also of note, unless tech changes DRASTICALLY, you can typically keep using a torpedo tube for new missiles.
The NX-01 needed no major modification in the shift from spatial to proton torpedoes, ditto Voyager Transphasics and DS9 Quantums.
As long as it fits in the same dimensions, we can swap out warheads on our torpedoes as we get new models.
The NX-01 needed no major modification in the shift from spatial to proton torpedoes, ditto Voyager Transphasics and DS9 Quantums.
As long as it fits in the same dimensions, we can swap out warheads on our torpedoes as we get new models.
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- Location
- Canada
I like plasma, Im down for getting ourselves the technology.Edit: or… to resurrect my currently dead pet project Plasma Torpedoes
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Okay. So I'm rewriting my response because the text I got when I get reply was different then what was showing in your post, and changed again when I refreshed to see what was going on.
The QM post that arrived while I was typing this about them being usable at warp speed does give them some more value. The big problem is that we are really, really tapped out on space. I could see putting 1 fore and 1 aft instead, but I can't see a single torpedo launcher actually discouraging something that we couldn't just drop out of warp for a moment and blap instantly.
My bringing up the T1 battery is that we are going to be mounting at least one facing the rear, and probably 2-3. Their potential more then makes up for the torps.In defense of the torpedo, its 2 power is literally a rounding error. The 5 gun T1 battery needs like ~14 spaces of alienwares and power plants to work. I agree they're not optimal, and clearly my speculation on the value of a resource cheap but space efficient weapon was incredibly premature.
The problem with torpedoes as things stand is that even if we get secondary computers opening up a lot of space and saving resources- that only makes guns even better by comparison. It seems like we really do just need proper Photon torpedoes.
Edit: or… to resurrect my currently dead pet project Plasma Torpedoes
The QM post that arrived while I was typing this about them being usable at warp speed does give them some more value. The big problem is that we are really, really tapped out on space. I could see putting 1 fore and 1 aft instead, but I can't see a single torpedo launcher actually discouraging something that we couldn't just drop out of warp for a moment and blap instantly.
We didn't even have an option to research some new torpedoes. By the time they come up I figure it will be time to give these ships a refit anyway. We might have a tech for it next turn, but the blue sky from this turn really doesn't scream 'torpedoes' to me. If there is an option and there are enough RP left to get them after better computers, Warp 5, and the power blue sky then I'd love to have better torps.
I've been talking about a light torp armament all along. It's just the ones we currently have are just kinda sad compared to our new guns. Any we do put anywhere are going to need to go in the 1 square wide areas not taken up by T1 mounts.
- Location
- his hidden lair
Maybe two stern torpedo tubes and four forward then. If not more. Jalinth's estimates for T1 coverage have always been rather high- and I haven't seen much mention of where he actually wants to put them for coverage, so I don't think it's unfair to lower his estimate to 40 T1s or so and generate roughly 30 space for us to use.
Even 45 T1s has one battery forward, one back, two on each flank and one on each radial. That seems plenty to me.
Even 45 T1s has one battery forward, one back, two on each flank and one on each radial. That seems plenty to me.
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Mechanis
Confirmed Extremely Screwed
- Location
- Absconding with Alacrity
Oh yes, that too. Granted certain types that use volitile exotics that don't like being Transported might require refitting some of the actual machinery in the torpedo room(s), but the actual holes in the hull, and various things like loading mechanisms and fire-control are largely interchangeable so long as the torpedoes don't drastically change dimensions. Notably, for example, when the Stellar Union went from Trans-Spacial Torpedoes to Photonics, the actual torpedos were about the same size, but not having to have all the security-slash-shielding for fissionables and just nuclear warheads in general (they're surprisingly delicate machines, for all their power, so you definitely don't want just anyone fiddling with them, radiation aside) meant they could fit more actual launchers in the same space.
Dumb idea: what if we made a plasma cannon that shot dumbfire plasma torepdos
[X] Plan The brave Guardian bravely ran away
Just in case anyone decides to decloak and counter-ambush us from behind!
Just in case anyone decides to decloak and counter-ambush us from behind!
- Location
- his hidden lair
Plasma torpedoes are just packets of plasma that can somehow still be guided- I'm not sure what distinction dumbfire plasma torps would even have from 'normal' plasma weapons.
The flip side of that is there's no mention of if plasma torpedoes could be fired at warp. They probably can't unless we can program a high energy plasma field to serve as its own warp coil- but hey, we're using said plasma field as its own guidance computer so who knows.
- Location
- Canada
I loved plasma weapons in star trek online, made very good use of it in my romulan character, not to mention just spamming plasma torpedoes to the point I had dozens of the things just constantly barraging a ships in a expanding cloud of ionized super heated gas nebula that also hurt more enemies who are to close so was perfect for handling swarm tactics from carriers, destroying other types of torpedoes that can be targeted and destroying deployed attacked satellites.
So Im so down for having plasma torpedoes cause its just a good idea.
So Im so down for having plasma torpedoes cause its just a good idea.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
[X] Plan The brave Guardian bravely ran away
-[X] Type 4a on dorsal hull at location 3
-[X] Type 4a on ventral hull at location 5
-[X] Type 4a on dorsal hull at location 3
-[X] Type 4a on ventral hull at location 5
Mechanis
Confirmed Extremely Screwed
- Location
- Absconding with Alacrity
Plasma Torpedoes cannot, in fact, be fired at warp speed- they explicitly trade that ability for higher power output and (functionally) unlimited ammunition. This being said, there isn't anything stopping someone from mounting a regular torpedo tube or two to cover that issue.
(Plasma Torpedoes also aren't magic; guidance wise; part of the increased bulk of a plasma torpedo launcher is the necessary field projectors to make your ball of very angry hydrogen chase what you're shooting at around.)
I was not aware of the torpedoes-at-warp thing! That's interesting, though I don't expect us to be running anyone down (and if we're chased, I think we'd prefer to drop warp and ready the main gun).
I am strongly in favor of at least a little bit of torpedo capacity, both for the small science/ utility boost, and as future-proofing against improved warhead tech.
I am strongly in favor of at least a little bit of torpedo capacity, both for the small science/ utility boost, and as future-proofing against improved warhead tech.
This is a good point. If we do pick up better torpedo tech, I expect it to be from salvage/reverse-engineering.
- Location
- his hidden lair
As for not having new torpedoes, I imagine because there both wasn't a perceived need or interest in better torpedoes. OOC we know the next step is an antimatter charge and a stronger warp field iirc- so we're interested in the technologies that make that possible anyways now: with Warp 5 covering both better warp tech and better fusion power plants.
The big thing with not having a forward torpedo array is if an enemy wants to cut and run the moment their shields drop we can't punish them with a Warp Pursuit. I don't disagree we're probably not as concerned being pursued as most others- because we also have the option of cloaking and hiding elsewhere in the system for one thing… but the enemy has an enormous advantage in disengaging if he can do so without fear of viable pursuit.
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Mechanis
Confirmed Extremely Screwed
- Location
- Absconding with Alacrity
As I mentioned in that post's edit, I'll be adding a section on combat at warp to the "How Stuff Works" post, because I realized that is fairly important information which might not be immediately obvious to people who are less into physics than me and therefore might not grasp immediately the implications of how the Warp Drive is described as working for this quest.
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
9 mounts instead of 10 should work reasonably well. The radials have the open slot forward, so I was thinking about putting the 10th one aft. With 7 gun batteries then 10 mount budget gets us 7 mounts. Which just cuts 1 out of each flank from your idea.
@Mechanis can you say if our idea of using 5 gun instead of 7 gun PD mounts to get more coverage an acceptable plan?
That is part of why having them forward and skipping the aft weapons seems like the call to me.
- Location
- Canada
I remember seeing in the star trek movie of the enterprise being knocked out of warp with energy weapons from the looks of it.
I figure why bother with torpedoes fired at warp when it seems energy weapons are better at it. Tho I guess if your trying to capture a ship you dont want to destroy it entirely so you use energy weapons, while if you want to destroy a ship a torpedo is what you want.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kJUCLNk-Ic
I figure why bother with torpedoes fired at warp when it seems energy weapons are better at it. Tho I guess if your trying to capture a ship you dont want to destroy it entirely so you use energy weapons, while if you want to destroy a ship a torpedo is what you want.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kJUCLNk-Ic
Mechanis
Confirmed Extremely Screwed
- Location
- Absconding with Alacrity
You will indeed have the option to mount PD batteries (or just batteries in general) at less than maximum value if they're especially large, yes. Particularly small weapons on large ships when there is potentially a great many in one place, as you generally want point defense weapons fairly spread out for more effective coverage and to minimize dead-zones in coverage.
- Location
- his hidden lair
This raises a point- if torpedoes can cross the warp field but energy weapons can't, would aft point defense be able to engage torpedoes as they entered our warp field? Presumably with reduced effectiveness but still. I'm assuming warp fields are generally significantly larger than the ship given how nacelles tend to be offset from the ship's center of mass.