- Location
- California
I suggest uplifting it as the leader of a globally unitary government.
Deep Red (Avatar: The Last Airbender)
- Thread starter kosm
- Start date
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
If the government remains as a dictatorship where the right to rule comes from overwhelming personal power, in what sense has the world been uplifted?
I think it's disingenuous in the extreme to state that all forms of dictatorship are inherently bad for the people (or, more accurately, worse than their former state).
And once again, I can't stress this enough: it's fictional
But beyond this, let's make this clear, so no one ever has to comment on it again -
Everyone here, regardless of their quest decisions, doesn't think that it's moral, so can we please, please, stop polluting a thread with a nonsensical debate
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- Location
- Ural, Russia, Earth
Public prosperity is one thing I'm doubtful about.
I agree that the techology leapt forward, even if it wasn't really an achievement of the war-time Fire Nation. Sozin had metal-hulled steam-powered ships in the beginning of the War already, and, apparently, most of late-war inventions were made by Mechanist, not the Fire Nations engineers. Still, his inventions were massively improved and mass produced by the Fire Nation.
Without doubt, the Fire Nation built the greatest military-industrial complex and the mightiest military in the world, and the higher strata connected to them received immense wealth.
But public prosperity?
Remember that river, from the Painted Lady? Soldiers that were protecting the factory went around in motorboats, while fishermens from the nearest village had only good old oared boats.
Which makes me think, does the Fire Nation even use its technological prowess for something other than war?
They have a massive tank fleet, but do they actually produce tractors and other agricultural machinery?
They managed to build a giant drill, but do they build railroads?
When I compare towns and villages of the Fire Nation with the ones of the Earth Kingdom, I see that they are actually very similar in terms of infrastructure development and living standarts.
Which bares a question: does the War actually bring prosperity to the Fire Nation, or does extorted wealth from the occupied land is spent only on war machine that extorts it?
On prosperity, it's DR canon that the majority of the fire nation homeland is railroaded and the prosperity generally reaches, again the majority.
In the series itself we see this; unlike the the EK, the FN despite 100 years of war is practically idyllic. You've got entire beach islands, for example, and the implication that while this one's the top destination for rich people, the ordinary people of the FN get holidays - and the notion of that compared to the feudal system of the rest of the world is rather jarring.
The technology they possess is astounding in every way. I'm completely unsurprised they're doing well, it's practically a mirror of historical European empires exploiting the world for prosperity.
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Tyran
Blatant Product Placement (pro bono)
And you also got dying fishing towns that are being killed off by pollution and the life quality issues of living under a paranoid monarchy.
Life in the Fire Nation is not idyllic.
And it doesn't help that the worse living conditions in the rest of the planet are in great part caused by the war, because burning and killing and slaving.
Whether or not most people in those European empires benefited from that prosperity depended on the political and economic institutions of those empires. In England where the absolutist ambitions of the monarchy had been stymied by Parliament, the political system became more pluralistic allowing a relatively broad section of the population to exploit the opportunities created by colonialism which lead to economic growth.
In Spain, the monarchy was stronger and the Spanish equivalent of Parliament, the Cortes, was weaker. The Spanish monarchy was able to capture a much larger swath of the benefits of colonization which made it even less constrained by the Cortes and more absolutist. When Spanish rulers wanted money, they could seize it directly rather than going through the Cortes to raise taxes and their use of that power actually lead to economic decline in the 1600s while England was growing.
Neither of these are perfect parallels, but the Fire Nation seems closer to Spain. If Ozai is allowed to continue consolidating power like he plans to with the merchant families, I would expect to Fire Nation to undergo economic decline.
- Location
- California
Come on people. Kosm has already asked us more than a few times to not use real world examples to justify our decisions.
RadiantPhoenix
Trudging up the Hill
- Location
- USA, Earth
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Has something changed since this post?
- Location
- California
I mean, if you want another stupid argument to continue, by all means.
Life in the Fire Nation for the majority is significantly better than the rest of the world. My comment was comparing the FN to the EK. Please do not misquote me.
Yeah, uh, I don't agree. Spain's problems were myriad, and i'd argue the single biggest reasons were actually getting pulverised, invaded and occupied multiple times.
Regardless, the economic prosperity is DR canon. I'm not arguing for it's existence, it is fact. I don't mean to cause an argument over it.
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Tyran
Blatant Product Placement (pro bono)
Significantly better? It is better than the South Pole, but well the Fire Nation pretty much genocided that part of the world. Meanwhile it doesn't seems better than the North Pole.
It is better than the lower ring of Ba Sing See, but I'm unsure if it is significantly better than the middle ring and definitely isn't better than the upper ring. And for the lower ring, part of the issue is the large flux of war refugees to which the Fire Nation is to blame.
And if we consider the FN colonies as part of the Fire Nation...
EK natives are basically second class citizens in the older colonies, while newer colonies have to deal with the Fire Nation slaving away the benders. And those are still the ones that got the better deal in comparison to the burned down towns.
The Fire Nation's war is one big attempt to make everyone's else suffer. And even within the FN towns got fucked over for the war.
And honestly nothing tells us their current prosperity is because of the war, very likely it is in spite of the war. I mean, it is telling that once the war was over, life quality and technology across the planet improved exponentially.
War is good for short term technological development, but actual prosperity requires peace and trade.
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My point was that Fire Nation's war and Colonization of the Earth Kingdom probably doesn't benefit the average citizen and could possibly even hurt average citizen because the FN has an absolutist government that is becoming more absolute which is similar to what happened in Spain in the 1600s.
A few things:
Korra is not canon.
Life is significantly harder, and requires much more work in a place like the arctic, compared to the warm climate we see in the FN.
The Upper Ring generally consists of the upper-class (clue's in the name) citizens and their servants/workers e.g Iroh. This is not a good cross-section of society. The vast majority is the lower-ring, and of course the rural parts.
The EK is currently a blasted ruin.
Meanwhile, the FN, by and large, entirely peaceful. We don't see any fighting, bandits, crime, and barely any guards when Aang and co are roaming around.
Also, yes, they're very prosperous before the war - more so than the other nations - but it is canon, like I have stated several times, from kosm for DR that the war increased the prosperity further.
I have just mentioned this in my reply to tyran, but I will say it again: it is canon, like I have stated several times, from kosm for DR that the war increased the prosperity further.
Okay? I'm not trying to argue with you.
Tyran
Blatant Product Placement (pro bono)
Korra may not be "canon" for DR, but you cannot talk about the real canon and ignore parts of it.
And yet still enjoy a high quality of life as far as we can see.
The middle ring, which should be the middle class, is also in general quite decent. Also most of what we saw of the FN was the upper class as we mostly followed the royal family or the Gaang when they visited Ember Island (which is an upper ring vacation spot). But as we saw with the fishing town, the Fire Nation still has a lower class. One that seems to be particularly getting fucked over by their own government.
And yes the FN is peaceful in comparison because it isn't a warzone, although it should still feel a considerable social pressure of sending a considerable part of its population to war.
Also that Kosm quote? I would like to read her actual wording.
Because while the Fire Nation has been stealing considerable resources from the Earth Kingdom and done massive advances in technology, we don't actually see those resources and technology trickle down to the civilians.
For example:
The FN has a massive fleet of steel hulled ships, yet even the royal ferry is a wooden ship powered by a sea creature.
Also all those steam tanks? Not a single steam car in civilian use.
In fact, as far as we can see FN steam and steel technology that defines their military? It is simply not existent in the FN civilian life, who technologically aren't that different from the other nations despite their far more technologically advanced military.
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I am talking about Deep Red. Therefore I am using what is canon for Deep Red. That is, Deep Red, the show, and whatever kosm says of anything else.
So I'm not ignoring anything.
We saw 1 place that was not doing great; the rest of the time we see a constant display of towns and villages that seem great. You can't just skip over those because they don't fit the narrative.
Yes, it's peaceful. That's the point.
Onto the use of technology: the ships they're using are insanely fast compared to normal ones. That would allow for easy travel, also, we have word of kosm that the islands are railroaded.
...and yeah, i'm not surprised about the lack of steam in the civilian population outside the cities? Did you think that rural civilians in the United Kingdom had stuff powered by steam?
Apart from, you know, mills, and factories? Whatever.
As per the quote, i'll ask @kosm for that since I don't think you'll accept that from me.
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RadiantPhoenix
Trudging up the Hill
- Location
- USA, Earth
- Pronouns
- She/Her
They do have steam-powered trains to match Ba Sing Se's Earthbending-powered trains, though:
Tyran
Blatant Product Placement (pro bono)
Ok, it is peaceful. So what? The rest of the world isn't peaceful because of the FN and I really doubt the Fire Nation is peaceful because of the war.
And yes we see fucked up towns in the EK. We also see them in the Fire Nation.
The Fire Nation was in technology and military already better than the rest of the world before the war (otherwise it would have been a very short war) but in what sense its civilian population was benefited by the war? Because with an increasingly oppressive government and the social pressure of war I don't see how the civilian population situation improved.
Ok thank you for sharing that.They do have steam-powered trains to match Ba Sing Se's Earthbending-powered trains, though:
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Trying to nail down what life is like in the Fire Nation is difficult from a storytelling perspective because it's not like I can be an expert on the economics or history of the ATLA world. I can give some of my thoughts here, but I'm open to questions/comments/etc if any of them seem questionable. This post turned pretty long and rambly and honestly I'm like pretty tired so I didn't proofread lol, so let me know if it doesn't make sense.
Firstly - the Fire Nation has become more prosperous over the past 100 years, in a sense. The acquisition of new territories and extraction of resources from them has greatly expanded its economy. Most of those gains, though, go into fueling the increasingly-massive war machine. Railroads have probably expanded considerably. I'd imagine the Fire Nation does use its technology to help with agriculture, and I'm guessing that some of that industry has probably migrated overseas to the colonies. There's probably been increasing urbanization and industrialization in the mainland. But it seemed like the Fire Nation already had things like steam transportation and public education in Sozin's time, so honestly there probably haven't been too many major improvements in the day-to-day life/wealth of your average hotman on the street. Wealthy families with investments in the war have probably had their wealth increase much more noticeably, and there probably have been/are a number of opportunities for average/poorer families to become landowners by participating in settler colonialism in parts of the Earth Kingdom.
The biggest losers in the Fire Nation over the past 100 years are probably the rural/agricultural/fishing settlements in the mainland, many of whom have probably had their livelihoods destroyed by pollution, privatization of land, and competition with larger-scale farming companies. The everyday working poor probably don't do especially great, either. I doubt they get like, regular holidays or great benefits. Maybe the professionals and business owners get to visit Ember Island, but I doubt the average factory worker does. In the middle of a perpetual war, I'm not sure there would be much incentive for the rulers to give their factory workers vacations, or to put up with any workers who demand them - or who demand anything else. So conditions and wages probably suck. The opportunities for advancement offered by settler colonialism and military service probably function as a pressure valve for the poor who get screwed over under these circumstances.
As for the colonies... in the oldest, most established colonies, life is probably pretty similar for settlers to life in the mainland. Life for the EK natives is probably sharply divided between a small colonial elite that's pretty well-off and ingratiated with the settlers' regime, and the majority of the native populace who probably work the lowest-paying jobs around, live in the worst neighborhoods, are subjected to the most legal injustice, etc. If you're poor and you're from an Earth Kingdom family, you'd be better off being poor in Omashu than in Yu Dao. Less-established colonies probably have similar issues but worse, plus more rebel activity. The newest conquests are under direct military rule when they're not razed to the ground. Nobody's having a good life in them.
If you're comparing the colonies to life in the Earth Kingdom, it depends on who you're making the comparison for. On average, Fire Nation settlers may be better off in Yu Dao than Earth Kingdom citizens are in Gaoling, but Earth Kingdom citizens are on average much better off in Gaoling than the descendants of Earth Kingdom citizens are in Yu Dao. This is, in large part, what it means to say the Fire Nation's prosperity has increased because of the war: the living standards and wealth of the people of the Fire Nation have been shored up through the acquisition of new lands and the exploitation of their resources and people. If Ozai captured Omashu and had resources spent on industrializing it, he wouldn't be doing that for the sake of improving the standard of living of the people of Omashu - his goal would be to use that technology to better extract wealth, primarily for the benefit of the Fire Nation ruling class/war machine.
Firstly - the Fire Nation has become more prosperous over the past 100 years, in a sense. The acquisition of new territories and extraction of resources from them has greatly expanded its economy. Most of those gains, though, go into fueling the increasingly-massive war machine. Railroads have probably expanded considerably. I'd imagine the Fire Nation does use its technology to help with agriculture, and I'm guessing that some of that industry has probably migrated overseas to the colonies. There's probably been increasing urbanization and industrialization in the mainland. But it seemed like the Fire Nation already had things like steam transportation and public education in Sozin's time, so honestly there probably haven't been too many major improvements in the day-to-day life/wealth of your average hotman on the street. Wealthy families with investments in the war have probably had their wealth increase much more noticeably, and there probably have been/are a number of opportunities for average/poorer families to become landowners by participating in settler colonialism in parts of the Earth Kingdom.
The biggest losers in the Fire Nation over the past 100 years are probably the rural/agricultural/fishing settlements in the mainland, many of whom have probably had their livelihoods destroyed by pollution, privatization of land, and competition with larger-scale farming companies. The everyday working poor probably don't do especially great, either. I doubt they get like, regular holidays or great benefits. Maybe the professionals and business owners get to visit Ember Island, but I doubt the average factory worker does. In the middle of a perpetual war, I'm not sure there would be much incentive for the rulers to give their factory workers vacations, or to put up with any workers who demand them - or who demand anything else. So conditions and wages probably suck. The opportunities for advancement offered by settler colonialism and military service probably function as a pressure valve for the poor who get screwed over under these circumstances.
As for the colonies... in the oldest, most established colonies, life is probably pretty similar for settlers to life in the mainland. Life for the EK natives is probably sharply divided between a small colonial elite that's pretty well-off and ingratiated with the settlers' regime, and the majority of the native populace who probably work the lowest-paying jobs around, live in the worst neighborhoods, are subjected to the most legal injustice, etc. If you're poor and you're from an Earth Kingdom family, you'd be better off being poor in Omashu than in Yu Dao. Less-established colonies probably have similar issues but worse, plus more rebel activity. The newest conquests are under direct military rule when they're not razed to the ground. Nobody's having a good life in them.
If you're comparing the colonies to life in the Earth Kingdom, it depends on who you're making the comparison for. On average, Fire Nation settlers may be better off in Yu Dao than Earth Kingdom citizens are in Gaoling, but Earth Kingdom citizens are on average much better off in Gaoling than the descendants of Earth Kingdom citizens are in Yu Dao. This is, in large part, what it means to say the Fire Nation's prosperity has increased because of the war: the living standards and wealth of the people of the Fire Nation have been shored up through the acquisition of new lands and the exploitation of their resources and people. If Ozai captured Omashu and had resources spent on industrializing it, he wouldn't be doing that for the sake of improving the standard of living of the people of Omashu - his goal would be to use that technology to better extract wealth, primarily for the benefit of the Fire Nation ruling class/war machine.
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
Just your average colonial exploitation, then, with the slight twist that without concentrated imperial peers to focus on, the Fire Nation is turning the colonial machine towards war with it's own former masters instead. It could easily be argued that on the qualities of life you can measure objectively (access to medicine, advanced services, productive labor and protection from local conflict), natives in Africa and the Americas had vastly improved lives when imperial colonies popped in, even as the subjective qualities of those lives became increasingly awful (discrimination, cultural suppression, the ubiquitously patronizing imperial attitude).
All in all, entirely believable from an economic and social standpoint. "Don't do me a favor if you can't shut up about it" is a pretty valid excuse for colonial unrest, especially when the person supposedly doing the favor has a reputation for literally burning down villages with no regard to who's left inside; it doesn't take much of a leap to think you might suddenly be 'not productive enough' to consider burning down, too.
Tyran
Blatant Product Placement (pro bono)
Thank you for your reply.
I would only like to comment that living conditions in industrial economies suck for the industrial worker.
This is part of the reason why in the Lord of the Rings Tolkien idealized rural life with the Hobbits in the Shire, while the military industrial complex is vilifed and represented by Mordor and Isengard.
So there is very likely a very large gap between the FN families that own the factories and their workers that waste their lives in them.
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- Location
- Turtle Island
- Pronouns
- They/Them
One of my favorite things about your writing in this story is how clearly it's grounded in a solid understanding of the workings of imperialism and colonialism. I can almost hear Fanon explaining exactly why this or that attempt to suppress insurrection among the Earth Kingdom colonies will fail... and it constantly shows in the self-delusions and ideological blind spots of the Fire Nation ruling class and colonial officials. (There's definitely a pun to be made somewhere about "the wretched of the Earth".)
- Location
- California
I wouldn't say their lives we're arguably better given the massive percentages of genocides that were committed against them.
RadiantPhoenix
Trudging up the Hill
- Location
- USA, Earth
- Pronouns
- She/Her
In the OTL Sozin's Comet, Ozai attempts to burn down the Earth continent, starting in the deepest, oldest colonies.
Listen. This is exactly specifically the sort of thing I'm trying to target when I keep telling people to stop the real-life examples. Countless people in the general public are taught to argue this, yes. It is nonetheless massively factually incorrect on every count, and immensely frustrating to hear bandied about. This isn't the place to have a detailed historical breakdown on the matter, but again I'm going to reiterate:
I do not want to hear anyone in this thread talking about how any real-life group benefited from being colonized. I don't care how educated you think your opinion is.