Deep Red (Avatar: The Last Airbender)

Akane doesn't, but we do, and I'm talking to you.

So your plan in-story is to say "Hey Mitsuko, s'all good. In 2 years my buddy aang'll show up, we can just chill"
???

If we are making plans for current action we have to take into account that we are not going to get votes that involve aang or the white lotus while we don't know they exist.

Stop changing the subject from this OOC info we don't and can't know.
 
So your plan in-story is to say "Hey Mitsuko, s'all good. In 2 years my buddy aang'll show up, we can just chill"
???

If we are making plans for current action we have to take into account that we are not going to get votes that involve aang or the white lotus while we don't know they exist.

Stop changing the subject from this OOC info we don't and can't know.
Stop being an obtuse dingbat.
The arguments I've heard so far, if taken at face value and uncontested, would suggest that the logical course of action is:
  1. Attempt to gain influence and reform internally for now, but avoid any obvious awful stuff beyond contributing to a conquest that is probably going to support two more years of depopulation.
  2. Lay the groundwork for escape if it becomes necessary.
  3. If Aang wakes up and we haven't had any major accomplishments from step 1, escape and switch to the Aang route.
All Akane needs to be doing is telling Mitsuko, "we might need to escape at some point.", and making preparations to soften that blow if and when it happens.
 
Stop being an obtuse dingbat.

All Akane needs to be doing is telling Mitsuko, "we might need to escape at some point.", and making preparations to soften that blow if and when it happens.


You may insult me, but that will not remove the problems raised. We cannot act on OOC info. It's not possible because of the quest's options.
You can certainly say to mitsuko to be prepared, but that still doesn't answer the questions of what do you intend to do afterward (get help from where, achieve akane's goals how?)

Which leads us back to why would you run away at all?
 
You may insult me, but that will not remove the problems raised. We cannot act on OOC info. It's not possible because of the quest's options.
You can certainly say to mitsuko to be prepared, but that still doesn't answer the questions of what do you intend to do afterward (get help from where, achieve akane's goals how?)

Which leads us back to why would you run away at all?
We can choose existing options based on OOC knowledge of likely outcomes, e.g.: choosing to run away to Iroh rather than burn Zuko, or choosing to escape rather than burn down orphanages, or whatever.

In other words: Akane doesn't need to have a plan for us to have a plan, she just needs to have a reason to consider the option. We don't have to be shooting from the hip just because Akane is.
 
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We can choose existing options based on OOC knowledge of likely outcomes, e.g.: choosing to run away to Iroh rather than burn Zuko, or choosing to escape rather than burn down orphanages, or whatever.

In other words: Akane doesn't need to have a plan for us to have a plan, she just needs to have a reason to consider the option. We don't have to be shooting from the hip just because Akane is.

Running to Iroh in that vote was a valid option. It was something Akane was capable of doing. Something she knew was an option. Let's imagine the internal argument - it would be weighing up the possibility with potential risk.

That is a completely difference scenario to Akane abandoning all plans to do what she wants - in your view, to depose ozai, reform the FN, etc.

If there was a vote to run away, what argument would Akane be having with herself to justify continuing the course or running away? It'd be almost impossible to achieve those aforementioned stated goals without the support of some of the FN with Akane's current knowledge. So why would she choose running away?

Aang and the White Lotus can't be used there for IC motivations.



EDIT: I wrote this concurrently with your reply. Sorry about that, I didn't actually mean to hit send the first time.


Now, running away for not wanting to do the bad things is totally valid and you can push that agenda all you like. But again, we have to question ourselves - why are you making that call?

Because you know that Aang exists. To you, here, it's not abandoning all your plans, because you know Aang exists, and you know there's a way out.

In my personal opinion, I don't like this. We're questing as Akane, and should be working with her motivations, and her knowledge.
 
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Running to Iroh in that vote was a valid option. It was something Akane was capable of doing. Something she knew was an option. Let's imagine the internal argument - it would be weighing up the possibility with potential risk.

That is a completely difference scenario to Akane abandoning all plans to do what she wants - in your view, to depose ozai, reform the FN, etc.

If there was a vote to run away, what argument would Akane be having with herself to justify continuing the course or running away? It'd be almost impossible to achieve those aforementioned stated goals without the support of some of the FN with Akane's current knowledge. So why would she choose running away?

Aang and the White Lotus can't be used there for IC motivations.
If you had read what I laid out, it would be obvious that the listed examples of motivations for running away are:
  1. Being ordered to do something unacceptable.
  2. Aang has already showed up and Akane has not met with notable success on her attempts at internal change.
 
If you had read what I laid out, it would be obvious that the listed examples of motivations for running away are:
  1. Being ordered to do something unacceptable.
  2. Aang has already showed up and Akane has not met with notable success on her attempts at internal change.

Yes, and the first of these, as I mentioned above but again apologise for it being an edit wrote alongside this post.

Now, running away for not wanting to do the bad things is totally valid and you can push that agenda all you like. But again, we have to question ourselves - why are you making that call?

Because you know that Aang exists. To you, here, it's not abandoning all your plans, because you know Aang exists, and you know there's a way out.

In my personal opinion, I don't like this. We're questing as Akane, and should be working with her motivations, and her knowledge.

2: Is reasonable as I already mentioned... many posts ago xD. I don't disagree with that, and it was many posts ago, so don't blame you at all for mentioning it again.
 
Aang and the White Lotus can't be used there for IC motivations.



EDIT: I wrote this concurrently with your reply. Sorry about that, I didn't actually mean to hit send the first time.


Now, running away for not wanting to do the bad things is totally valid and you can push that agenda all you like. But again, we have to question ourselves - why are you making that call?

Because you know that Aang exists. To you, here, it's not abandoning all your plans, because you know Aang exists, and you know there's a way out.

In my personal opinion, I don't like this. We're questing as Akane, and should be working with her motivations, and her knowledge.
Just to use a recent example, we chose to go after the resistance fighters based on the OOC knowledge of Jet's group.

Acting based on OOC information isn't remotely new to this quest, and trying to demand it now sounds like you're just making excuses to justify your pre-existing desire to continue to stick with Ozai's conquest even if he asks Akane to do something unacceptable again.
 
Just to use a recent example, we chose to go after the resistance fighters based on the OOC knowledge of Jet's group.

Acting based on OOC information isn't remotely new to this quest, and trying to demand it now sounds like you're just making excuses to justify your pre-existing desire to continue to stick with Ozai's conquest even if he asks Akane to do something unacceptable again.

On my own personal voting habits, I don't think I was there for the vote on going to Gaipan. I also voted for trying to overthrow ozai with iroh.

On the vote itself though, of which the results were:

You'll put down the rebels threatening Fire Nation civilians around Gaipan. (21)
You'll take on missions going behind enemy lines and assassinating Earth Kingdom officers and officials. (8)
You'll take on missions going behind enemy lines with special forces units, spreading mayhem and terror in the Earth Kingdom countryside. (0)
You'll join General Endo on the front lines as an officer under his tutelage. (0)

Three options are doing things (going around assassinating, causing destruction for civilians, and the third which is guranteed to involve destruction for civilians)

Which many, many people have reasons against.
I don't know exactly why people voted for this, but I can certainly see possible reasons. I don't think it's fair to say that all of them voted for it because of knowledge on jet, unless you have some evidence to the contrary, which you may do as I wasn't there.


Edit: Continued, the quest here is giving options based on info that Akane knows.

Things that Akane doesn't know at all can't be used as voting options.
 
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I don't know exactly why people voted for this, but I can certainly see possible reasons. I don't think it's fair to say that all of them voted for it because of knowledge on jet, unless you have some evidence to the contrary, which you may do as I wasn't there.
The discussion started in early February, when the options were revealed, and basically the whole conversation I was involved in was everyone going, "let's shut down Jet early, we don't like him and nothing better seems to be available."
 
The discussion started in early February, when the options were revealed, and basically the whole conversation I was involved in was everyone going, "let's shut down Jet early, we don't like him and nothing better seems to be available."

Okay.

Obviously like I said I don't know what happened around that time /shrug.

Anyway I feel like we are never going to agree on anything so we'll continue on discord if you wanna keep at it? I feel like we spammed a little too much on here.
 
Okay.

Obviously like I said I don't know what happened around that time /shrug.

Anyway I feel like we are never going to agree on anything so we'll continue on discord if you wanna keep at it? I feel like we spammed a little too much on here.
Why would we move the discussion to Discord? This is thread is about Deep Red, and it's a perfectly fine place to discuss Deep Red.
 
Something to keep in mind, once Akane arrives in the Earth Kingdom she will only have a little over a year before the Avatar awakens.

That's just not enough time to make any major head-roads in the military route.
 
Something to keep in mind, once Akane arrives in the Earth Kingdom she will only have a little over a year before the Avatar awakens.

That's just not enough time to make any major head-roads in the military route.
Aang awakens at the end of 99 AG, and it's currently 97. Two years.

Now, we're still probably not going to make significant progress on internal reform, because basically every route is really hard unless it uses Aang or the Solar Eclipse or some other "unfair" advantage to just straight up crush Ozai personally, but that's why we should be intending to leverage those things.
 
Something to keep in mind, once Akane arrives in the Earth Kingdom she will only have a little over a year before the Avatar awakens.

That's just not enough time to make any major head-roads in the military route.

Aang awakens at the end of 99 AG, and it's currently 97. Two years.

Now, we're still probably not going to make significant progress on internal reform, because basically every route is really hard unless it uses Aang or the Solar Eclipse or some other "unfair" advantage to just straight up crush Ozai personally, but that's why we should be intending to leverage those things.

Yeah, it's 2 years and a bit. Unsure on how much more than 2 years.

It's enough time to gain support. I don't see where people get this idea from. Kosm has not WoG that it's impossible. It will be hard, yes, but not impossible.

Any internal reform under ozai depends mostly on what we can achieve in terms of finding better solutions. Other than that, it's going to require deposing ozai, which requires support as mentioned earlier.
 
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Aang awakens at the end of 99 AG, and it's currently 97. Two years.

Now, we're still probably not going to make significant progress on internal reform, because basically every route is really hard unless it uses Aang or the Solar Eclipse or some other "unfair" advantage to just straight up crush Ozai personally, but that's why we should be intending to leverage those things.
Aang awakens in the middle of 99AG, and by the time Akane's ship arrives in the Earth Kingdom it will be sometime around the end of 97AG.

The ocean is big and 1800s era steamships are slow.
 
Aang awakens in the middle of 99AG, and by the time Akane's ship arrives in the Earth Kingdom it will be sometime around the end of 97AG.

The ocean is big and 1800s era steamships are slow.

If by 1800s steamships you mean 1897, then you're partially right. They're turbine powered, and these things are fast: Capable of keeping up with Appa, and that's a 100 year old ship that Zuko was given. In real life these ships are capable of a sustained 30 knots.

Aang awakens sometime in winter 99. We don't know the date in 97 that Akane's in right now, but there's at the very least 2 years there.
 
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It should be two years. Not much time has passed from Zuko's exile, we know that he was already searching fruitlessly for over two years before becoming desperate enough to try the Southern Water Tribe.
 
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It's enough time to gain support. I don't see where people get this idea from. Kosm has not WoG that it's impossible. It will be hard, yes, but not impossible.
There are ways that Akane could gain enough support to be politically relevant in the time remaining to her.

But the Military isn't one of them.

The easiest of these would be to marry either the governor of Yu Dao or his son and then basically take over general representation of the Firenation Colonies via that. More difficult would be to track down and secretly partner up with Jeong Jeong then using that to gain inroads with the White Lotus all the while playing politics in the various colony cities to convince the governors that she is the sane choice to Ozai's insanity. While the hardest would be going out and making a secret deal with the Earth Kingdom to end the war in exchange for their help overthrowing her father and the concession of the more long standing Fire Nation colonies.


If by 1800s steamships you mean 1897, then you're partially right. They're turbine powered, and these things are fast: Capable of keeping up with Appa, and that's a 100 year old ship that Zuko was given.
Zuko's ship wasn't capable of keeping up with Appa...

That's an actual plot point of the series and the reason he was always either loosing them or a couple days behind them...

Also I am not sure where you are getting the idea that they have turbines or that Zuko's ship was a hundred years old from.
 
The easiest of these would be to marry either the governor of Yu Dao or his son and then basically take over general representation of the Firenation Colonies via that. More difficult would be to track down and secretly partner up with Jeong Jeong then using that to gain inroads with the White Lotus all the while playing politics in the various colony cities to convince the governors that she is the sane choice to Ozai's insanity. While the hardest would be going out and making a secret deal with the Earth Kingdom to end the war in exchange for their help overthrowing her father and the concession of the more long standing Fire Nation colonies.
I like the Jeong Jeong idea. We might need to turn/ditch our minder first...
 
There are ways that Akane could gain enough support to be politically relevant in the time remaining to her.

But the Military isn't one of them.

The easiest of these would be to marry either the governor of Yu Dao or his son and then basically take over general representation of the Firenation Colonies via that. More difficult would be to track down and secretly partner up with Jeong Jeong then using that to gain inroads with the White Lotus all the while playing politics in the various colony cities to convince the governors that she is the sane choice to Ozai's insanity. While the hardest would be going out and making a secret deal with the Earth Kingdom to end the war in exchange for their help overthrowing her father and the concession of the more long standing Fire Nation colonies.

Don't see your point, tbh. Doing military things isn't going to monopolise every moment of our time, especially since the vote picked wasn't the front lines or behind enemy lines, it's in the occupied territory/colonies. There will be chances to network with military and non-military alike, I am sure.
Pretty much everything you mentioned is in-scope, aside from EK - what possible ability do they have to help her anyway, + they will immediately betray Akane to try and see the FN hurt itself. Also, I don't think we're allowed to marry without Ozai's approval.
JJ is also out since we don't know about the WL.


Zuko's ship wasn't capable of keeping up with Appa...

That's an actual plot point of the series and the reason he was always either loosing them or a couple days behind them...

Also I am not sure where you are getting the idea that they have turbines or that Zuko's ship was a hundred years old from.

Zuko chased and caught up with Appa, most notably in winter solstice part II, where he arrives at hei bai's village, demands info from the people there, and then catches up with and fires on them. So... yes, I think that ship is capable of keeping up with Appa.

They have propellors; Propellors only became in-use generally by the latter half of the 19th century but it wasn't until turbines were invented and deployed on ships that we see the speeds that the FN navy can achieve. Like, obviously I have no direct evidence - no one says they're turbines in-show - but we know they're capable of reaching high speed, so there's no other option but turbines. /shrug

Zuko's ship is, according to the canon, 100 years old. Also, it's the same design and make as the 100 year old ship lodged in the ice we see in the first episode.
 
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