Dark Prince of Camelot
- Thread starter Gally
- Start date
- Original
i think we should include something like
[] do you currently rule over a significant population and inflict your petty murderous squabbles on them? no? then i have no quarrel with you, the people i fought against are dead and you simply inheriting their mantle does not mean you are them.
In the votes because she is being stupid as shit with her reasoning that we'd try and kill them.
[] do you currently rule over a significant population and inflict your petty murderous squabbles on them? no? then i have no quarrel with you, the people i fought against are dead and you simply inheriting their mantle does not mean you are them.
In the votes because she is being stupid as shit with her reasoning that we'd try and kill them.
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Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Honestly, it's starting to look like we're walking head first into getting killed, that because we wouldn't feed into their neuroses that they'll choose to kill us instead.
And I guess that's fine, if the plot is and always was "These people can never, ever change, and once their craziness is triggered, they'll knowingly play their parts without an ounce of self-awareness."
It's depressing, but Arthurian Myth always was a depressing thing with how it ended. I'd much rather get executed for trying to do the right thing than try to appease crazy people who are willing to kill someone in cold blood for not wanting to play into their hands.
From a literary standpoint anyway. It'll still suck to see the quest have a BAD END, but frankly, I'd rather a story like that end on a high point than to just knuckle under until the next time they get triggered and won't accept appeasement the next time. Maybe they'll actually gain a bit of self awareness when the arthurian insanity leaves them and they realize that they just executed someone for not enabling their respective insanities.
Then again, the one thing that seems clear here is that these people are chronically incapable of self-reflection, leading to repeating the same beats over and over and over again.
On that topic, if we're going full utility monster, the correct choice is.
"Don't. Just submit and do what she wants and it'll limit the damage, opposing such a creature will only cause suffering."
The whole "You can't oppose the villain because they're holding everyone under their aegis hostage" problem. And if we're going full utility monster, it's permissible to permit a great evil to work unchecked if the costs of removing it exceed the rewards of doing so.
And I guess that's fine, if the plot is and always was "These people can never, ever change, and once their craziness is triggered, they'll knowingly play their parts without an ounce of self-awareness."
It's depressing, but Arthurian Myth always was a depressing thing with how it ended. I'd much rather get executed for trying to do the right thing than try to appease crazy people who are willing to kill someone in cold blood for not wanting to play into their hands.
From a literary standpoint anyway. It'll still suck to see the quest have a BAD END, but frankly, I'd rather a story like that end on a high point than to just knuckle under until the next time they get triggered and won't accept appeasement the next time. Maybe they'll actually gain a bit of self awareness when the arthurian insanity leaves them and they realize that they just executed someone for not enabling their respective insanities.
Then again, the one thing that seems clear here is that these people are chronically incapable of self-reflection, leading to repeating the same beats over and over and over again.
On that topic, if we're going full utility monster, the correct choice is.
"Don't. Just submit and do what she wants and it'll limit the damage, opposing such a creature will only cause suffering."
The whole "You can't oppose the villain because they're holding everyone under their aegis hostage" problem. And if we're going full utility monster, it's permissible to permit a great evil to work unchecked if the costs of removing it exceed the rewards of doing so.
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- Location
- USA
...I actually think we might be able to convince her.
There are two things we want to work on here. Her reason she wants to kill us (if we aren't dead we'd kill them -- probably as an enemy) and the motivation of Mordred.
She wants to kill us because we're gonna end up killing them in her mind. I think that's because we're an enemy and we should be able to convince her of that, but most of the ways of doing that are ones where we might convince her we'd screw them over by Halping*. The main one I'm thinking of is us making the deal forGala's Gemma's life in the dream world. She might care about the problems that probably caused, but fuck it, we didn't (and really still don't) have context for how bad of an idea that was.
The second is Mordred's reasoning. Which is basically where we throw the fact that it was our goal to prevent our mother from becoming Immortal, but she was needed to deal with the forces of darkness. So we aimed for a mutual kill between the two sides. The reincarnation cycle was never something we wanted them to suffer, but we did succeed in our basic goal. I think Mordred never thought he would be better, but that his mother no longer could rule. Or rather, she could rule as a mortal (or the only semi-divine being she was) and so any risk of her not someday dying/leaving the throne was too great too allow.
...Which feeds into her mindset of "Mordred must die for us to be safe". Huh.
Maybe play up a bit of guilt and a "take everything with us" kind of suicide? I don't think Mordred really planned on surviving his mother. He held on with the idea that things would be better after, but he was learned to have been able to make a plan for after and wise enough to know to make his plans, so the lack of them is pretty telling.
Mordred never *really* planned on surviving to rule
...which might still play into her desire to kill us if we don't phrase it properly.
*Yes I do mean Halp instead of help.
There are two things we want to work on here. Her reason she wants to kill us (if we aren't dead we'd kill them -- probably as an enemy) and the motivation of Mordred.
She wants to kill us because we're gonna end up killing them in her mind. I think that's because we're an enemy and we should be able to convince her of that, but most of the ways of doing that are ones where we might convince her we'd screw them over by Halping*. The main one I'm thinking of is us making the deal for
The second is Mordred's reasoning. Which is basically where we throw the fact that it was our goal to prevent our mother from becoming Immortal, but she was needed to deal with the forces of darkness. So we aimed for a mutual kill between the two sides. The reincarnation cycle was never something we wanted them to suffer, but we did succeed in our basic goal. I think Mordred never thought he would be better, but that his mother no longer could rule. Or rather, she could rule as a mortal (or the only semi-divine being she was) and so any risk of her not someday dying/leaving the throne was too great too allow.
...Which feeds into her mindset of "Mordred must die for us to be safe". Huh.
Maybe play up a bit of guilt and a "take everything with us" kind of suicide? I don't think Mordred really planned on surviving his mother. He held on with the idea that things would be better after, but he was learned to have been able to make a plan for after and wise enough to know to make his plans, so the lack of them is pretty telling.
Mordred never *really* planned on surviving to rule
...which might still play into her desire to kill us if we don't phrase it properly.
*Yes I do mean Halp instead of help.
- Location
- St. Petersburg
This... isn't what I expected. Not from Lorelei, and not from Bailey. Huh.
If you are going to live, you are going to live side by side with these people whom you have not had a chance to really know.
Besides, we've been waffling on what Mordred thinks and feels about his past and himself for far too long. Talking with them brings the fragments of our thoughts in order, and defines our position on what went wrong and, hopefully, what we can do differently to avoid it again.
What's Bailey's neurosis? What do you think she wants to hear, or us to do?
The entirety of the last arc allowed us to get insights into these people. See what gnaws at them, see their reasons for opposing us, or even their own. And not through the third party like Annabelle either. Sometimes they aren't what we think they are.
If you are going to live, you are going to live side by side with these people whom you have not had a chance to really know.
Besides, we've been waffling on what Mordred thinks and feels about his past and himself for far too long. Talking with them brings the fragments of our thoughts in order, and defines our position on what went wrong and, hopefully, what we can do differently to avoid it again.
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- Location
- Hong Kong
Actually, can we combine that point with the others somehow? Like this:
[] Spoken like someone raised in a world which isn't ruled over by an immortal god-queen. The problem wasn't that she made mistakes and would have been immortal, it was that her immortality would have locked her permanently in that state where she thought that atrocity was a good idea. Imagine a world where the immortal god-queen couldn't not repeat those mistakes over and over.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Paranoia.
"He may become a threat, ergo, he must be destroyed". Annabelle straight up told us that she was absolutely, 100% going to vote to kill us, and nothing we could say or do could convince her otherwise.
She even hinted at it here. "I'm pretty good at figuring people out." That's not something somebody says with a straight face unless they're omnipotent. Because people are complicated, and anyone who's actually good at it isn't going to claim that they're good at figuring people out. The only way you can say it with a straight face is if you limit it to defining people as "Friend, Enemy, or Irrelevant." We're not irrelevant, and we're not a Friend, ergo, we are an Enemy, and must be destroyed. She's not actually trying to be convinced here, so much as she's trying to fish for something else to make up for the complex reality to make it black and white again, and thus, simple. I suspect whatever we say, she's going to try to flip it into "Ahah! So you were the bad guy after all!" And if we don't give her what she wants, she's just going to assume we're lying because she can't possibly be wrong. So she's trying to re contextualize the current information with her worldview, and will reject any statement that fails to fit into it as a deception. The "best" choice here in terms of not having her flip out and double down on her desire to destroy us would be giving her a simple answer that fits her viewpoint of us being the Bad Guy--though that's obviously counterproductive too.
Ginny's was wrath, she wants people to pay for what they've done. She'll accept grovelling and submission, but if she can't get that, she'll go with blood instead. Oh sure, she dresses it up as concern, but what she really wants is for people who wrong her and hers to suffer. She knows we like Gemma, and we're trying to help her--even if we're a fuckup about it, and that's why we need to be removed from her. Hence why her response to "What if that doesn't work" is "Then I'll make it work", and changing the subject aggressively when pressed on that topic. Not actually providing any concrete solutions, because that's not the important thing to her right now--she doesn't care about Gemma at the moment except in the abstract as the "Thing of hers that was hurt by your presence." It's all about grinding the boot in so she can feel like she's Done Something, and since we wouldn't submit, she'll destroy.
What it boils down to is that we're not having an honest debate here. We're dealing with genuinely, seriously mentally ill people who have all been triggered Just give honest reactions as best as you can and let them kill us accordingly, because nobody here has the qualifications to be the therapist for people when they don't want to be helped--and in fact, are arguably incapable of recognizing that they're fucked up in the head--as we just saw from Matthew's reaction when we called him out for it.
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- Location
- USA
I don't think it was ever mentioned that our mother was going to become Immortal if we didn't do anything? That's significant information that they don't know.
Also:
Holy fucking hell. That's probably not on Earth. The total area of the US (all of it, not just the Continental 48) is like 9.8 million km2. Where the fuck was Camelot?
...Was it in the Sahara? Or rather, did we use Hellfire on what is now the Sahara? The sizes match up pretty nicely after all with the Sahara being about 9.2 million km2. It's also the only desert on Earth that has the right size (the smaller ones are way too small, and the only bigger ones are the arctic and the antarctic). That's probably the only place it could be if it was on earth.
Why bother? Nothing we say will matter.
We're unlikely to live anyway, and even if we are, it won't be because of Bailey because she's just said she's going to want to kill us.
So if we're going to die, I don't really see why we should waste time on this would-be murderer.
If we want to fix up Mordred we might as well just seek out some professional help, instead of letting these self-justifying teens waste our time, should we somehow survive.
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FriedIce
The Authentic Fake
- Location
- Hyperreality
"When a villain holds someone hostage, do you just let them leave?"
Because I bet Bailey doesn't. Her worldview is way too heavy on 'they may become a threat'. She'd kill them and eat the civilian loss. That's why I'm trying to cast Arturia as a villain holding people hostage, because it feeds into Bailey's neuroses and might get her to recatagorise us as 'ally'.
Edit: Also, after this arc is over my vote is for getting the fuck out of town and dealing with our own problems. Give Gemma our phone number or something. I hear Brazil is nice at this time of year.
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Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
She'll never recategorize us as an "Ally", because she's largely incapable of changing her mind--at least in her current state. Once she's moved someone from inconsequential, you're an ally until she has reason to classify you as an Enemy, and once an Enemy, forever an Enemy.
At best, she might go "Okay, that's a fair point, but I'm still going to kill you." It's not a bad argument though--at least she might be more willing to go "I've got other fish to fry first".
Alternately, the Artura figure is just axiomatically impossible for the Knights that are reincarnating (Which seems to be because they were in her inner circle at least) to recognize as someone opposed to them. So just going "Do you let a villain take hostages" would run face first into "But she's not a villain unless you stand against her, ergo, you are a threat".
But, as I said, it's not actually a bad angle to take--it's something she'd at least comprehend given her neuroses. The only problem is... That that argument is also an argument against leaving us alive in her book--and she'd be more inclined in this case to go against the consensus in the unlikely event that we get a winning vote and just kill us herself and eat the consequences.
After all. We already said it in that case--why let evil carry on just because the cost of removing it is too great?
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- Location
- St. Petersburg
That's not making any sense. 'The best choice to not make her double down and kill us is to confirm her viewpoint which makes her want to kill us'. What makes the choice the best then? Or even the 'best'?
Why not answer her question honestly and give her a chance to figure us out regardless of whether she takes it or not? I am curious what Mordred thinks about it myself. I see the attempts to answer, and quite a few amount to 'our mother was going to be an immortal, and thus would make those mistakes for eternity, and it would make her commit atrocities for eternity'.
Implying that 'at least we'd only do it once' was the better of the two.
But that is objectively false... or at least, misleading. The atrocity was Artura's reaction to a once-in-a-century crisis. With the civil war concluded, there was no longer a reason to employ those methods. On the other hand, we have visited a second crisis on the nation which finally broke its back. How different would it be, anyway, to have a string of replaceable leaders who would respond to crises with crimes of their own to solve them? What does it matter if the leader is transient if the logic behind their actions stays the same? And we have been led by that very same logic that drove Artura to commit atrocity against her people.
Do you think that it is Bailey's fault, or some kind of mental illness, that an answer like that wouldn't satisfy her?
What did we offer Camelot but a choice between a new tyrant/criminal, and its total destruction? And if we didn't, what did we fight our mother for?
I think it's important that we answer that question for ourselves before we start pinning the blame on others for misuderstanding.
That's a defeatist attitude. I don't get where this 'we are going to die' comes from. We made our bets on Matthew, Gavin and Piper. Matthew went... about as expected. Annabelle told us he wanted our knowledge, but now we can see what he intends to use it for.
Nothing has changed short-term. We knew Ginny and Bailey would be against us. Now we know why that is. Even if we can't convince them here, it's not like their minds are set for the rest of their lives.
And before we even try to 'fix' Mordred, it would be nice if he acknowledged to himself what exactly is it that he needs fixed.
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Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Because there is no good answer here? Annabelle straight up told us that this girl is implacable, and nothing will convince her not to want to kill us.
It's a characterization issue for Mordred. That's been the entire point of this story arc. Is he someone who adapts to circumstances? Is he a decent person at heart who's constantly stuck in impossible situations that no good answer exists for? Is he a liar who'll say whatever he needs to in order to get out of a problem? At what point is he willing to throw aside principles for survival?
And if it turns out that running someone who's genuinely trying his best but just can't get it to follow through because he'll inevitably end up in an impossible situation where he has to choose between several Bad Decisions leads to him getting killed? I'd consider that a good ending to the story, even if it'll probably be a Bad Ending for the setting at large.
Because if the reward for trying to be better is an uncaring execution by crazy people playacting the roles of the long-dead, then let them have a Bad Ending. I'm not so compassionate that I can't recognize a lost cause.
It's a characterization issue for Mordred. That's been the entire point of this story arc. Is he someone who adapts to circumstances? Is he a decent person at heart who's constantly stuck in impossible situations that no good answer exists for? Is he a liar who'll say whatever he needs to in order to get out of a problem? At what point is he willing to throw aside principles for survival?
And if it turns out that running someone who's genuinely trying his best but just can't get it to follow through because he'll inevitably end up in an impossible situation where he has to choose between several Bad Decisions leads to him getting killed? I'd consider that a good ending to the story, even if it'll probably be a Bad Ending for the setting at large.
Because if the reward for trying to be better is an uncaring execution by crazy people playacting the roles of the long-dead, then let them have a Bad Ending. I'm not so compassionate that I can't recognize a lost cause.
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Assuming we survive (which I don't think we will), I'd recommend Hawaii.
We can go there, relax and work on our tan, while still getting to meet a professional therapist if we want Mordred to get better.
Usernames
Merc gonna merc ya
Honestly either we die or Morgan appears out of nowhere to save our lives.
Either way, it be best to cut off all connections with the crew. Hopefully Mordred be DONE with this prince bullshit and be at peace.
Oh right. that deal we made with the girl. I guess we can work with the us government for a bit before disappearing. Before we get executed, we might as well tell the crew about the whole ladies of the lake issue happening nationwide.
Either way, it be best to cut off all connections with the crew. Hopefully Mordred be DONE with this prince bullshit and be at peace.
Oh right. that deal we made with the girl. I guess we can work with the us government for a bit before disappearing. Before we get executed, we might as well tell the crew about the whole ladies of the lake issue happening nationwide.
Then we should stop bothering with talking to Bailey.
Just tell her to fuck off and then we can have an internal monologue or something if people really want Mordred to self-reflect (bonus, it'd be without Bailey eating screentime before she votes to murder us).
As for them not being set for life?
I doubt that's true, I think Alectai has a very good point in that Bailey's classified us as Enemy and won't allow herself to change opinion.
And even if it was, I don't think we can manage to bond with people who'd vote "we should murder this guy".
Like, yes, you don't like Mordred (or at least you're heavily in favor of this group) but we're playing as him and he's got issues that would surely stop him from getting all that close to them after the murder vote was done, assuming we survived.
Then let's set aside time to talk with a professional instead of dealing with a would-be murderer.
Eh.
Do you really think they'd believe us?
As for government, well, if they set us up in hawaii and away from this group, while also paying for some top-grade therapy, sure, I could go for working with them.
Usernames
Merc gonna merc ya
That never ever gonna work.
The actual therapy given by the us government? No. I don't trust anyone from the government not to use that against us.
Can Mordred even trust a therapist? or that said info be used against him by other people if they find out?
Finally it doesn't matter if they believe us or not, we just tell them to ask the girl personally. We give them our phone and that it.
The actual therapy given by the us government? No. I don't trust anyone from the government not to use that against us.
Can Mordred even trust a therapist? or that said info be used against him by other people if they find out?
Finally it doesn't matter if they believe us or not, we just tell them to ask the girl personally. We give them our phone and that it.
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- Location
- St. Petersburg
Why? Annabelle's reception wasn't any warmer the first time we talked to her. Now she is about the only one who backs us in that group.
We are playing as Mordred, yes. It was us, the players, who voted to reveal our identity when Annabelle's Heraldry was shattered and she was facing a permanent injury. Why did we get involved, knowing quite well what would follow?
What will change after the vote is done?
Mordred likes these people. Some of them more than others, but they come as a package deal, and he admits to liking the Breakfast Club. He wants to help them, or at the very least undo the harm he did. It's not like Bailey's attitude changes anything about that.
I would rather not make it harder on ourselves to do what we set out to do.
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Damn, ok, that's a point.
Didn't think of that, sorry, the US government totally would set up a profile on Mordred for how best to manipulate and control us.
Would rather not give them all our phone number.
- Location
- Somewhere
I think when Bailey says this she's talking about her heraldry. We know that heraldries can allow you to do other things besides fight, we had the option to be able to tell when people lie to us. Bercilia was known as the "Inquistor In Green" and it's very likely her heraldry allows her to read people's intentions to an extent. As you said people are not always that simple, but in fairness, that doesn't really matter in at Medieval Courts where laws are much more black and white. Doesn't mean she doesn't have some neurosis, but it also doesn't mean she's wrong here.
I don't know, maybe I'm just not as pessimistic about this situation as everyone else. I'm not sure what the answer is here, but I don't think Bailey is as clear cut as that. I think she wants to be because that's what her flashes of the past and her powers tell her she should be, but that doesn't mean she can't change. Nothing about this conversation read like she's convinced of anything, more that she thinks she should be and so she's clinging to what's comfortable.
Well, Bailey and the other one will have voted to have us murdered, looking us right in the eyes all while doing so.
It is not human to be able to get along and think others are great people after they've done something like that.
Even if it was, even if Mordred is somehow secretly a saint to be able to just treat that as a non-issue?
It'd still be there on their part.
If you want Mordred to rethink his acts then write in something that has an update about that without having to waste time on Bailey.
Like self-reflection or something.
We were told she's going to vote to murder us in the advice before this whole mess started.
Trying to flip her is pointless.
The only reason I didn't point this out last update was because that at least was talking about the situation of Gemma, but this one doesn't do that.
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- Location
- Somewhere
Because I think your wrong about Bailey. I get where your coming, but I just think it's more complicated then that. A lot of times people cling to ideals they've always held to in difficult situations, even if they think they might be wrong. Sometimes they just need an excuse to change their mind. I don't know if Mordred can do that, but I don't think it hurts anything to try. It's easy to throw stones at the knights, but it's not like anyone's clean here. The idea of change is so thematically linked to this quest. Mordred isn't the same person he was when he rebelled against Camelot. It would be unfair to the Knights to assume they can't change as well.
FriedIce
The Authentic Fake
- Location
- Hyperreality
If every century you destroy an area as large as the Sahara into wasteland soon there won't be any land left on earth.
That's a peice of maths Bailey should be able to understand. Arturia had to fall. Because if she didn't she would have destroyed the world inch by inch so she could stay it's immortal god queen.
It's a dangerous play because it basically recasts everyone she knows as villains, but out of all of them I think Bailey might be the one who would understand - because, not despite, of her neurosis.