Wasn't she already in the kill us camp? So it doesn't really matter too much there. We're probably gonna die as things stand
Well she was in the kill Morder camp but i guess seeing our past and what makes him think. Is making her actually think about it instead of the nope just kill him already. Theres still hope of us surviving though.
 
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Oh my god. That is such a teenager thing to say that it's painful.

"It's not my fault if she comes to me and I don't push her away, right?" No. Just no. That's the entire point of what she's saying to us right now.

[X] We don't have many, if any, options. She has already shown that she can and will leave the city with ease in order to find somewhere or someone to cope with. Don't say you can keep her from doing that either, you'll just end up stifling her if you somehow do watch her that much somehow and/or she'll successfully slip away somewhen.
-[X] It's also lose/lose from where I'm looking at this from. If I push her away and keep her away then she'll go elsewhere and be hurting from me pushing her away on top of that. If I don't then I'll likely end up... poisoning her even when I'm doing everything I can not to.
--[X] So tell me, since I definitely appear to be my mother's son with all these good intentions I have, what do we do? Because I can tell you now, unless it's Gemma who chooses to not see me, then this conversation is pointless. She'll find a way to self-destruct with or without me until she makes the choice to stop.

Most commonly seen in alcoholics, but... You just can't stop someone from self-destructing until they decide to stop. You just... can't.

Gemma's fairly textbook on that really. Let's all build behind a facade and then just...

God, that took a solid fucking hour to put together. Also, PTSD ho! Or something. *Shrug*

Good intentions and hell seems very fitting considering Lorelei's comment on being our mother's son and... well, everything that happened.
 
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the main thing here is that mordred loves who gemma's soul WAS, and the fact that she was reincarnated into someone else..... well its fucking with mordreds head.
its would never have been a good idea to get into a relationship in the first place, given the power disbalence and the massive age gap.
 
the main thing here is that mordred loves who gemma's soul WAS, and the fact that she was reincarnated into someone else..... well its fucking with mordreds head.
its would never have been a good idea to get into a relationship in the first place, given the power disbalence and the massive age gap.
Kind of yeah. It's a bit more than that because it's also a case of there being enough similarities as for him to be comfortable with her, but also there being enough differences as for him to be comfortable with her.

Do remember he killed Gala with his own two hands. Hell, he killed Gemma too now, although I get the feeling she never told anyone about that part.

And no one but him even knows the Gala one happened I think.
 
It moments like this that I wish we just choose the goddamn hero route but still be the jaded Mordred of now.

So much bullshit could have been avoided.
 
It moments like this that I wish we just choose the goddamn hero route but still be the jaded Mordred of now.

So much bullshit could have been avoided.
The ability to pull the "I was Brainwashed and Crazy" card would have been very useful for an excuse of the unsavory acts we did Anyways this is the better option for me.

[X] We don't have many, if any, options. She has already shown that she can and will leave the city with ease in order to find somewhere or someone to cope with. Don't say you can keep her from doing that either, you'll just end up stifling her if you somehow do watch her that much somehow and/or she'll successfully slip away somewhen.
-[X] It's also lose/lose from where I'm looking at this from. If I push her away and keep her away then she'll go elsewhere and be hurting from me pushing her away on top of that. If I don't then I'll likely end up... poisoning her even when I'm doing everything I can not to.
--[X] So tell me, since I definitely appear to be my mother's son with all these good intentions I have, what do we do? Because I can tell you now, unless it's Gemma who chooses to not see me, then this conversation is pointless. She'll find a way to self-destruct with or without me until she makes the choice to stop.
 
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[X] We don't have many, if any, options. She has already shown that she can and will leave the city with ease in order to find somewhere or someone to cope with. Don't say you can keep her from doing that either, you'll just end up stifling her if you somehow do watch her that much somehow and/or she'll successfully slip away somewhen.
-[X] It's also lose/lose from where I'm looking at this from. If I push her away and keep her away then she'll go elsewhere and be hurting from me pushing her away on top of that. If I don't then I'll likely end up... poisoning her even when I'm doing everything I can not to.
--[X] So tell me, since I definitely appear to be my mother's son with all these good intentions I have, what do we do? Because I can tell you now, unless it's Gemma who chooses to not see me, then this conversation is pointless. She'll find a way to self-destruct with or without me until she makes the choice to stop.
 
Actually any chance they stumble into our more recent memories as Morgan Penn so they can see the happiness we experienced when we were hanging out with them as well as terror when they were making the same mistakes? Might at least let them know it wasn't all fake.
 
There's unfortunately a lot of things wrapped up in and around this issue. Good intentions backfiring, uncountable unknown evils vs. a known one, and a core of self-destructiveness are what I'm attempting to point out and address.

Of course one could view her attempt to get us to back off like this as a "Good Intention" and I'm tempted to put that in the vote somewhere now that I've noticed. I'll have to sleep on that I guess... Although I get the feeling the bandwagon will have settled by then and no one will be bothering to check the thread as per usual for SV. :/

I originally had a "At least with me you'll know where she is" tacked on to the end of the first chunk, but that felt a little... too blunt.

Mordred was also lost and alone when he was awoken... I really can't blame him for latching onto something, anything, that was even a little familiar. *Sigh*

If anyone has any thoughts, share them please. I might not be able to get to them fully for a while (I'm gone for most of Thursdays), but I'll try.
 
[X] ShadowAngelBeta

Edit: just realized what the next memory is going to probably be; Mordred being a good little Soldier and Knight-Captain and following his Mother's orders in the face of being unable to hold the position against Lorelei again, much to the horror of his captain as he burns her families homeland with fire.

Also Ginny, honey, you can't stop a friend in a bad place from self destructing when you are part of the things causing that self destruction. Because end of the day, Gemma wants out of all of this and her support group is a part of that.
 
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Cool fight scene. Now I wish we just did that more in reality against the Breakfast Club than having most of the cool fight scenes being in dreams or flashbacks and only talk bout our feelings to them :p
 
"Annabelle's not my mother."

"She told us that's what you think. No offense, but I don't think you're one hundred percent on that one."

"Look, all I can say is…is that I know myself. And I know Percila. Sort of. I have these dreams, and…she's not not me, you know?"
The more I think about it, the more I doubt it. Yes, we have taken the path of 'they are not the people we wanted to see dead', because it probably was better than the alternative. But I no longer believe that myself. I find myself caring a great deal about Gemma and Lucy, despite the fact that we know little of the former and have never met the latter at all. All I know are their former selves, Gala and Lorelei, but that doesn't make me care about them any less.

I don't think it would be right to ignore the presence of the Knights' aspects in the Breakfast Club members. Half the time those determine their reactions and behavior in a given situation.

"There's a chance my Aunt Morgana might come pay me a visit," you say, studying Andrea's reaction. The Captain's eyes widen, and she touches her fingers lightly to her lips. "Believe me, I'd rather not have her here if I could. She could cause too much trouble in a war camp. But you can't exactly stop a woman who can wear any face or form she pleases." You shake your head. "With a little luck, she won't show up at all. With any luck she'll speak only to me. But there is a small chance she'll decide to…toy with my officers."

"Me?" Andrea whispers.

"As long as you're carful, you have nothing to worry about," you promise her. "If she wants to mess with you she has to directly offer you a deal. Do not take it. Be polite, excuse yourself, and find me immediately. Do you understand? Immediately."
"You have a question?"
"Is it true that she has to give you what she promises?" Andrea asks. "That's what all the stories say."

You sigh and run a hand through your hair. "…Yes. Yes, that's how her magic works. She offers you something you want in exchange for something she wants. Then she has to give you what she's promised before she's allowed to take what she's owed."
I think this is massive.

We've seen this narrative trick before, in the Movie. Mordred was thinking about Lorelei and her unmatched mastery of the sword, Talia has mentioned Lucy in relation to the Source, and the memories were chock full of snippets about Lorelei's exile and Lucy's exodus from the Breakfast Club, and yet... not a single trace of her was found in the dreaming world. Her absense was so conspicuous that we had to ask Sa'Lanyah about it directly, and received an answer so blatant that it could no longer be a coincidence - all without mentioning her once.

So what am I supposed to think about Morgana's planned visit to our camp when there was not a trace of the woman that can wear a face of another at will?
"That's insane."

"I think it's a great idea!" Andrea says, eyes alight. "And I saw an Angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss, and in her hand a great chain!" She claps her hands together. "It's practically prophecy!"
It was this line when it clicked in my head. The idea is so blatantly, transparently, ridiculously terrible. Abandoning your post to conspire with a childhood friend to defy your mother and Artura both while simultaneously seeking to prove yourself in her eyes. It is also so out of line for the captain to comment on that, and commend that, in the way that is both cryptic and entirely inappropriate, that it leaves me no alternative but to think that the deal we warned Andrea about has already been made, and we were too late. I can all but hear the mad cackling complementing that sparkle in the eyes.

Morgana remains a mystery to me. Wherever she appears, the misery strikes, but she is never the source. The contradictions, the ingredients necessary for the drama are always there already. It makes me doubt whether she is a mad chessmaster playing with primeval forces, a mere herald of destruction that is entirely out of her hands, or another unfortunate figure like Mordred who embraced her role as a catalyst.
"I can learn from my past mistakes!" You shout.
[...]
"Hm," Lorelei says, quietly considering your words. Then, "No. You're up to something."
Ouch. Savage.
"Gala," Lorelei says, sighing heavily. "I should've known. A true Knight would have remained at her post, no matter how patronizing it might be."

"Don't you dare lecture me," Gala growls, marching forward. She flicks her sword, throwing the blood that coats the blade off to the side. "You're a traitor, and a rebel, and a coward."

Lorelei takes a deep breath in through her nose, then huffs it out the same way. "You were raised in Camelot," she says. "I don't expect you to understand."

"I understand everything I need to."

"You're fourteen," Lorelei says, as if that resolved the matter. "Go back to Camelot, Gala. Take Mordred and his army with you. I didn't intend to shed blood today."
Right in the feels. This exchange was painful to read. I can't state enough how much I sympathize with Lorelei here.

Poor, screwed up, thrice cursed family. :(

Sooo. About Lorelei getting her powers. We thought it a mystery, but now I am thinking that it was Morgana granting her the wish we now know she held back for all these years. And perhaps the rights to her soul was the price Lorelei had to pay? Or was it something else? We have never found out how Lucy ended up sold to Sa'Lanyah, but I would assume it's either an echo of the past pact coming to haunt her, or the girl has made a new one once staying with the Club became unbearable.

But if so, does that mean that Morgana can interfere with something as powerful as the Round Table? Why doesn't she take power for herself? Why act through an intermediary? What could she possibly want from it?
 
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[X] Agree, you have no idea how you can help, but you are pretty sure you ARE making things worse. Until you have a better plan than digging deeper faster than ever, you'd stay away from her. But you can't and won't make her stay away from you.
 
[X] We don't have many, if any, options. She has already shown that she can and will leave the city with ease in order to find somewhere or someone to cope with. Don't say you can keep her from doing that either, you'll just end up stifling her if you somehow do watch her that much somehow and/or she'll successfully slip away somewhen.
-[X] It's also lose/lose from where I'm looking at this from. If I push her away and keep her away then she'll go elsewhere and be hurting from me pushing her away on top of that. If I don't then I'll likely end up... poisoning her even when I'm doing everything I can not to.
--[X] So tell me, since I definitely appear to be my mother's son with all these good intentions I have, what do we do? Because I can tell you now, unless it's Gemma who chooses to not see me, then this conversation is pointless. She'll find a way to self-destruct with or without me until she makes the choice to stop.

Mordred just can't catch a break, huh.
Him nor Gala. Between the constant shit of who they are, their stations, and parents with no parenting skills is it any wonder they both have problems this bad?
And the Knights have it just as bad because the baggage of their original selves just keeps coming back. Thinking about what Piper said and Artura's priorities (the Heraldry is more important than anything else) I'm starting to wonder if part of the reason she does what she does is because Excalibur itself has... requirements. Caledfwlch began roaring and raging whenever Mordred had certain thoughts and moods, as if goading him to go wild. Excalibur might have a catch, for all the power it gives.

For example, 'Be Worthy'. Which, well... Might require some very extreme actions or mindsets.
I could be wrong, but it's something to consider. Artura had to have some reason to be an absolute bitch all the time. Especially if Piper's comment on how the Knights and the Club are in fact the same people, just at different points of their lives.

Annabelle is Artura before all the burdens piled on, I guess? Before she became Queen.


Now on a more humorous note...
Woman, did it ever occur to you to simply TALK to your son? Explain things? Ever?
Camelot fell due to shitty parenting. And the wonderful relationships, of course.
 
[X] We don't have many, if any, options. She has already shown that she can and will leave the city with ease in order to find somewhere or someone to cope with. Don't say you can keep her from doing that either, you'll just end up stifling her if you somehow do watch her that much somehow and/or she'll successfully slip away somewhen.
-[X] It's also lose/lose from where I'm looking at this from. If I push her away and keep her away then she'll go elsewhere and be hurting from me pushing her away on top of that. If I don't then I'll likely end up... poisoning her even when I'm doing everything I can not to.
--[X] So tell me, since I definitely appear to be my mother's son with all these good intentions I have, what do we do? Because I can tell you now, unless it's Gemma who chooses to not see me, then this conversation is pointless. She'll find a way to self-destruct with or without me until she makes the choice to stop.
 
[X] Agree, as things stand right now you and Gemma are toxic. But avoiding the issue isn't going to solve anything. You and Gemma really need to talk about this like adults about your issues and establish some boundaries. Whether that talk leads to anything besides friendship is up in the air, but the talk needs to happen.
-[X] Give Gemma a few days to cool off first.
 
We have never found out how Lucy ended up sold to Sa'Lanyah, but I would assume it's either an echo of the past pact coming to haunt her, or the girl has made a new one once staying with the Club became unbearable.
Didn't San'Lanyah say that her host body was a gift from Morgana?
But if so, does that mean that Morgana can interfere with something as powerful as the Round Table? Why doesn't she take power for herself? Why act through an intermediary? What could she possibly want from it?
Wasn't there something in The Movie about greater magical power leading to more restrictions (or requiring taking on more restrictions to get)?


[X] Agree, you have no idea how you can help, but you are pretty sure you ARE making things worse. Until you have a better plan than digging deeper faster than ever, you'd stay away from her. But you can't and won't make her stay away from you.
 
[X] We don't have many, if any, options. She has already shown that she can and will leave the city with ease in order to find somewhere or someone to cope with. Don't say you can keep her from doing that either, you'll just end up stifling her if you somehow do watch her that much somehow and/or she'll successfully slip away somewhen.
-[X] It's also lose/lose from where I'm looking at this from. If I push her away and keep her away then she'll go elsewhere and be hurting from me pushing her away on top of that. If I don't then I'll likely end up... poisoning her even when I'm doing everything I can not to.
--[X] So tell me, since I definitely appear to be my mother's son with all these good intentions I have, what do we do? Because I can tell you now, unless it's Gemma who chooses to not see me, then this conversation is pointless. She'll find a way to self-destruct with or without me until she makes the choice to stop.
 
[X] We don't have many, if any, options. She has already shown that she can and will leave the city with ease in order to find somewhere or someone to cope with. Don't say you can keep her from doing that either, you'll just end up stifling her if you somehow do watch her that much somehow and/or she'll successfully slip away somewhen.
-[X] So it's also lose/lose from where I'm looking at this from. If I push her away and keep her away then she'll go elsewhere and be hurting from me pushing her away on top of that. If I don't then I'll likely end up... poisoning her even when I'm doing everything I can not to.
--[X] So tell me, since I definitely appear to be my mother's son with all these good intentions I have, what do we do? Because I can tell you now, unless it's Gemma who chooses to not see me, then this conversation is pointless. She'll find a way to self-destruct with or without me until she makes the choice to stop.
 
Didn't San'Lanyah say that her host body was a gift from Morgana?

Wasn't there something in The Movie about greater magical power leading to more restrictions (or requiring taking on more restrictions to get)?
Not a gift. A purchase, and an expensive one at that. But how did Lucy end up in Morgana's possession? To sell someone, you need to owe them, first. How did that come to be? What could Lucy wish for that she had to pay such a price?

No, I don't remember anything about restrictions... Talia's speech was pretty confusing, though. This might be what you are referring to...
Power itself cannot act. It requires an intermediary, an avatar to manifest it within the physical world.
...but I think it was said in relation to why the existence of Knights to wield that power was necessary.

I keep thinking about how much of the tragedy that befell Camelot could have been avoided. Most of what happened was inevitable given the actors, their circumstances and their personalities.
Merlin could not have left Artura to die, so he made the reincarnation spell. He loved her, of course he did. What would one do differently in his place? So then, since he could not have done everything alone, he went to Morgan to check his work, and we know how that ended.
Mordred couldn't have processed what he saw on the night of Gala's Knighting, so he went to find an adult, and found Lady Bercila, who couldn't have let it slide and took it to Artura... who in turn could not have behaved differently. The sentencing of Gwynn, Lorelei's rebellion - they are all links of the same logical chain. Pull one, and the rest will follow.
And then there is this now... Gala could not have left Morgan to face Lorelei alone, so she fled her post to warn him, whereupon the both of them conspired to prove something to their parents.
A lot of it is as immutable as the laws of physics that dictate that fire and gunpowder in close proximity will create an explosion. But was there something that lit the fuse? Did the events evolve naturally, as a series of cosmic coincidences, or were they aided? And if it is the latter, then by whom, and for what purpose? Was it Morgana? Was it the power of Fate? Talia murmured something about raw destinal energies...

There's unfortunately a lot of things wrapped up in and around this issue. Good intentions backfiring, uncountable unknown evils vs. a known one, and a core of self-destructiveness are what I'm attempting to point out and address.
Wasn't it the same with Mathew's vote? The one where he believed he was the only one who knew how to help? So what is different now? We promised to give his solution a proper consideration if it's likely to help in any way, so I guess we could extend the same promise to Ginny?

But of course, that would be deflecting the responsibility from ourselves to a third party. She is asking us to decide what we are going to do when Gemma wakes up. Will we leave, or will we stay around? Will we turn her down, or will we lead her on? Her decision will likely be based on that, because if she believes we are going to hurt her friend, it's off with our head.

So what does your vote answer to her question? You are asking her right back about what you should do... but didn't she tell you already?

veekie gives a straight answer and comes to a decision. You let her decide. If she tells you to get lost and not come back until Gemma gets better, will you oblige her?
 
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No, I don't remember anything about restrictions... Talia's speech was pretty confusing, though. This might be what you are referring to...
Your Aunt has always taught you that magic has a price, and that as one gains power, they are simultaneously shackled by debts, obligations, limitations on the way one may exert it. A being as obscenely powerful as the Ophidian Queen is more limited than most, and after long hours studying in the library of Camelot as a child, you know that she draws her power from indirect conflict, from the push and pull of a hidden war.
 
So what does your vote answer to her question? You are asking her right back about what you should do... but didn't she tell you already?
There is no good choice and she herself just threw the "Good Intentions, Path to Hell" line in our face. With that she's basically just said "The only good answer is my answer." Except it's not as my vote points out.

And that's also the point too. There isn't an answer. The only way this gets better is for Gemma to make a choice. I say that in the vote itself.

There is no answer here that will help more than harm.

Like I said in the 2nd post after the vote I made, I had originally planned to be a bit more blunt about us being the lesser evil here, but it came off as too blunt.
 
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