Dark Prince of Camelot

They're capable of speech, of thought and reasoning, of long term planning. But they're not really capable of growth or change. They're hollow.

Mordred's own magic wasn't anywhere near Gwynn or Merlin, but he could probably give Matthew or Gavin a run for their money if he spent some time knocking the rust off (I've mentioned before that Mordred's imprisonment left him "out of it" magically speaking). Mordred's experience with magic is generally more academic - he's easily in the top 10 humans alive in terms of theory - but he never really delved into its practical application the way a dedicated sorcerer would.

His raw power is
Why are Matthew and Gavin so much weaker than their original counterparts? Is it a matter of age, or what?

---

Also, it feels kind of weird that no one in the "trial" brought up the small detail about how Mordred deliberately and knowingly outed himself (and broke his own cover/disguise) to save Annabelle when her life was threatened. And that he didn't take the opportunity to stab the Knight he was with at the time in the back.

That's not the kind of action someone who is your enemy (or who doesn't care about your survival) does. Same goes with surrendering without a fight (or even trying to flee). And with saving the Knights (and going out of his way to keep them alive even when they were being possessed and threatening the world) in the illusory world incident. And (and I'm disappointed this hasn't come up yet!) Mordred telling Annabelle in that shared dream that her cooking was actually cursed to taste horrible when it is eaten, despite the information being something that could have threatened his cover (and that he could have revealed it when in his cover identity, benefiting him much more).

I mean, if they had captured Mordred after taking him down in a fight, them being so hostile and leaning away from execution only because some of them believe they need what he knows would make a lot more sense. But as it is, it feels really strange that most of them have already made up their minds about what they'd prefer to do to him (if they didn't need to know what he knows), rather than feeling more confused by Mordred's recent actions than anything.

And, well, I would think that Matthew, at least, would be cautiously hopeful about the chance to gain someone almost on his own level when it comes to skill and knowledge with magic (if not greater in some areas, due to him being from before the fall of Camelot, back when magical knowledge was at its peak) as a teammate/ally. He, at least, seems to understand that the biggest threat facing the Knights is advanced magic they don't understand or know about, which Mordred might prove key in dealing with.

Question, though: Annabelle doesn't get a vote in this decision, IIRC. Why is that? Not only is she the leader, she probably has a better understanding of him than anyone else in the Breakfast Club does at the moment.
 
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Question, though: Annabelle doesn't get a vote in this decision, IIRC. Why is that?
Personal bias(just because a scientist knows science better than you doesn't mean their own personal bias can't cloud their judgment about science-related things near and dear to their heart*). They think that her personal opinions are too clouded to really have good judgment.

*in some cases the paycheck, in others the theory they have been working on well over half their careers.
Not only is she the leader,
AS far as I can really see she's their leader in the same way a pirate captain is their crew's boss(they are mainly in charge only during battles)
She probably has a better understanding of him than anyone else in the Breakfast Club does at the moment.
The question most likely on their minds: how much of that understanding is lies or deceptions Mordred tricked/magic-ed her with?
 
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Also, it feels kind of weird that no one in the "trial" brought up the small detail about how Mordred deliberately and knowingly outed himself (and broke his own cover/disguise) to save Annabelle when her life was threatened. And that he didn't take the opportunity to stab the Knight he was with at the time in the back.

That's not the kind of action someone who is your enemy (or who doesn't care about your survival) does.
Piper did bring that up:
Piper rubs the side of her neck, her expression thoughtful. "You could have killed us," she murmurs. "You got us all down…"
However, the thing with Mordred is that he is a plotter. He was a loyal ally of Camelot... right until he wasn't. He was an ally of the Forces of Darkness and similarly served them faithfully (and has done numerous favors for them) while scheming their total demise. He has a reputation of a deceiver to the point where he could think himself a rival to Sa'Lanyah.

You simply can not be certain about his motives and allegiances. Bailey and Ginny think it's just another manipulation and a blatant attempt to gain their trust for something nefarious... and if it isn't something a enemy likely to do, then it's because Mordy is that good at manipulation. Others are... conflicted, as you can see.

Leaving him alive would be a giant risk not all of them are willing to take.
Annabelle doesn't get a vote in this decision, IIRC. Why is that? Not only is she the leader, she probably has a better understanding of him than anyone else in the Breakfast Club does at the moment.
Precisely. If we screwed with their perceptions, we can do so with hers much more effectively. After all, the basis for her 'understanding' lies in what she saw in our head - or what they believed we chose to show her, - and our interactions with her.

They think she is compromised.
 
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Parker's First Law
"Okay," you say.

"Matthew claps his hands again and strides off down a side hallway, murmuring to himself. Gavin watches him go, then ducks down under the faux round table and pulls out a cardboard box filled with spray paint, chalk, and various other art supplies.

"Up," he says to Ginny and Bailey, both of whom are sitting on the table. The girls roll their eyes but hop out of their seats, Ginny stretching her arms above her head while Bailey drains the last of her beer. Gavin places his hand in the center of the table, and with a flare of power the heavy wood begins sinking into the floor. "I can't set up the interface until I know how many of us are going in," he says, staring at the box of art supplies. The table finishes its descent, top now level with the ground. The wood forms a sharp contrast with the floor around it – a magic circle as functional as any you've seen.

"You and Matthew have to go," Piper says. "I think I'd like to come too."

"I'm not letting you guys out of my sight until we make a decision about him," Ginny says, glancing your way. "So I'm in."

"I'm coming," Annabelle says. Nobody looks particularly comfortable with the idea, but nobody challenges her on it.

"Bailey?" Piper asks.

The green haired girl shakes her head. "No. Someone has to watch Gemma."

"She won't be up for a while," Gavin says. "The only sleeping spell I have that's strong enough to affect one of you is…strong stuff."

"Bailey," Annabelle says. "I know this would be hard for you, but…we need you in there. I trust you to be objective. To make sure that…to make sure."

You bite the inside of your cheek. Looks like Annabelle might not be as far into your corner as you thought. Is she afraid you were manipulating your shared dreams together? Even if you'd wanted to, you weren't sure you could've done anything in the face of the hurricane that is her psyche. But she's worried, all the same. Afraid of you, all the same.

Bailey paces back and forth, a multitude of emotions flicker across her face. Her fingers clench tight around the handle of her battleaxe.

"It'll be different than it is with you," Gavin says, his voice level, almost soothing. "I promise."

Bailey opens her mouth, then closes it again. She nods, then stalks over to a minifridge to crack open another beer.

"Okay then, that's six of us," Gavin says. "Good even number. Should be pretty easy." He shakes up a can of red spraypaint and gets to work, painting circles on the ground just beyond the limits of the table.

Matthew emerges from a doorway on the opposite side of the room to the one he vanished into, a mess of wiring and machinery in his arms. He checks over Gavin's head.

"All of us?" He asks.

Gavin nods. "Everyone's on board."

"Good, an even number," Matthew says with a satisfied nod. He lays down the jumble in his arms and gets to work stringing the wires around the circle.

In the far corner of the room, Ginny and Piper talk quietly, Ginny grasping Piper's hands. Not far behind you, Bailey kneels behind Annabelle's wheelchair, her arms draped over the blonde's shoulders. Even without being able to work spellsigns, it wouldn't be hard for you to eavesdrop, but spying, here, now, strikes you as…the kind of plan you shouldn't be hatching anymore.

"Gavin, Matthew," you ask. "Is it okay if I stand up? Watch you guys work?"

Matthew and Gavin exchange a glance, then shrug. "Why not?" Matthew asks.

You get to your feet and wander over to where they're working, glancing over them as they shuffle around the circle on hands and knees. Gavin has drawn seven small circles whose edges kiss the outer boundary of the main circle, one at due south with the others spaced evenly between east and west. Now he's tracing bold, direct lines between each of the circles, like digging canals for the power to flow through. Matthew has a macbook booting up, connected to the various circles through dozens of feet of black wire.

Strangely, their work looks even more alien to you than Talia's did, when the two of you were restructuring the Roosevelt wards together. The runes she had used were foreign, but you understood their functions – to shape and mold energy as it moved, refining it from raw, uncontrolled power into polished spellwork that did what you wanted it to do. Matthew and Gavin, by contrast, seem to be leaving no space for runes of any kind.

"Where are you going to put the runes?" You ask, curiosity finally getting the better of you. Magic had never been your life, like it had been for some scholars back in Camelot, but it had been a vital piece of your childhood curriculum, and you had never liked the feeling of a puzzle you couldn't solve.

Gavin taps his fingers against the macbook without looking up from his painting. "There's an app for that," he says. "Matthew and I found it when we first discovered magic. You'd be surprised how much real shit is floating around on the internet, pretending to be a cheap Harry Potter knock-off."

"It gets the basics down, but it's super limited," Matthew explains. "I've been having to recode the thing on the fly as we learn, but it's faster and more convenient than doing all the runework by hand."

"You do all that through a computer?" You ask, unable to keep the incredulity out of your voice. You've always known it was possible, you suppose – the Architects were said to have married magic and mundane technology, and at the Ivory Palace you had met a young girl who wove spells in clockwork. But the idea that humans might do something similar had…never really occurred to you. Each race wove magic differently.

Matthew nods. "I've been working on a way to digitize the entire process. The theory is sound…runes, paint, computers, they're all just different interfaces we use to access the same energy. Think about how many spells you could carry on your phone."

You're chewing on his words when Bailey comes up from behind you, shooting you a glare as she passes. She kneels down net to Matthew and whispers something in his ear, hands hiding her lips from your vision.

"Now?" Matthew asks. "With everyone here?" He glances over at you and shoves a thumb in your direction. "With him here?"

Bailey turns her head to you, a crimson blush sneaking up her neck and into her cheeks. She breathes deeply through her nose and the blush freezes, then slowly fades. "Everyone else has already seen it," she whispers. "It would help. I…need help."

"Okay," Matthew says, nodding. "Is Ginny joining in, or is it just us?"

"I've already said yes," Ginny calls from across the room. She gives Matthew two thumbs up then gestures to a pair of laptops set beside her. "Ready to set up when you two are done."

Gavin gets to his feet, recapping the spray pain and studying his work with a critical eye. "I'm done," he says. "Should we start getting people into position?"

"Yeah, give me a chance to double check this code," Matthew says, eyes skimming over long lines of white text on a black background. "I stitched this together from whatever neuromancy was left in our brains, so I'd like a chance to give it a once over."

Gavin nods and points at you. "Morgan," he says, "you need to lie on your back, with your head in here." He taps his foot against the southernmost circle. "Get it?"

You nod. From the way Gavin has drawn his pathways, the energy will well up under the heads of the Breakfast Club, then emanate outwards through the circle to you. If you had to guess, you'd say the energy will carry microimpressions of their psyches along with it, like projecting their consciousnesses directly into your brain. Matthew and Gavin built this from whatever neuromantic remnants they found in their own heads? That was like…rebuilding a car from the wreckage of its own explosion. And then taking that car apart and building a motorcycle instead. "Um, I need…" you turn slightly, drawing attention to the shackles locking your hands behind your back.

"Oh, right." Gavin strides over and touches the shackles, exerting power. The shackles don't vanish but they do disconnect, leaving you free to separate your hands. Gavin grabs your wrists and guides the shackles back together, this time in front of your body. They shackles click back together on impact, sealing as tightly as if they had never been separated. That done, Gavin moves on to Annabelle, kneeling in front of her and speaking in a low whisper. You see her smile and lean her head forward so that her forehead gently touches Gavin's. The pink haired boy hooks one arm under her knees and the other around her shoulder, then lifts her gently from the wheelchair. He carries her over to the circle and places on the floor. The back of her head rests in the northernmost mini-circle, her feet pointed away from you.

"Comfortable?" He asks.

"The floor always makes me super sore," Annabelle says. "I already can't feel my legs."

Gavin rolls his eyes and lays down with his head inside the circle just to the right of hers. "We almost good?"

"Good to go," Matthew says. Piper takes this as her cue to lay her head down in the easternmost circle, but instead of joining them Matthew, Bailey and Ginny all take seats cross-legged in the floor, fingers resting lightly on their keyboards.

"Ready?" Bailey asks. If you crane your neck a little you can see her, staring at her screen with a furious intensity.

"Ready," Ginny says.

"Ready," Matthew says. He presses a button on his keyboard.



What the fuck is happening?

"Exotic energy signature detected!" Ginny shouts, keyboard furiously clacking away.

"Analyzing on all wavelengths!" Matthew shouts. "Blood type is blue!"

Bailey catches your eyes over the lip of her computer screen and immediately looks back down, blocking you out. "It's an angel!" She shouts.

What the fuck is happening?

"Reversing the ego border!" Ginny calls.

"C-Mode is already breaking down!" Matthew says. His fingers are moving so fast across the keyboard that there's absolutely no way he's typing anything coherent. Are they all just smashing random buttons?

"It's not going to hold!" Bailey shouts. "Empty our particle wave matter reserves!"

"Emptying!" Ginny and Matthew shout at the same time.

"Reroute neural composites!" Bailey says. "Core pulse is at plus five and dropping!"

You crane your neck to get a glimpse of Piper, Bailey and Annabelle. They don't seem to be worried, so at least Ginny, Matthew and Bailey aren't undergoing a bizarre three-way mental breakdown.

"The uh…the positron barrier is cycling!" Ginny shouts. "It's do or die!"

Bailey slams a hand into the ground. "It's too soon!" She shouts. "Aboot, what are our AT specs?"

"Not looking good, Commander. T minus ten!"

"Fuck it! Do it now!" Bailey roars. "Launch! Launch!"

Matthew hits one last key, and the three leap to their feet, scrambling to their places on the circle.

"Got that out of your system?" Piper asks.

"You're ruining the immersion," Matthew says. "Now get-"

The floor drops out from under you.

You jerk, eyes going wide. For a moment it's like you're back in the nothingness, the crystal cage that trapped you in the void between infinities. But you feel here. You are here. You breath in through your nose, and suddenly your back slams into the ground, pain jolting through every nerve of your body. You reach for Caledfwlch but find only an aching emptiness.

"Shit!" You shout. Your exclamation of pain joins in a chorus of similar cries, and as you roll to your feet you see the Breakfast Club doing the same around you. Each of them is dressed in rumpled, familiar clothes – you look down and see you're wearing Bone's hand-me-downs. The world around you is black on black on black, the color shifting like mists in the distance. You think you can make out a few trees, but it's hard to see in the darkness – though the Breakfast Club is bright and pick out.

"Hey!" Annabelle shouts. "I can move again!" She pirouettes and strikes a pose. Piper and Ginny mob her, and the three bounce excitedly as a single unit for a moment.

"Is everyone okay?" Matthew asks, rubbing his hands together nervously. "Anyone feel anything weird?"

"Not weird, but this doesn't feel anything like when Morgan and I shared dreams," Annabelle says, hugging Ginny and Piper tighter against her. "Sorta…colder. Emptier."

"Psyches are distorted by perception," you say quietly. "There are seven people here, perceiving, influencing…it makes everything less personal. More distant."

Matthew grunts. "Usually I'm the one that has to explain all this stuff. The theories and principles."

You shrug. "I learned from the best." It's not a compliment, not really – just a statement of fact.

Matthew regards you curiously for a moment. "Anyway," he says, "I built this little area we're in now as a stepping off point. Right now, we're seeing a really simplified overview of Mordred's mind, the part that's directly affected by the spell."

Realization dawns on you. "That's why I can't see anything. It's a…really obvious metaphor."

"Exactly!" Matthew says. "The spell works by stopping the brain from connecting abstract concepts. Like Mordred and Morgan, or Morgana and Ms. Badwitch."

The Breakfast Club groans collectively.

"Yeah, yeah, it gets worse every time," Matthew says, clearly out of patience with that particular tradition. "Abstract concepts are hard to deal with directly because…you know…they're abstract. So we're gonna deal with more concrete stuff. Memories associated with the concepts being blocked."

"How does sifting through his memories help?" Piper asks.

"From Morgan's reaction when we talk about Lucy, the spell that's affecting him is pretty crude," Matthew explains. "I'm willing to bet that if we poke around in affected memories enough, the spell will unravel."

It makes sense. Filling your head with unaffected minds, shaking whatever you can…neuromancy is complicated, delicate work, and prone to falling apart when confronted. The fact that you can even think coherently about the spell is evidence that its grip on your thoughts is weakening.

"Now everyone take a second to get acclimated, and let me talk to Mordred really quick," Matthew says. He walks a few steps off into the fog and gestures for you to follow.

When you come up alongside him he's resting his back against a tree, arms crossed, expression pensive. "Talk quiet," he says. "The girls don't have their heraldries in here, but they're nosy."

"Is everything okay?" You ask. "Is something wrong with the ritual?"

"What?" Matthew asks. Then he shakes his head. "Oh. No, everything's going fine. I just…" he trails off, tapping his foot against the ground. "I didn't realize you knew about magic."

That's a bit of a non sequitur, but you roll with the punches. "It was just part of my education," you say. "Like physics, or literature."

"Like Harry Potter," Matthew says wistfully. "Bet it beat High School. Look, I…this isn't really the time, but considering we might execute you when we all wake up, there isn't really a better one. I was…I was wondering…can you use neuromancy to affect long term changes in a subject's psyche? Stable changes, not like the mess in your head, or whatever you did to ours."

What is this about? "Well…neuromancy wasn't really my specialty, but theoretically I don't see why not. If you had enough time and patience you could edit someone's psyche without any loss of cohesion." A sudden, terrible thought strikes you. "Are you trying to brainwash people?"

"What? No!" Matthew shakes his head, as if offended at the mere idea. "No, I would never…no. I was just…I was thinking…" he sighs. "I could use this ritual to fix Gemma."

"Fix her?"

Matthew looks pained. "Fix was the wrong word, too many implications, but…she's, she's not okay, man. She's sick…she's hurting in a way that none of us can help her with."

"Except you."

"Maybe. Except me, maybe. I know…it sounds insane. I know it does! But we need Gemma. It's not about her Heraldry…it's not just about her Heraldry. It's about…it's about a lot, and…she's my friend." His eyes meet yours, and they have a strange, crazed redness that you recognize from soldiers who'd been on the march too long. "She's my friend, and I can help her. There isn't a therapist in the world…not enough drugs in all the worlds. But I can help her. And if I can help her, isn't it wrong not to? Don't I owe it to her, as her friend, to help her through this? She's done so much for me…she's lost limbs, she's taken bullets, she's lied and stolen and killed, and, and, and I couldn't do anything…but now I can! And if I can but I don't…" he hangs his head. "If I can but I don't…"

What do you say?

[] Write In
((Two hour freeze on voting please, to allow for some discussion))
 
Stop Halping Matthew.....just stop.

Brainwashing long term is bound to get unraveled at an inopportune moment by some baddie knowledgeable about that kind of crap and after the initial shock Gemma is going to be in an even worse place than before.
 
He needs to ask her. He needs to see if this is something she'll want, or else... or else this is some seriously skeevy shit. It's not bad to want to help someone, and it's not bad to at least consider your options, but you can't force this on her or else you're forcing someone else to follow your idea of what you think is best for them. It'd be nice to say that only you can decide what is best for you, but.

If she's asked, is given a through explanation, time to think it over, and the option to not go through with it she she feels like she can take, that not going through with this is a real option, then it'd be okay. It sounds like it would be something like magic antidepressants then. Something for her to step out of a bad headspace. These conditions are probably not going to be something that can be arranged. And if they can't be done, then this becomes something fucked up.

I'd say that if he feels like he owes her something for her friendship and her sacrifices, then it's that he owes her options. This is... maybe not a good starting point. But it is a new option.

He should maybe try coming up with a couple of other things to present along side this thing is what I want to say, but if he's considering this he's probably out of ideas.
 
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On one hand, it's basically the magical equivalent of giving her drugs to get better. Experimental ones sure, but it's still done with the intent to help.

Other the other hand, messing with people's minds is dangerous, a slippery slope, and seems bound to go wrong at the worst moment.

On the third magic hand, he's asking for moral advice from us, on a magical solution to a problem done with the best intentions in mind. Rhymes quite a bit with the last time Merlin talked about something like this with us. We all know how that turned out

On the fourth, mental construct of a hand, this is Gala Gemma. Mordred's feelings on her can be lightly stated as complex.
 
On the third magic hand, he's asking for moral advice from us, on a magical solution to a problem done with the best intentions in mind. Rhymes quite a bit with the last time Merlin talked about something like this with us. We all know how that turned out

Gotta emphasize how compromised Matthew is with this right now.

He is asking a man that is still on trial by their group and may be executed for advice on messing with the brain of one of his friends.

The fact that he even opened his mouth shows how far off the deep end he has leaped already.

That's a pretty extreme form of desperation.
 
I worry that even if we give Matthew the go ahead that he'll have difficulties convincing the group and as a result will do it on his own without any consent. "Mordred says that this is theoretically possible" is not a convincing argument at all. Worse still if he asks them to let Mordred help him.
 
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"I will be brief with you," Merlin said. He looks older than you remember, face creased with age, hair hanging in grimy locks down to his shoulder. His eyes have this strange, crazed redness that you recognize from soldiers who'd been on the march too long.

"Maybe. Except me, maybe. I know…it sounds insane. I know it does! But we need Gemma. It's not about her Heraldry…it's not just about her Heraldry. It's about…it's about a lot, and…she's my friend." His eyes meet yours, and they have a strange, crazed redness that you recognize from soldiers who'd been on the march too long.
Yeahahano. You're staring down the same path as Merlin, and I cannot see the journey having a pretty end.
 
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I kinda what to laugh hysterically at this, but we kinda need his vote.

We might want to squeeze in a comment on how even with things so different, some things just don't seem to change. I'm thinking that we should at least inform him of the parallel to what started the Reincarnation Cycle so long ago. Maybe a comment of, "Your eyes look just like his did, back then."

But yeah, we can't afford to alienate him, although he'd probably still vote to let us live because he really wants what we know
 
He needs to ask her. He needs to see if this is something she'll want, or else... or else this is some seriously skeevy shit. It's not bad to want to help someone, and it's not bad to at least consider your options, but you can't force this on her or else you're forcing someone else to follow your idea of what you think is best for them. It'd be nice to say that only you can decide what is best for you, but.

If she's asked, is given a through explanation, time to think it over, and the option to not go through with it she she feels like she can take, that not going through with this is a real option, then it'd be okay. It sounds like it would be something like magic antidepressants then. Something for her to step out of a bad headspace. These conditions are probably not going to be something that can be arranged. And if they can't be done, then this becomes something fucked up.

I'd say that if he feels like he owes her something for her friendship and her sacrifices, then it's that he owes her options. This is... maybe not a good starting point. But it is a new option.

He should maybe try coming up with a couple of other things to present along side this thing is what I want to say, but if he's considering this he's probably out of ideas.
This. Something like this should only be done either by trained psychiatrists who understand her case thoroughly, or with the informed consent of the subject.

As a form of compromise, we could tell Matthew that we need more information before making any kind of judgment on the matter, and now is certainly not the time for that. But we can emphasize that we want to help Gemma, too.

Also, how does he know that all the therapy/medication in the world won't work when it seems like he's never even tried any of it?

[X] Tell Matthew that you really need more information and time to think about it before making any kind of judgment on the matter, and now is clearly not the time. That said, we really do want to help Gemma, too.
[X] We'll find a way to help Gemma--assuming we're alive to even try--one way or another. Things aren't hopeless yet.


EDIT: Removed [] Warn him that he's starting to remind us of Merlin quite a bit--in a bad way, not a good way. Going down that path without being extremely careful can easily end in tragedy. Best not to do anything rash or extreme, especially not unilaterally.

Now might not be the best time for making that point.
 
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He needs to ask her. He needs to see if this is something she'll want, or else... or else this is some seriously skeevy shit. It's not bad to want to help someone, and it's not bad to at least consider your options, but you can't force this on her or else you're forcing someone else to follow your idea of what you think is best for them. It'd be nice to say that only you can decide what is best for you, but.
Have you considered that Gemma might not be in the right state of mind for making such a decision? If a suicidal person say they want to die, are you obliged to follow through on that?

And this is the question of correcting a state of mind, making it a catch 22.

This is not what concerns me. What concerns me is that he wants to keep it a secret from the others. If he believes this is the best way to do things, why doesn't he start with convincing them who are perfectly sane, for a given definition of a word? If he can't, then it's likely that his desire for help is misguided.

As Valerian noted, he isn't the perfect picture of mental stability himself.

I could go along with this if it is a group decision, however. We are unlikely to find anyone who understands her case any better than that.

Edit:
As for reminding him of Merlin, it strikes me as absolutely useless piece of trivia. He doesn't remember, and whatever he remembers, he doesn't care about. Why bring this up at all?

The last time ended in a tragedy with Mordy freaking out and killing everyone because he didn't like what Merlin was about to do. What kind of message are you trying to send him here?
 
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Have you considered that Gemma might not be in the right state of mind for making such a decision? If a suicidal person say they want to die, are you obliged to follow through on that?

And this is the question of correcting a state of mind, making it a catch 22.

This is not what concerns me. What concerns me is that he wants to keep it a secret from the others. If he believes this is the best way to do things, why doesn't he start with convincing them who are perfectly sane, for a given definition of a word? If he can't, then it's likely that his desire for help is misguided.

As Valerian noted, he isn't the perfect picture of mental stability himself.

I could go along with this if it is a group decision, however.

If a suicidal person says they want to die you fucking talk to them.

This is kinda pissing me off. Speaking as someone who was suicidal, and still thinks about it on occasion, I don't like your implication that just because someone's in a bad headspace, that their feelings don't matter. They do. They have reasons for why they get to that point, and it feels like you're skipping around those issues because you just care that they've gotten to that point.

Shit, I'm actually crying. I'll come back to this in the morning.
 
[x] "Your eyes, they look much as his did back then. I have seen too many farcical scenes of old Camelot played out in your lives. I would show you a memory of Merlin and myself, and ask you, you as Matthew Abbot, not to make Merlin's mistakes once again as Gavin made Gwynn's."

How does this seem to everyone? Any suggestions?

EDIT:
Edit:
As for reminding him of Merlin, it strikes me as absolutely useless piece of trivia. He doesn't remember, and whatever he remembers, he doesn't care about. Why bring this up at all?

This reincarnation effect thats been going on (which is the cause of more or less all their social drama in the last year), was the result of Merlin's previous decision. Gemma is in a bad spot because she isn't coping. The only reason she's been forced to cope with all of this was Merlin's work. Importantly, this ties into helping us remember Lucy/Lorelei and illustrating how just because we betrayed Camelot doesn't mean we are their enemy.

EDIT2: @SaltyWaffles I think it might actually be a good idea to tell him how he's reminding us of Merlin, but only in a way that helps show how we think of him and the others as separate from their prior incarnations - all our reasons for betrayal died with Camelot and the people within. Fundamentally, they believe we want to kill/fight/oppose them simply because they are reincarnations of people who we did. If we can convince them we have no reason to want to kill them, then we might be able to swing some of the middle votes.
 
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[x] "Your eyes, they look much as his did back then. I have seen too many farcical scenes of old Camelot played out in your lives. I would show you a memory of Merlin and myself, and ask you, you as Matthew Abbot, not to make Merlin's mistakes once again as Gavin made Gwynn's."

How does this seem to everyone? Any suggestions?
Seems like a pretty decent idea. That's also exactly the kind of memory that the Breakfast Club needs to see in order to gain context. Maybe we shouldn't lead with that though? Try to show them some memories of the civil war first. Or at least the time Morgana showed up in Camelot as Not Morgan le Fay.
 
Seems like a pretty decent idea. That's also exactly the kind of memory that the Breakfast Club needs to see in order to gain context. Maybe we shouldn't lead with that though? Try to show them some memories of the civil war first. Or at least the time Morgana showed up in Camelot as Not Morgan le Fay.

I'm not sure we want to show them the civil war at first - it shows us rather explicitly as their enemy, which is what we want to avoid - they want to end us as a threat before we can do anything, and convincing them we have no reasons to be a threat seems a good idea, rather than memories where we are the threat. And to be clear, we aren't showing the full club here, just Merlin for now.
 
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I'm not sure we want to show them the civil war at first - it shows us rather explicitly as their enemy, which is what we want to avoid - they want to end u as a threat before we can do anything, and convincing them we have no reasons to be a threat seems a good idea, rather than memories where we are the threat. And to be clear, we aren't showing the full club here, just Merlin for now.
I meant the civil war with Lancelot, not the one where we killed our friends and family. :(
 
[x] "Your eyes, they look much as his did back then. I have seen too many farcical scenes of old Camelot played out in your lives. I would show you a memory of Merlin and myself, and ask you, you as Matthew Abbot, not to make Merlin's mistakes once again as Gavin made Gwynn's."
 
I meant the civil war with Lancelot, not the one where we killed our friends and family. :(

Yeah oops, misread that there. I'm not sure its the best memory to show Matthew right now though. Maybe we can save those for when we are exploring what we were made to forget with the whole group - we aren't in a position to draw the link between Lucy and Lorelei (to us, showing them Lorelei is like showing them DPoC!Tristan or Agravaine - as far as we know, they're not even reincarnating) right now, directly, but we can sorta do that from one side - Gwynn cheated on Artura, and Gavin cheated on Annabelle.
 
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Yeah oops, misread that there. I'm not sure its the best memory to show Matthew right now though. Maybe we can save those for when we are exploring what we were made to forget with the whole group - we aren't in a position to draw the link between Lucy and Lorelei right now, directly, but we can sorta do that from one side - Gwynn cheated on Artura, and Gavin cheated on Annabelle.
Can we even share memories privately right now? This is a group drug trip after all. And if not I do not want to end up showing this intensely personal memory to everyone without good reason.

Maybe we can ask Matthew if has Gemma's consent for now and ask him if he will let us show him a private memory later?
 
This reincarnation effect thats been going on (which is the cause of more or less all their social drama in the last year), was the result of Merlin's previous decision. Gemma is in a bad spot because she isn't coping. The only reason she's been forced to cope with all of this was Merlin's work. Importantly, this ties into helping us remember Lucy/Lorelei and illustrating how just because we betrayed Camelot doesn't mean we are their enemy.
One correction, though. The reincarnation is a result of Mordy interfering with Merlin's previous decision. The original plan was to preserve Artura, and didn't involve anyone else as far as I remember. That they got stuck with an incomplete and faulty version of the spell which Artura cast to save them from Mordy's murderous rampage is not Merlin's fault at all.

It's like... I don't know, sabotaging a medical operation, leaving the patient in a coma, and then telling the surgeon he is to blame.

Overall I think we are trying too hard to justify ourselves to people who care much more about the present than they do about the past, having not lived there.
 
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One correction, though. The reincarnation is a result of Mordy's interfering with Merlin's previous decision. The original plan was to preserve Artura, and didn't involve anyone else as far as I remember. That they got stuck with an incomplete and faulty version of the spell which Artura cast to save them from Mordy's murderous rampage is not Merlin's fault at all.

It's like... I don't know, sabotaging a medical operation, leaving a patient in a coma, and then telling the surgeon he is to blame.

Point of order - the aim is to tell Matthew that Merlin is to blame, at the very root, but that we do not hold that against him. The subtext is that Matthew didn't make Merlin's mistakes, in our eyes, and he (and by extension the group) are blameless of all that had us betray Camelot. I want Matthew blaming Merlin for all the drama and shit that the breakfast club has gone through (by being the reincarnations), to an extent. If we have him against Merlin, he is closer to being on our side. I'm sure that Mordred blames Merlin and not himself, to a certain degree, so we can even project sincerity. After all, Mordred only betrayed everyone because he thought Merlin was going to fuck everything up - he is certainly culpable, but if Matthew can recognize what this parallel decision caused (Mordred's rebellion and the reincarnations), and how all this shit is being played out in repeat, we can have him move away from acting against us because we acted against Merlin.
 
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