I'm not particularly convinced by this line of thought, either. We should be able to tell stories without having to spell everything out for the lowest common denominator, but there is undeniably a difference between content and presentation. There is self-evidently something deeply wrong with the way we use the language of cyberpunk when so very many people can consume the genre and come away without having interrogated capitalism and classism, let alone the likes of ableism or transphobia. The reality that trans people deserve better than exploitation is meaningless to an audience that will accept this in-universe exploitation uncritically.
This sums it up. While if I was inclined to give the benefit of the doubt I could say it works as an in-universe demonstration of assimilation and commodification, CD Projekt's track record and the context of this being an unremarked on background piece makes me very much not see that as the intent here, nor believe it will be taken that way. I think somebody just wanted a fetishy pinup on the in-game advertising, and they'll quite happily leave it in the game to be giggled at or jerked off to without any actual text or comment even touching on trans issues in this world. It is, effectively, using trans women as sexualized shorthand, and unless I see confirmation otherwise the likelihood is that that's all they'll be in there as.
 
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Ignoring for a second that immortality is in fact bad on any level and a mass immortality is basically the worst possible thing I could imagine someone unleashing on Earth, cyberpunk (that is the genre) has a pretty long history of pointing out how terrible using tech to achieve immortality would be going all the way back to Neuromancer.
Oh, that's a topic that's going to become very relevant very soon. Because technically we've been pursuing immortality for centuries, if not millennia. Everything you could possibly say about immortality could be applied to all medical developments ever; biologically, we should all die at 20; nature is done with us once we've reached reproductive maturity, and the half-century on top of that first-world citizens on average can expect just pisses Mommy Dearest Nature off to no end QED every degenerative condition ever. You could blame medicine for every crime ever committed by someone over 20 - you might as well say that everyone should die at 20 to put humanity "in balance with Nature". Pfui!
I'm sorry, do you expect us to be thankful for this minstrel show bullshit? That's fucking wild.
Considering that most media still just goes, "eew, weird", a setting where it's glamorous is a hell of a step forward.
 
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Yes, the glamorous world of ... soda.

I mean,t hat's not even getting into how Night City's glitz and glamour is supposed to be a bad thing, you know ...?
I still remember those hideously stupid political attack ads about which bathrooms people are supposed to use. Now THAT is some psychotic crap.

A world with trans Lady Gaga? Sounds kind of neat, actually.
 
And? That's....What? Obviously not proof that the characters trans.
I've seen plenty of guys who put on a little makeup and fuss with their hair and they come out looking really femme and that's before we get into the settings bodysculpting and Punk fashion sense (You know, where crossdressing is a legit thing.)

Honestly, the immediate knee jerk reaction that the ad is protraying a trans character ignores that this could also easily be depicting a guy crossdressing or a queer character.
 
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ffffff


....

(throws glass bowl in sink to enjoy the smash)


And again I ask, in a world with THAT STUPID CRAP, why don't you think being considered hip and trendy to be a complement, albeit a sloppy one?

Because it's not hip and trendy. Like, whatever the fiction of the world is being trans isn't hip and trendy so like, that picture just comes across as another example of fetishistic lust that doesn't actually acknowledge our humanity or like, anything about what being trans is like. It's completely divorced from actual trans experience and we don't have any indication that there will be any deeper, respectful examination of the issue at this time.
 
Uploading Soulkiller is a baaaaad idea.
It was designed originally as a weapon that could forcibly upload a person's brain from their body and leave an empty husk. The risk for abuse is just astronomical.
That's not even touching on the immortality aspect is not effective without a bunch of spare bodies.

So either body snatching from the poor or creating fast grown clones. (Which was possible in CP2020 in one adventure, but the ending doesn't have a canon ending.)

Well if there's no way to release immortality ethically I probably won't bother with this game. I am too tired to deal with this stuff.
 
And? That's....What? Obviously not proof that the characters trans.
I've seen plenty of guys who put on a little makeup and fuss with their hair and they come out looking really femme and that's before we get into the settings bodysculpting and Punk fashion sense (You know, where crossdressing is a legit thing.)

Honestly, the immediate knee jerk reaction that the ad is protraying a trans character ignores that this could also easily be depicting a guy crossdressing or a queer character.

Is it so hard for you to understand that CDPR has earned very little faith in this regard?

Because right now I see you fighting tooth and nail against something that CD Project and their subsidiaries have a bad track record with and acting like the expression of worry is terrible and how dare people have such a lack of trust? Frankly the amount of stanning energy coming from you could fuel the whole electricity bill of the project.

I'm largely interested in the game and you are ridiculous.
 
I, too, consider porn to be an example of progressive thought. My personal favorite is: "[Slur] [Underage] [Slur] [Anatomically Impossible Act] By [More Slurs]"
 
Why are we assuming the character is a woman and not a queer character or a crossdressing male character?

To begin with, "queer" is not exactly a gender, and it's not mutually exclusive with womanhood, and the very advertisement is about "mixing it up"; it invokes androgyny implicitly (through the innuendo of mixture) as well as explicitly (through the image of the effeminate sex object with a phallus).

The broader problem is that it doesn't fucking matter if this woman is a woman or a man. They're a fictionalized model on a poster in a universe that is itself fictional. To the audience, this character can be read as a cis woman who installed a dick, or as an effeminate man, or as a trans woman, but this character still serves a sexualized transfemme; "women with penises", "effeminate men", and "effeminate male sex objects" in particular are all popular symbols of transfemininity. It's no coincidence that men try to fuck us transfemmes as if we're the gay men, tr*ps, and futanari they've seen in their porn.

And? That's....What? Obviously not proof that the characters trans.
I've seen plenty of guys who put on a little makeup and fuss with their hair and they come out looking really femme and that's before we get into the settings bodysculpting and Punk fashion sense (You know, where crossdressing is a legit thing.)

Anyone born a man who goes to the effort of literally sculpting their body to look like a woman is a transgender character, my dude. They might be a trans woman or non-binary or just a femboy, but that level of overt and deliberate femininity, down to the level of embodiment, is a break from normative cis manhood.

See, if they have the money, plenty of men in the western world can acquire DIY hormones in order to feminize their bodies in real life, regardless of whether they're "really trans" or not. We are already in a cyberpunk future of body sculpting -- if you actually mean what you say, are you going to put your money where your mouth is, and treat every transmisogynistic figure in media as a potential crossdressing man?

It's not dissonant at all. Video games, I find, do not provide the best escapism by showing us an ideal world, free of pain or malice or unenlightened behaviour. It provides escapism by allowing the player to become the master of his own fate through conflict, and what better conflict then being thrust into a world that does not wholly share you morality? Nothing breeds conflict like a dystopia, whether it's a pseudo-medieval realm full of dragons, a facsimile of the real world, or a cyberpunk future. The worst it is, the more motivated the player becomes in entering it, and living in it.

Yes, and by its very nature as a world where the player can become the master of their own fate, this setting intrinsically cannot be an authentic depiction of cyberpunk dystopia.

Like, do you think that an ordinary person can defeat, survive, or escape from brutal surveillance capitalism in the way that a protagonist can?
 
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I'll add some more thoughts here since it seems to not be clear for some.

That the advertisement could be a throw away in game advertisement could be potentially fine. On the scale of how much is in the game, it's a pretty small thing on the production end. I'd be more ok with it being representative of the corporate dystopian marketing if it got nicely lamp-shaded or we had strong compelling NB characters with some actual thought put into them. Hell, it's more effort but allowing the option for player characters to not have to follow a binary is pretty core to a roleplaying experience. If we had more then just a shitty throw away advertisement, that could fit into the greater context of things. What's being asked for isn't the world here.

We don't know what else is coming, but the problem is, I don't actually trust CDPR to think about this beyond "Haha, isn't this a nice quick joke?" I don't even expect it from average devs, so why should I expect it from the devs who have been worse then the average? They haven't done anything to earn that trust. When it's something that is personal for a great many people's beings and it's relegated to a simple crap advertisement, that's pretty shit.
 
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I'm actually having trouble understanding why this poster is a bad thing even in context, because to me it's actually a pretty telling image in the sense it seems to be normalizing trans people a fair amount, even as it is sexually objectifying and exploitative. I'll try to explain myself:

What exactly is the intent, by the writers, in doing that? Is it porn? Maybe, but it hardly seems like that was the goal, given the fact the game doesn't shy away from actual nudity in the game it seems odd that they wouldn't just use porn if the intent was porn. Is it a joke? Like a Saint's Row style parody about how shocking and strange the world is and trying to make people laugh at the outlandishness? It doesn't seem like it, at least not from the way the image is shot. Now it could be worse in the actual game itself, and I wouldn't discount that being possible. If I had to guess I'd say it seems like the goal is to show how different the world is from ours simply by how normal an image like this would be. Now that's bad in the sense it relies on our world being so shitty the idea that an ad featuring a trans woman as a pin-up would shock and startle us. Certainly, I don't expect any insight into the trans issue discourse given such an image, but given CDPR's track record on certain topics, I'd think not entering the discourse is a smarter play.

Now given that I can see why people would be offended by the image. In the same way, I understand why people find trans porn offensive in concept, or why people get pissed at the fetishization of gay or lesbianism in porn, or minorities in porn, and so on. It's a valid reason to be upset, and I'd even support asking CDPR to remove the image from the game (it should take two seconds for them to go into the image files and hit delete). I also understand why people would be pissed that it's using transwomen as a sexual image without actually engaging with trans issues, but is that really different from cisgendered women? Like you could argue that using sex to sell is gross, but it's so common in our world people barely register it. Had the woman in the image been cis would anyone even have noticed it in that screenshot? Would anyone talk about it? If anything the woman is more covered up than many women in advertisements I've seen in the mall.

You can argue it's demeaning and dehumanizing, and you'd be right, which basically makes it an advertisement. The only thing that makes this image notable is that she is trans and not cis. That's it. Now that's a big difference, but with how out of the way the image is and how little attention seems to be drawn to it, to the point that in motion you'd likely miss it, I'd say the intent of the writers is to say that there isn't actually that much difference in the world of Cyberpunk.
 
Or you remember the plot of Altered Carbon, showing what the Corp Rich would do with functional Immortality - ie, just use it to fuck over everyone else forever, and destroy it. Just saying, can you see something like that being used in a good way?

Eh, use it yourself I guess. :)

Check out Larry Niven's short story 'Limits' for an interesting take on 'available immortality'
 
Well if there's no way to release immortality ethically I probably won't bother with this game. I am too tired to deal with this stuff.

I'm not sure what you were expecting. Cyberpunk as a whole has never been uncritically pro-transhuman. Now it often portrays certain transhuman ideas as awesome but also functions on the idea that ultimately there will be no grand end-of-history golden age caused by new technology. That human greed and apathy will make that world just as flawed as our own if not more so.

To paraphrase someone I knew on RPG.net back in the mid-00s, "Transhumanism is about how technology will eventually help us overcome the problems that have, up until now, been endemic to human nature. Cyberpunk is about how technology won't."

So, if you're expecting traditional Cyberpunk to portray transhuman ideas like immortality as an unqualified good thing you should fight for then you're out of luck. Because a rejection of the transhumanist ethic is baked into traditional Cyberpunk.

If you want a more positive spin on transhumanism in Cyberpunk than you're going to have to turn to Post-Cyberpunk offerings like Transmetropolitan and Ghost in the Shell where things still aren't perfect but technology is portrayed in a more positive/neutral manner than older Cyberpunk.
 
Probably not because most folks aren't even aware CP2020 even existed and not many people seem to be aware that Pondsmith himself is working with CDPR.


There were a handful earlier in this thread who argued that if the game didn't have multiple pronouns then it should be canceled.


Told you. :V


This goes back to the original metaplot in CP2020.
In it Saburo Arasaka funded the creation of a computer program called Soulkiller. The program was designed to rip out the minds of anyone whose connected to the Net and to a secure Arasaka server. (Forcible uploading.) for interrogation or imprisonment.
The secondary goal was also allowing for Resleeving, sort of important for Saburo since by the time of CP2020 he was in his early hundreds and wanted to prolong his life by any means necessary.

Johnny Silverhand and his crew sought to destroy the Soulkiller program. (He got roped into it originally because his Girlfriend Alt Cunningham was the actual designer who was on the run because she realized just how stupidly dangerous and immoral her work was. She also became one of it's first victims.) the end of the 2020 metaplot saw the Arasaka tower nuked, copies of Soulkiller destroyed and the last copy used to Rip out the soul of Saburo's oldest son.
Looks like the plot is about finding that last copy. (Soulkiller combined with the perfected fast grown clones developed in the Home of the Brave adventure means ethical immortality without any bodysnatching....Although no idea how the HoTB adventure canonically ends so those perfected clones might not exist.)
I remember the adventure 'Firestorm' I believe that was a hot mess. The PCs were sent in by Blackhand to raid the Arasaka mainframe of data and found the upload of Saburo's son who was feeding info to Blackhand I think. The adventure made a point of saying that it was the PC's choice, data or son and that communication to the outside was cut off so it that the PC's time to shine.
But the right choice of course was to get the son. The ending parts basically went on about how if the PCs grabbed the data, that they should be required to go back and get the son because he had the codes to decrypt it. Bleh.
 
Like, do you think that an ordinary person can defeat, survive, or escape from brutal surveillance capitalism in the way that a protagonist can?

Well, not without, say, being augmented, aided by the ghost of THE Rockerboy trapped inside your head and holding what is implied to be the key to digital immortality... Which, in this game, just so happens to be the case!

Mind you, I get what you're saying, but why would I want an escapist fantasy where I am Joe Average? Because I already AM Joe Average. There's nothing special about me, nothing out of the ordinary that allows me to overcome the difficulties of my world, nevermind the difficulties of living in a dystopian cyberpunk universe. I'd need an item of power, at the very least, before entering any imaginary world as myself. Otherwise I'd be screwed!

Actually that's the beauty of a dystopian cyberpunk setting: no matter how crappy it is, a hero can still rise from anywhere... they just need the right cyberware. For the low, low price of 5000 credits you too can punch holes into concrete!
 
biologically, we should all die at 20; nature is done with us once we've reached reproductive maturity, and the half-century on top of that first-world citizens on average can expect just pisses Mommy Dearest Nature off to no end QED every degenerative condition ever. You could blame medicine for every crime ever committed by someone over 20 - you might as well say that everyone should die at 20 to put humanity "in balance with Nature". Pfui!

This. Is. Not. How. Evolution. Works.
 
You are welcome to prove otherwise, if you like.
Right. So you have literally no way of proving that the characters trans either...Other then defaulting to the idea that only women can wear makeup or wear provocative female coded clothing.

Well if there's no way to release immortality ethically I probably won't bother with this game. I am too tired to deal with this stuff.
Even if their was a way an ethical way of releasing Soulkiller to the public the masses don't have the resources to actually take advantage of it unless their happy to just exist as digital ghosts floating around the net.
It'd quickly be a tool for the wealthy to prolong their lives since their the only one's who would have the resources to get new bodies.

Forgetting the fact that soulkiller is basically a gun you can use to bodyjack people or rip their souls out of their body from around the world and that releasing it into the wide world means everyone from governments to gangs can use it since the program is pretty much just software.

Is it so hard for you to understand that CDPR has earned very little faith in this regard?

Because right now I see you fighting tooth and nail against something that CD Project and their subsidiaries have a bad track record with and acting like the expression of worry is terrible and how dare people have such a lack of trust? Frankly the amount of stanning energy coming from you could fuel the whole electricity bill of the project.

I'm largely interested in the game and you are ridiculous.
As far as I'm aware the only legit complaint that can be levied at them in regards to transgender people is a PR person told a really dumb transphobic joke....And then the Company apologized and sacked the PR guy.

I mean hell....Is there anything else that I'm missing?
Not putting in non-binary pronouns while unfortunate doesn't really constitute an attack on the transgender community. Especially since a lot of transgender people would use male or female pronouns as whichever reflects their gender identity anyway..I can see why they don't want to divert a sizable amount of time, energy and funds to create an option only a small percentage of people would ever bother using.

So yeah, sorry I'm not outraged? :/

To begin with, "queer" is not exactly a gender, and it's not mutually exclusive with womanhood, and the very advertisement is about "mixing it up"; it invokes androgyny implicitly (through the innuendo of mixture) as well as explicitly (through the image of the effeminate sex object with a phallus).

The broader problem is that it doesn't fucking matter if this woman is a woman or a man. They're a fictionalized model on a poster in a universe that is itself fictional. To the audience, this character can be read as a cis woman who installed a dick, or as an effeminate man, or as a trans woman, but this character still serves a sexualized transfemme; "women with penises", "effeminate men", and "effeminate male sex objects" in particular are all popular symbols of trans womanhood. It's no coincidence that men try to fuck us transfemmes as if we're the gay men, tr*ps, and futanari they've seen in their porn.
Firstly, I didn't say Queer was a gender. But it does encompass non-normative and often radical non-assimilationist sexual or gender minorities which androgyny slots in well with.....Soooo I don't know why your pinging me on it's usage. :/

Secondly.....So? It's a poster ad made most likely by a corporation intent on hawking a soft drink by exploiting the human body. Would it be better if it were depicting a woman? Or a guy? Everyone is exploited to one degree or another, especially in this setting.

Anyone born a man who goes to the effort of literally sculpting their body to look like a woman is a transgender character, my dude. They might be a trans woman or non-binary or just a femboy, but that level of overt and deliberate femininity, down to the level of embodiment, is a break from normative cis manhood.
Your using the term rather broadly. The most commonly used def afterall have to do with people whose gender identity is the opposite of their assigned sex.
Non-Binary, Genderqueer and Fluid folks don't quite seem to fit in that particular hole.
But honestly that seems more like arguing semantics as I have heard people use the term transgender broadly enough to also include people who cross-dress regardless of their gender identity.

Also honey, I'm swish as fuck. I already don't fall into that neat little category of 'normative cis-manhood.'
Heck, I wear cowboy boots and work jeans and people could still pick me out from a mile away. XD
I don't think Cis-Manhood is an all encompassing thing like you seem to think it is.

See, if they have the money, plenty of men in the western world can acquire DIY hormones in order to feminize their bodies in real life, regardless of whether they're "really trans" or not. We are already in a cyberpunk future of body sculpting -- if you actually mean what you say, are you going to put your money where your mouth is, and treat every transmisogynistic figure in media as a potential crossdressing man?
Doubtful, though mostly due to the fact that medical science isn't nearly as good or as safe as your thinking it is.
Futzing around with hormones even with an endocrinologist monitoring everything can throw your health off kilter.
DIYing yourself is a good way to get sick.

I'm not sure what you were expecting. Cyberpunk as a whole has never been uncritically pro-transhuman. Now it often portrays certain transhuman ideas as awesome but also functions on the idea that ultimately there will be no grand end-of-history golden age caused by new technology. That human greed and apathy will make that world just as flawed as our own if not more so.

To paraphrase someone I knew on RPG.net back in the mid-00s, "Transhumanism is about how technology will eventually help us overcome the problems that have, up until now, been endemic to human nature. Cyberpunk is about how technology won't."

So, if you're expecting traditional Cyberpunk to portray transhuman ideas like immortality as an unqualified good thing you should fight for then you're out of luck. Because a rejection of the transhumanist ethic is baked into traditional Cyberpunk.

If you want a more positive spin on transhumanism in Cyberpunk than you're going to have to turn to Post-Cyberpunk offerings like Transmetropolitan and Ghost in the Shell where things still aren't perfect but technology is portrayed in a more positive/neutral manner than older Cyberpunk.
I actually tried explaining in the thread a while back that Cyberpunk and Transhumanism as extensions of the Enlightenment and Romanticism periods.
Cyberpunk is at odds with Transhumanism as this goes back to the century long debate between Romanticism and Enlightenment with Transhumanist media oftentimes depicting a future of social equality, prosperity and eliminating the frailities and frustrations born of the human condition through science and reason. Basically the idea that science and technology will make save mankind and society better....Cyberpunk on the other hand? It's Romanticism wherein it looks at science and society and the promise of a bright future and instead spits and shrugs and points out that humans will always be human....With all that entails.
 
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Right. So you have literally no way of proving that the characters trans either...Other then defaulting to the idea that only women can wear makeup or wear provocative female coded clothing.

Let me level with you: I don't even think the 'character' is anything at all. The issue is rather the presentation of something outside the gender binary as trashy which, given CDPR's record, is off-putting.
 
As far as I'm aware the only legit complaint that can be levied at them in regards to transgender people is a PR person told a really dumb transphobic joke....And then the Company apologized and sacked the PR guy.

I mean hell....Is there anything else that I'm missing?
Not putting in non-binary pronouns while unfortunate doesn't really constitute an attack on the transgender community. Especially since a lot of transgender people would use male or female pronouns as whichever reflects their gender identity anyway..I can see why they don't want to divert a sizable amount of time, energy and funds to create an option only a small percentage of people would ever bother using.

So yeah, sorry I'm not outraged? :/

If that's what you took away from my argument (that not putting in pronouns is somehow an attack on the community) I think you need to reread what I've said. Although frankly from a project standpoint, it's not actually all that amount of time and budget to just use different pronouns or neutral ones, in the scale of voice work budgets etc. It's essentially, at worst, another 2 to 3 takes per dialogue line. Considering that the Polish government is basically bankrolling them and the churn that CDPR can go through employees at and not care, they can do that.

It's not a matter of you being outraged though. It's a matter of you not understanding why others are and can't put their faith in CDP as a whole, and then stanning just the same. On top of the initial anti-trans tweet, we have a number of other concerning behaviors coming from them and their subsidiaries. With the amount it's talked about I'd at least think you would note some of their other social media gaffs. It's a bad track record and more then a single mistake. Most of their apologies are functionally non-apologies. Add in some of their other problems as a churn studio and there is an easy argument to have less faith in them to do something halfway decent.

Especially since, from this very thread, we can see what the genre of cyberpunk means for a lot of people, particularly minority. As a general concern that others have echoed, we are more then likely to get the "Wow, Cool Robot" gundam meme except for the genre of cyberpunk. That'd almost be ok as a large scale product, except punching down while doing it is not necessary and the actual amount of effort to do better isn't that high.
 
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