Congregation of Despair (Mafia - Second Attempt)

Okay, anyone want to convince me that I shouldn't vote for 1K right now?

Also, curtesy tag @1KBestK
We still don't have a night report from @Nanimani and given the, you know, watcher could confirm or deny stories here, that's risking scum hammer and, you know, us myslynching.

It should wait. ideally, we get unvotes at least until nani chimes in.
 
Looking like Dovah is definitely scum then. I guess if you all want to lose thw game you can vote fo me.
 
No, we really can't, because if none of the four involved are cult, then we could have three cult who could just hammer, without Dovah bothering to respond.

This is a potentially time sensitive issue.

And it's too late for me to hope scum just doesn't notice, since I've already gone and pointed it out.
We don't actually know there's a seperate cult yet. We just don't. It's better to go through all the potential cult leaders anyways, as iirc if we get the leader the rest are unculted? Even if that's not the way it works, we know that one of us at least is scum. I claimed doctor, nictis claimed vanilla, and now Dovah's made a try at claiming doctor. I don't know why Dovah's claim is so much more believable.
 
Does oshha's powers explicitly mention the cult?

It doesn't directly mention cult, but does explicitly mention vampires and goes out of its way to say I am protected from their vile corruption. I am still vulnerable to lynches, the teal killer and the day 1 holy vigilante.
 
It doesn't directly mention cult, but does explicitly mention vampires and goes out of its way to say I am protected from their vile corruption. I am still vulnerable to lynches, the teal killer and the day 1 holy vigilante.
Okay, then it makes more sense that the vampires are the ones who are infecting people, not a seperate cult group.
 
Looking like Dovah is definitely scum then. I guess if you all want to lose thw game you can vote fo me.
I mean this isn't a very compelling argument. Pointing out evidence he's lying, or who you think the other scum are etc is far more convincing.

Like I admit i'm side-eying Oshha trying to pin me to you as scum-buddies while claiming total culting immunity when we've seen no evidence cult has a kill. Cult immunity is the one thing I've been betting on the serial killer having.

I'd been starting to think I'd been too paranoid. But this throws scum!Ossha back into question- I'm not sure how even an every night cult would have reliably played around that? He basically stops culting on two slots- himself and one other- each night.

We don't actually know there's a seperate cult yet. We just don't. It's better to go through all the potential cult leaders anyways, as iirc if we get the leader the rest are unculted? Even if that's not the way it works, we know that one of us at least is scum. I claimed doctor, nictis claimed vanilla, and now Dovah's made a try at claiming doctor. I don't know why Dovah's claim is so much more believable.
Because if you are town Dovah probably gets killed for counterclaiming, assuming this isn't a game ending last turn gambit which, unfortunately, is plausible, but then it is also the case that Dovah's claim is consistent with... well, him saying he tried to visit Nictis n1, him thinking SK must be a strongman, and you, I thought was town because I thought you were the vig and that's what you were hiding and that me blocking you n2 was why no kill.

I could see a case either way, but it slants in favor of the counter claim here, I think, unless Nani caught Dovah visiting someone other than QT/not visiting QT.
 
I mean this isn't a very compelling argument. Pointing out evidence he's lying, or who you think the other scum are etc is far more convincing.

Like I admit i'm side-eying Oshha trying to pin me to you as scum-buddies while claiming total culting immunity when we've seen no evidence cult has a kill. Cult immunity is the one thing I've been betting on the serial killer having.

I'd been starting to think I'd been too paranoid. But this throws scum!Ossha back into question- I'm not sure how even an every night cult would have reliably played around that? He basically stops culting on two slots- himself and one other- each night.


Because if you are town Dovah probably gets killed for counterclaiming, assuming this isn't a game ending last turn gambit which, unfortunately, is plausible, but then it is also the case that Dovah's claim is consistent with... well, him saying he tried to visit Nictis n1, him thinking SK must be a strongman, and you, I thought was town because I thought you were the vig and that's what you were hiding and that me blocking you n2 was why no kill.

I could see a case either way, but it slants in favor of the counter claim here, I think, unless Nani caught Dovah visiting someone other than QT/not visiting QT.
Lovely, his counter claim is clearly more accurate because of... something he himself said and because I didn't end up lining up how you rhought I would.
 
[X] Null

Got burned by the hammer once already this game, I'd rather not have that surprise again, even if I'm certain 1KBestK is scum. Town thrives on conversation, and votes with such a low hammer just cut that off.
 
Lovely, his counter claim is clearly more accurate because of... something he himself said and because I didn't end up lining up how you rhought I would.
You have a shield of "unholy corruption." How is that Town, again? I'd love to believe you, but a self-healing doctor and a second doctor is way, way, way too powerful for Town.
It doesn't directly mention cult, but does explicitly mention vampires and goes out of its way to say I am protected from their vile corruption. I am still vulnerable to lynches, the teal killer and the day 1 holy vigilante.
Especially with Oshha's Total Immunity to Cult. At least I can be turned against Town; someone the SK has no reason to kill and can never be made cult is absolutely insane for any setup. Even if we do have that (which, frankly, is looking less and less likely, because I can see no way for cult to get around Oshha after they've claimed), there's no way we also have two docs.
 
Like. We don't have any role cards but our own. Yes, Dovah could be lying. So could you. So people have to weigh the evidence of behaviors, signs of lies, and so on, for who is most likely to be telling the truth.

Dovah previously said he tried to visit Nictis n1, but was roleblocked by me, which I know to be true. He says he self healed night 2, and as I recall QTesseract said he visited no one night 2.

These line up, to at least a degree. I don't think we have anyone yet vouching for your claims, at all. Since you claim to have tried to heal the person who claims Immunity To Evil Things last night, and Oshha hasn't claimed being attacked and then healed or anything to lend credence... well, I'm not seeing any supporting evidence for your claim, at all, and some odd flavor contradictions.
 
Like. We don't have any role cards but our own. Yes, Dovah could be lying. So could you. So people have to weigh the evidence of behaviors, signs of lies, and so on, for who is most likely to be telling the truth.

Dovah previously said he tried to visit Nictis n1, but was roleblocked by me, which I know to be true. He says he self healed night 2, and as I recall QTesseract said he visited no one night 2.

These line up, to at least a degree. I don't think we have anyone yet vouching for your claims, at all. Since you claim to have tried to heal the person who claims Immunity To Evil Things last night, and Oshha hasn't claimed being attacked and then healed or anything to lend credence... well, I'm not seeing any supporting evidence for your claim, at all, and some odd flavor contradictions.
If you're not going to listen to me, then stop pussyfooting around. I'd prefer to not be left hanging.
 
If you're not going to listen to me, then stop pussyfooting around. I'd prefer to not be left hanging.
I am listening to you. I just don't believe you're the one more likely to be telling the truth. If you have supporting evidence to your claims, or can pinpoint a definite lie or weird contradiction in what Dovah said pre-claim to now, I'd love to hear it. I don't want to myslynch, if you are actually town. I just don't find myself seeing strong evidence of it.
 
I am listening to you. I just don't believe you're the one more likely to be telling the truth. If you have supporting evidence to your claims, or can pinpoint a definite lie or weird contradiction in what Dovah said pre-claim to now, I'd love to hear it. I don't want to myslynch, if you are actually town. I just don't find myself seeing strong evidence of it.
Yes, there's a pretty big and obvious lie, and that's them claiming doctor when I know for a fact that I am a doctor. However, as I just said, you're not going to listen to me on that, so just lynch me. If that's what it takes for you to figure it out, just do it already.
 
and that's them claiming doctor when I know for a fact that I am a doctor.
The dilemma is that we have two people saying 'I'm doctor, lynch them for lying'. What external evidence, for those of us who don't have your role PM to look at, of course, do you to convince us it's him and not you that's the actually lying one?

I'd love for Dovah's story to have an obvious contradiction I could jump on. I'm not seeing one, and your claims come closer to that, though I admit neither one of you as actually self contradicted per se that I've noticed.
 
The closest thing there is to 'proof' is when I made that meme post about 'if you're the doctor, don't reveal yourself' and then immediately 'revealed' myself as the doctor, which was bonus points funny for me because I am actually the doctor, but that joke could have been written without that in mind as well.
 
I'm not sure how even an every night cult would have reliably played around that? He basically stops culting on two slots- himself and one other- each night.

First of all, I didn't make the role. It was given to me from Cyricubed so if you don't think it is balanced, you can take it up with them.

Secondly, there are multiple ways. I could be lynched, I could be killed by the vigilante or the serial killer, I could be roleblocked and I could use my lighting rod on someone who is already scum. The idea that you think that my role can't be worked around is kind of ridiculous since there are multiple ways. They could get enough people to force through a lynch. They could cult a killer or a roleblocker.

Thirdly, you have been weirdly focused on me for some reason and focused on getting the teal killer over the cult. You started off targeting me despite me claiming an anti-cult role because you thought I might be the teal killer and conveniently ignore the fact we still had a cult running about and I had claimed an anti-cult role. Your reasoning for targeting me that if you didn't, it would mean either doing nothing or something counter-productive, but you ignore that fact that if I was being truthful about my anti-cult role, blocking me is also counterproductive.

You have been very insistent that I was scum, first a serial killer than cult. Your argument is that it has to be me whilst ignoring the fact that the lack of night 3 kill meant it could have been Broken Base as the teal killer. Your arguments that I am scum seem to be starting with the conclusion that I am scum and working backwards to justify it.

Frankly, your theories for why I am scum don't add up.
One, you were scum-reading me, but don't explain why before declaring me serial killer because I would apparently be able to claim roles that I don't know or understand. How would I be able to claim that I am actually lightning rod when I would have no way of knowing what lighting rod is? If I was transporting serial killer, I wouldn't be able to claim lightning rod because I wouldn't know what that was. Maybe if I was part of the cult I could have my cultmates explain it to me, but if that was the case, why would I target another member of the cult on night 2?

But there isn't a convenient list of all the terms for me to reference and I am reliant on asking those in the thread for what terms mean. For that matter, no one has bothered to explain to me what a transporter is despite you have been accusing me of having that role on different occasions.
still don't know what a transporter is and I assume it is some kind of self-teleporter)

Two, as I mentioned above, your logic for roleblocking me was based around targeting the serial killer rather than the still active cult. The logic used was shoddy as you believed the claims of Nictis and QT and declare targeting them to be counterproductive, but when it comes to me, you just ignore my own claim and refuse to even mention it whilst declaring that if you didn't go for me, you would be either doing nothing or being counterproductive.

If you had bothered to apply the same logic used on Nictis and QT to me and given me the benefit of the doubt like you had for both of them, you would have concluded that targeting me would be counterproductive as you would have for Nictis and QT. This is because if I am truthful about my claim, then targeting me helps the cult, which is beneficial for scum and harmful the town. The only reason I can see you targeting me would be either if you had gapping holes in your logic and acted like an idiot or if you were cult, believed my claim and targeted me to help your cult whilst hurting town.

You then went on to theories that I had been culted night 2 because Nani got culted night 1. You then went on to claim I was the cult leader and culted Nani. In the first case, it doesn't work under what I claimed wasn't roleblocked night 2 so even before I revealed the full extent of my power, I should have been immune to the culting. In the latter case is something I find pretty ridiculous as it implies that I am both the cult leader and the teal killer at once.

After that, you decide that I am lying about my scum immunity on the grounds that cult immunity is too OP for the town to have.
Like I admit i'm side-eying Oshha trying to pin me to you as scum-buddies while claiming total culting immunity when we've seen no evidence cult has a kill. Cult immunity is the one thing I've been betting on the serial killer having.

I'd been starting to think I'd been too paranoid. But this throws scum!Ossha back into question- I'm not sure how even an every night cult would have reliably played around that? He basically stops culting on two slots- himself and one other- each night.
However, Nictis has already pointed out that it can be worked around as while it seems like it is too powerful, it has weak points if I re-direct or get targeted by the wrong actions such as the serial killer or the vigilante, especially if one of those is a strongman (which blocks heals from what Dovah says)
Oshha's role just doesn't work well in a Cult Game, or rather it works
too well.
Except for when it brings the Vigilante or SK to them, but that makes sense as a risk for a Town redirector.
Furthermore, I am still vulnerable to lynching. If the cult manages to get my lynched at the end of the day, there is nothing I can do about that.

However, Dovah as made the same point about my cult immunity being too powerful for the cult to get around so you making that claim isn't necessarily a point against you. On the other hand, Dovah is prone to exaggerating stuff.
Especially with Oshha's Total Immunity to Cult. At least I can be turned against Town; someone the SK has no reason to kill and can never be made cult is absolutely insane for any setup. Even if we do have that (which, frankly, is looking less and less likely, because I can see no way for cult to get around Oshha after they've claimed), there's no way we also have two docs.

Given how you are focusing on me as scum and targeting me as scum during the night based of reasoning you haven't explained and you have ignoring the fact that if I am being truthful, your actions are actively helping cult. According to you, I could be the teal killer, but that would require me to have knowledge about the game that I novice like me doesn't have or for me to be part of the cult and have my cultmates explain it to me. However I could have only been culted night two or three, which is after I made my claim, so while your logic for me being the serial killer and lying about my claim, it only works if this wasn't my first game and is dependent on bias confirmation based off of some seriously shoddy logic.

Frankly, I find it far more believable that you are cult (recruited cult not starter cult) and believe my claims of being a lightning rod that is either partially or fully cult immune. If you thought I was fully cult immune, you want to shut me down while someone recruited someone else. If you thought I was partially immune, you would have shut me down while 1K visited me to recruit me. I am personally favouring the latter as I think either 1K or Nictis are the scum recruiters.

Ultimately, it is your shoddy logic for targeting me during the night that convinces me that you are scum as it only makes sense for you to have targeted me if you are scum.
 
Cause my current theory is that @Oshha is Serial Killer Transporter and transported himself with people to claim to have lightning rodded them.

Okay, Terrabrand claims I am a Serial Killer Transporters even through that would require me, someone who is playing their first game, to have knowledge that they won't have.

It is possible Broken Base was teal, but I was town reading her and scum reading Oshha, so I went with my gut.

They chose me because they were 'scum-reading' me, but don't mention why they were scum-reading me or what brought them to that conclusion.

I didn't want to block QT because I still was townreading them and tracker has decent potential to catch a killer. Nani even more so for the same since watcher can't just mis someone.

I didn't want to block Nictis because the only way I can see him as Teal Serial Killer claiming vanilla while pushing the idea I can catch the SK by blocking them is if he is roleblock immune. So he's either roleblock immune or not the SK and either way blocking him doesn't catch anyone and... Well, I'm not really feeling cult leader?

That left Dovah, who I already blocked and so, again, is either roleblock immune or not the SK and I wasn't reading them as cult leader.

Ditto 1K, except I was pretty sure they were the vig to boot. And I didn't want to stop the possibility of a town directed kill.

So. Well, that left blocking Oshha or... Doing nothing, or doing something that felt counterproductive one way or another.

They then go onto their reasoning. They take QT and Nani at face value for their claims and give them the benefit of the doubt. They also believe Nictis that they are
vanilla and give them the benefit of the doubt as well. After that, they go onto Dovah and 1K and state that they didn't want to target them because they couldn't be the serial killer unless they were roleblock immune plus a bit about 1K being the vigilante. At this point, they are looking for the serial killer over the still active cult.

Terrabrand then goes onto me saying that they have to target me because it is either that or doing nothing or something counterproductive. Not only do they refuse to give reasoning for targeting me other than the process of elimination, that process of elimination logic doesn't work because they have refused to give me the benefit of the doubt that they gave QT, Nani and Nictis. If they had been fairly looking at all four of us from a town perspective, they would have concluded that shutting me down would have been counterproductive as it would have stop me from stopping a culting action and that would have hurt town whilst benefiting cult.

There are further holes in their logic. When I claimed Lighting Rod, it was when Nani and QT both targeted Nictis, but got redirected to me. Before I reveal myself, QT was claiming that Nictis had self-visited while Nani was claiming that Nictis had been visited by QT. If I was a transporter and not a lighting rod like I claimed, then QT would have spotted Nictis having self-visited, which would be impossible if they are a
vanilla
.

If Terrabrand believe that Nani was a watcher, QT was a tracker and Nictis was a vanilla like they did in their reasoning for targeting me, then it is impossible for me to be a Serial Killer transporter because QT wouldn't have been redirected to me and Nictis couldn't be vanilla because they self-visited night 1 under Terrabrand's logic.

So given how flawed @Terrabrand's logic is, they are either an idiot or scum and I believe it is the latter. However, I believe that they did not start as cult and I believe Dovah over 1K so I think that we should vote for 1K over Terrabrand.
 
Please focus on my second long post instead of the first one. It is more concise, less rambling and focuses more on why I think Terrabrand is cult. The first one wasn't meant to be posted.
 
I plan to vote for 1K barring new information from Nani, but since Nani might provide new information, I am waiting on them before making my vote.
 
They chose me because they were 'scum-reading' me, but don't mention why they were scum-reading me or what brought them to that conclusion.

Wowza walls of text. I'm in no fit state to respond to most of this right now, though I might try later, but unless you think I'm lying, and even if cult I'd have no reason to lie about this part, I was scumreading you so hard when looking through the thread before submitting my night action I only didn't block you as Scummiest Player Around when I was reminded by reaching the relevant part that, oh yeah, he made a claim with multiple people backing it to some meaningful degree.

So unless you think swarmingu was culted before I replaced in, why would I possibly lie about that?

Certainly, you could argue I might be lying about how my read has evolved, but really, what's the point about lying about nearly roleblocking you before going 'wait but there's the claim'?

No, I've been scum reading you all game and nothing has run against that. The fact that your power seems now entirely unbelievable, and that you are claiming to have previously been lying doesn't help.
 
Ignore the first one. It is rambling, unconcise and only got posted by accident.
Going to quote this for compactness, but you make a lot of good points, and I'm concerned. Cult is a problem, and you made a good point about SK vs Cult. I still have problems seeing how you can exist in the setup.

You're not incorrect that your claim would be masterful from a solo newbie. On the other hand, there's lists of roles online that can be found. I believe your claim about not having a list of roles, if only because I didn't for my first few games. Of course, once I was scum, I started looking for roles to fakeclaim. Lightning rod, cult immune, is hardly a bad fakeclaim, nor a hard one to find, and frankly you're competent enough I could buy it from you. Yes, impressive for a new player, but hardly impossible.

However, you have lightning rod, absolutely and totally cult immune. Yes. You could be killed by accident. But if you claim, nobody is going to kill you. Not the vig, not the SK, cult can't touch you ... you're unstoppable. I'm trying to think of tougher roles and I'm really only coming up with GM confirmed role variants. The only way you're likely to die is by vig or by lynch, but with a usual Town it's unlikely for you to be either.

Well, you've managed to solidly wreck my Town core, because now I'm scumreading your fakeclaim, and I'm scumreading Terra's monofocus on the SK. I know 1KBestK is scum. The question is if cult is high enough priority than dealing with known scum. Of course, 1KBestK could be cultmaster as much as they could be SK.
 
@Terrabrand My problem with you 'scumreading' me is that you are using that instead of giving reasoning why you think I might be scum. You keep saying I am scum, but don't give reasoning for it. Instead you just say you are scumreading me.

So just stop saying that you are scum-reading me and give some actual reasoning for why. You say this:
No, I've been scum reading you all game and nothing has run against that.
Now explain it. Which of my actions have led to believe that? Because right now you are just saying I am scum, but refusing to elaborate.

The fact that your power seems now entirely unbelievable, and that you are claiming to have previously been lying doesn't help.

How is it unbelievable? What grounds do you say that on?

I also made it quite clear what I lied about and that was that my cult immunity was full rather than the partial I was claiming in the hopes of baiting the cult into targeting me with recruitment. I have been completely upfront about my lighting rod ability and it has been confirmed by other players that you claim to believe and the only way that I don't have a lighting rod ability would be if of QT, Nani and Nictis, at leas two of them are lying.

But if you claim, nobody is going to kill you. Not the vig, not the SK, cult can't touch you ... you're unstoppable. I'm trying to think of tougher roles and I'm really only coming up with GM confirmed role variants.

A culted Vigilante or serial killer could as could the cult if they got enough people culted to push a lynch through.

Also, what are these GM confirmed role variants?

I'm scumreading your fakeclaim

My fakeclaim?
 
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