Congregation of Despair (Mafia - Second Attempt)

Assume everyone already thinks there's a good chance you're lying. I had much the same problem when I joined the SV mafia community, and I think that's the biggest thing that helped me adapt my mindset to one that seemed town. If your goal is to help out your fellow town, you can't just give the truth and hope they'll accept it, no matter how much simpler that would make the game. Also, @Nictis has some bad habits in this, but he also has some really good ones to copy in terms of staying alive while seeming scummy to basically everyone.
Truth is an illusion.

But yeah, people don't need to know all the little details if those details seem to contradict you or could frame you as scum. I learned that when I revealed that I was a Miller early on and got accused of being scum for it.

That is not to say that you should lie, especially about mechanics. Lying is something that both Town and Scum do, but if you lie about mechanics you can be called out on it later. Oshha's lie about being cultable was a good one, it couldn't be contradicted and could potentially bait out a Cult action, but would have been better off with the truth originally since there was a Watcher known as well. QT's lie (Misdirection, actually. No direct lie but they definitely gave the idea that Dovah had to be Vanilla) about Dovah not taking an action was a bad one because it could be called out mechanically by Dovah's reveal. They could have just as easily said that they didn't see anything worth reporting to achieve the same goal.

For both of them however, correcting the lie seemed more like "fixing" it to suit new interests, which pulled unfriendly attention onto them. Do not lie about mechanics except to trick the Scum. Lying about results is almost universally bad, deciding not to mention results that would hurt Town is okay.

As for activity, my personal way of doing things is to take anything that makes me suspicous and reframe it so that the meaning is the same but the language is different and simpler. (Preview Edit: I meant stuff that made me feel suspicious, but it's good advice both ways. Simple language and reshuffling things can help get your point across to anyone who might miss it) Sharing this shows that you are paying attention and making note of things, important for scumhunting and appearing to be scumhunting is half the battle in appearing to be Town, regardless of alignment.

I personally have an issue where I come across as mocking while I do it, and most of the time it's because I am but sometimes it's accidental.

There are three things to look at when it comes to claims. Actions, balance, and fluff, in that order. Always remember that Mafia is a social game, no claim is foolproof (Unless if the GM verifies it) so look at what they do and how it fits in with what was known at the time (I cannot stress this enough, if someone is justifying their actions with info they only got after the fact, their actions weren't justified or were Scum actions. You're already doing this @1KBestK, but I'm writing more of a general guide right now for... Some reason) then look at the balance, see how roles would fit in with what is known. This usually has less info but when you see an issue that Scum can't work past then you have usually found a lie. Finally there's Fluff, fluff is the least important part for judging a claim, it's not uncommon for GMs to give out scummy fluff to Town roles, like the Vampire Town Mayor we had once, and it's not unusual for a pattern noticed to be a fluke or a deviance to be unintentional or a seperate reference. If someone outright claims some fluff that you know is wrong or that matches the Scum perfectly it's still worth calling out, but is still less important than the other two.

More activity related stuff to look Town... Get other people active. A silent game benefits scum, and is boring besides. It's actually NAI (Not Alignment Indicative) to me personally, but it looks good if you are trying to get other people to post, ask for thoughts on things, swing your vote around like a spotlight, activity is good for games and people talking is more data.

Don't defend people. This one is actually really important, Town doesn't care about specific players and seeing who is pushing to lynch who for why is important in determining Scum. That's not to say don't interfere, but if it's not an extremely important situation like MyLo or LyLo then defending someone else just looks like you have an attachment. You can still push against the wagons, say a certain wagon seems fairly pointless, pressure one of the people joining it, but getting in the way of the interrogation by answering for the person being lynched always looks suspicious.

There's a certain narrative in people's minds, a particularly dumb one in my opinion but still one to keep in mind, someone who is innocent doesn't need to defend themselves. Mafia players are pretty good about not letting that narrative interfere, but finding someone more suspicious is almost always going to trump defending yourself. Unless if you are certain that the person driving the lynch is Town then attack the points against you rather than just explaining.

Annnd my mind is blanking. So... Here's a thing on looking Town and scumhunting I guess?
 
Truth is an illusion.

But yeah, people don't need to know all the little details if those details seem to contradict you or could frame you as scum. I learned that when I revealed that I was a Miller early on and got accused of being scum for it.

That is not to say that you should lie, especially about mechanics. Lying is something that both Town and Scum do, but if you lie about mechanics you can be called out on it later. Oshha's lie about being cultable was a good one, it couldn't be contradicted and could potentially bait out a Cult action, but would have been better off with the truth originally since there was a Watcher known as well. QT's lie (Misdirection, actually. No direct lie but they definitely gave the idea that Dovah had to be Vanilla) about Dovah not taking an action was a bad one because it could be called out mechanically by Dovah's reveal. They could have just as easily said that they didn't see anything worth reporting to achieve the same goal.

For both of them however, correcting the lie seemed more like "fixing" it to suit new interests, which pulled unfriendly attention onto them. Do not lie about mechanics except to trick the Scum. Lying about results is almost universally bad, deciding not to mention results that would hurt Town is okay.

As for activity, my personal way of doing things is to take anything that makes me suspicous and reframe it so that the meaning is the same but the language is different and simpler. (Preview Edit: I meant stuff that made me feel suspicious, but it's good advice both ways. Simple language and reshuffling things can help get your point across to anyone who might miss it) Sharing this shows that you are paying attention and making note of things, important for scumhunting and appearing to be scumhunting is half the battle in appearing to be Town, regardless of alignment.

I personally have an issue where I come across as mocking while I do it, and most of the time it's because I am but sometimes it's accidental.

There are three things to look at when it comes to claims. Actions, balance, and fluff, in that order. Always remember that Mafia is a social game, no claim is foolproof (Unless if the GM verifies it) so look at what they do and how it fits in with what was known at the time (I cannot stress this enough, if someone is justifying their actions with info they only got after the fact, their actions weren't justified or were Scum actions. You're already doing this @1KBestK, but I'm writing more of a general guide right now for... Some reason) then look at the balance, see how roles would fit in with what is known. This usually has less info but when you see an issue that Scum can't work past then you have usually found a lie. Finally there's Fluff, fluff is the least important part for judging a claim, it's not uncommon for GMs to give out scummy fluff to Town roles, like the Vampire Town Mayor we had once, and it's not unusual for a pattern noticed to be a fluke or a deviance to be unintentional or a seperate reference. If someone outright claims some fluff that you know is wrong or that matches the Scum perfectly it's still worth calling out, but is still less important than the other two.

More activity related stuff to look Town... Get other people active. A silent game benefits scum, and is boring besides. It's actually NAI (Not Alignment Indicative) to me personally, but it looks good if you are trying to get other people to post, ask for thoughts on things, swing your vote around like a spotlight, activity is good for games and people talking is more data.

Don't defend people. This one is actually really important, Town doesn't care about specific players and seeing who is pushing to lynch who for why is important in determining Scum. That's not to say don't interfere, but if it's not an extremely important situation like MyLo or LyLo then defending someone else just looks like you have an attachment. You can still push against the wagons, say a certain wagon seems fairly pointless, pressure one of the people joining it, but getting in the way of the interrogation by answering for the person being lynched always looks suspicious.

There's a certain narrative in people's minds, a particularly dumb one in my opinion but still one to keep in mind, someone who is innocent doesn't need to defend themselves. Mafia players are pretty good about not letting that narrative interfere, but finding someone more suspicious is almost always going to trump defending yourself. Unless if you are certain that the person driving the lynch is Town then attack the points against you rather than just explaining.

Annnd my mind is blanking. So... Here's a thing on looking Town and scumhunting I guess?
You make some good points about defending people that I hadn't thought of enough yet. I also somewhat feel like actually experiencing what it's like to play as and with scum would help me the most, but RNG seems determined to keep me town.
 
Taking notes also seems pretty vital for keeping track of things. Do people here do that?
 
Taking notes also seems pretty vital for keeping track of things. Do people here do that?
When I'm actually on my game and have the time, yeah. It's not like a lot of notes, but keep track of claims, notable quotes, claimed actions or allusions to power. Just things that you don't want to forget or that might be useful later, If X is Scum, then quote Y kinda stuff. The conversation with the GM is usually a pretty good place for it, or Google Docs if you're building a case against someone but don't want to make it until you're sure or at a certain time.

If nothing else, keeping a votelog with brief notes of the reasoning provided is immensely helpful.
 
@Nictis I actually saw nothing. Dovah took no action that night. The exchange in question did not happen like that; the subtext is something I inserted later to make it look like I had beleived Dovah to be the doctor the entire time. It's something I out together afterward to fool people who weren't you, because I knew I could frame your disbeleif as you being scum and you already had us mostly figured out.
 
Four? Could thralls not vote? I mean, four of the three left being scum is a scum win right there; a vote couldn't be pushed without scum on it.
 
Anyway, I've decided that I'm going to skip cult-games in the future. I enjoyed this one, but it was too stressful and time consuming just trying to figure out who was scum and who was town and who was previously town, but now scum.

Finally there's Fluff, fluff is the least important part for judging a claim, it's not uncommon for GMs to give out scummy fluff to Town roles, like the Vampire Town Mayor we had once, and it's not unusual for a pattern noticed to be a fluke or a deviance to be unintentional or a seperate reference. If someone outright claims some fluff that you know is wrong or that matches the Scum perfectly it's still worth calling out, but is still less important than the other two.

I think I made a mistake thinking fluff was more important than it was because of a mixture of this being my first game and when I asked how my anti-cult, this was the response I got while I got a few paragraphs explaining my lightning rod power in depth.
So your second ability is simply a passive that implies some form of self-protection. Won't go into full detail of it as it is a closed set-up.
I had no actual game mechanics to go on and had only fluff to figure out how it worked. Because of this and my inexperience, I put plenty of stuff in the fluff because one of my powers was entirely fluff while the other one had heavily explained mechanics.
 
@Nictis I actually saw nothing. Dovah took no action that night. The exchange in question did not happen like that; the subtext is something I inserted later to make it look like I had beleived Dovah to be the doctor the entire time. It's something I out together afterward to fool people who weren't you, because I knew I could frame your disbeleif as you being scum and you already had us mostly figured out.
Y'know, I think I forgot for a moment there that I was actually right and that you were scum.

Still serves as a good example of why changing your story later gets people eying you though :V
 
Anyway, I've decided that I'm going to skip cult-games in the future.
^

I don't think I've ever enjoyed one more than I would've enjoyed a noncult game. Stars was fun, but entirely because of the maf's unique wincon. Maf *and* town working openly against Cult made the process enjoyable, even if there was no real hope once the cult immune died.
 
Y'know, I think I forgot for a moment there that I was actually right and that you were scum.

Still serves as a good example of why changing your story later gets people eying you though :V
Yeah, there was no good way around it. I looked like I was changing the story to fit new interests because I was, because when I watched dovah and revealed I was town, and when I claimed to know he was a doctor all along I was scum backing a fakeclaim.

That goes into a more general message, honestly. Not only should you be aware that people assume you're lying, you in turn should assume everyone else has a good chance of trying to deceive you. Take me, for instance; I unabashedly and repeatedly lie as both town and scum. I'm pretty sure I've lied about my powers more than I've told the truth; a heavy supermajority if the time if you include "telling the truth with the intent to deceive" as a lie. When I make a statement, if I'm paying attention, I'm not directly doing it because it's true or not, it's to serve a purpose. Even if I'm aligned with you, it can be good to remember that (secure QTs being the obvious exception, because I can explain everything I'm not saying in thread there).
 
Yeah, I am definitely skipping any cult games in the future. Almost everything in the game that left me feeling frustrated or annoyed when it was over is something related to it being a cult game. Because of that, I think that I'll find non-cult games more enjoyable (I still enjoyed this game).
 
Yeah, I am definitely skipping any cult games in the future. Almost everything in the game that left me feeling frustrated or annoyed when it was over is something related to it being a cult game. Because of that, I think that I'll find non-cult games more enjoyable (I still enjoyed this game).
I'm glad to hear that. I definitely think you're going to be a very good player once you have some experience.

To note, since Cyric didn't mention it, the cult chat's in my rolecard that Cyric posted if anyone wnats to read it.
 
Awards
So for the most part I'm going to point out either impressive things people did or simply good play. Might not hit everyone and a few are indeed joke awards.

Kingslayer- To @ComiTurtle for killing the king. Unfortunately the butler found him and thus could never spread his legend of such...

Double Edged Service- To @Broken Base For both killing a role intended to insure cult didn't snowball unchecked, and also subsequently cutting cult's capabilities in half.

All Eyes on me! : To @Nictis for being the target of 4 different night actions, despite having the stage stolen by Oshha.

Impressive 1st Showing: To @Oshha who for being a new-player had me asking pawn lelouch multiple times if he was really a new player, very good job overall.

Throw your reads out the window : To @Terrabrand for having joined late and then starting to build some ideas of who may or might not be scum...only to become scum that exact same night. r.i.p.

But we don't do anything... : To @Happerry , @Absum , and @Nictis for all being the only vanilla's in the game and only dying to the lynch.

Hand in Hand: To @Pawn Lelouch for helping advise me on the set-up and giving advice when asked.
 

Yeah, for your first game you did great, better than most and much better than my first game. I felt like I was stumbling around trying to get an idea of how to actually scum hunt adequately (and I swear I am to this day...which really disappoints me in myself). Watching you felt like watching someone who had a few games under their belt and knew the general idea of what they were doing. Not bad at all. You also picked your targets smartly for the most part. If Dovah hadn't been roleblocked you would have instead blocked the 1st cult attempt. Following that protecting the watcher at the time was a smart move given what info you had.
 
Yeah, for your first game you did great, better than most and much better than my first game. I felt like I was stumbling around trying to get an idea of how to actually scum hunt adequately (and I swear I am to this day...which really disappoints me in myself). Watching you felt like watching someone who had a few games under their belt and knew the general idea of what they were doing. Not bad at all. You also picked your targets smartly for the most part. If Dovah hadn't been roleblocked you would have instead blocked the 1st cult attempt. Following that protecting the watcher at the time was a smart move given what info you had.
No, it's just that it parses as though you called them Pawn Lelouch because your wording is ambiguous.
 
Huh so I was 2 for 3 for who I thought were scum after day 1 end. Although one of them was the SK.

Unfortunately the time crunch at the end made me take an action resulted in Comiturtle killing me night 1.
 
Yeah, for your first game you did great, better than most and much better than my first game. I felt like I was stumbling around trying to get an idea of how to actually scum hunt adequately (and I swear I am to this day...which really disappoints me in myself). Watching you felt like watching someone who had a few games under their belt and knew the general idea of what they were doing. Not bad at all. You also picked your targets smartly for the most part. If Dovah hadn't been roleblocked you would have instead blocked the 1st cult attempt. Following that protecting the watcher at the time was a smart move given what info you had.

I had read through some of the older games, but that was just the threadmarks and the post-games. I never scrolled through all of the posts in the past games. I just tried to do what I thought was smart and since I play a lot of different strategic and tactical games, I just guess I made a good showing.

No, it's just that it parses as though you called them Pawn Lelouch because your wording is ambiguous.
No, I meant that I was surprised that I was good enough to make Cyri question my level of experience.
 
I just hope that next time I join I game I don't end up needing to spend half of every other day out doing something like happened this time, I never really recovered from just not being here enough throughout the start of things and then I died.

Still, thanks for the fun everyone!
 
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