Behind the Serpent Throne (CK2)
- Thread starter The Laurent
- Start date
- Original Fantasy
Bakkasama
There is always a greater fool
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Pronouns
- He/his
The paper zombies were mentioned before. Does anyone remember what was said about them?
It is also concerning that Jinhai has not shown his cavalry. We know his cannons are on the left and his mages are probably everywhere but that was the part we are missing of this picture. It is unlikely they are circling around the battlefield so where would they strike?
It is also concerning that Jinhai has not shown his cavalry. We know his cannons are on the left and his mages are probably everywhere but that was the part we are missing of this picture. It is unlikely they are circling around the battlefield so where would they strike?
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
The only time I remember them being mentioned was in one of the assassination attempts, which was performed by a soldier controlled by those tags. Kiralo thought it was an attempt to get him to be suspicious of his own mages.
As for his cavalry, either he's keeping them in reserve to use them against the Rassit or other setbacks later on or he actually managed to conceal them and they're going to hit our right flank to neutralize the cannons. I don't see them hitting our left flank, as they should have crossed the path of our own cavalry that way. Or maybe he's planning a mass cavalry charge against our center.
I think it's better keep the entire reserve back so we can send them out against any sudden surprises, like cavalry flanking us. The left can be reinforced from the center without the last one being weakened too much. And if the Prince does start a mass assault on our center, we'll have enough time to send the reserves out if needed.
- Location
- Germany
If I have to guess, I would say that Jinhai will use his cavalry to attack our left flank after their formation has been broken by the paper zombie suicide bombers. Cavalry is generally good at slaughtering disorganized infantery.
While cavalry is also pretty good at destroying slow-firing cannons, we have the Hanin on our right and tough troops with long spears are cavalry's worst enemy. (Especially as they can't stay their distance and rain down arrows, because cannons. And crossbows.)
[X] [L] Reinforce them from the center.
[X] [R] Tell them to hold on.
While cavalry is also pretty good at destroying slow-firing cannons, we have the Hanin on our right and tough troops with long spears are cavalry's worst enemy. (Especially as they can't stay their distance and rain down arrows, because cannons. And crossbows.)
[X] [L] Reinforce them from the center.
[X] [R] Tell them to hold on.
The Sandman
So Zetta Slowpoke
- Location
- Wherever I am, which isn't where I'm not
Question: with the aid of magic, could Jinhai have emplaced mines under the hills our right is anchored on in the time he's had since coming within range of the battlefield?
Also, how vulnerable are the berserkers to having a mage destroy the paper slips controlling them?
Also, how vulnerable are the berserkers to having a mage destroy the paper slips controlling them?
- Location
- Germany
Not necessarily. Our Rassit went all around the outer edge of the lake. If Jinhai's cavalry charges along the inner shore of the lake they would miss each other completely.
Bakkasama
There is always a greater fool
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Pronouns
- He/his
I doubt it. We both came within range of the battlefield around the same time, the hills were on our side so his guys haven't reached them yet and we invested heavily in scouts to prevent that kind of thing.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
He actually did try to lay some traps of sorts in the hills. Agents in the dark of the dark of the night that were meant to undermine the cannons when they arrived, if they did. Or any men who used the heights.
He rolled a 4 and then a 5 on that roll.
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
Did the men he send trip and fall on their own swords or something?He actually did try to lay some traps of sorts in the hills. Agents in the dark of the dark of the night that were meant to undermine the cannons when they arrived, if they did. Or any men who used the heights.
He rolled a 4 and then a 5 on that roll.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
The five was his "Under 5" reroll.
So, what path to victory does Jinhai actually have left?
If Kiralos assessment is correct he needs to win this battle quickly and without receiving many losses. So far especially what he is doing on the right flank doesnt fit that, but we were expecting him to use additional sneaky shit there anyway. Maybe he is just bluffing a bit to get us to put more troops there, I dont know.
Still, the quote is something to keep in mind certainly once his strategy becomes more apparent. Stalling and making this bloody should win us the war, though we probably maybe should just make winning the battle our goal if possible since we play Kiralo, not the empire. This line of discussion is obvious enough though that someone probably already mentioned it within all the pages I didnt bother to read
Though there is another thing that could make any win for Jinhai costly. A pissed of Kiralo surviving and being a dick at the head of his Rassit. So I expect him to attempt to kill either Kiralo or the Rassit during the battle, an idea already strengthened by how he invested a ton to kill them off earlier, despite them being not that important for the actual battle.
He might have decided to have another try at the Rassit during the battle, but since you guys already sent them off we cant do much about that. There is also a chance he hopes he can hire them once Kiralo dies.
What we can effect is making sure Kiralo is safe. We again cant do much about assassins, traitors or mages coming to fuck us up but quite a lot of surprises, for example a bunch of ninja cavalry, can be fended off by sitting in the middle of our reserves.
TLDR: Make decisions during this battle acting as if we had only one unit of reserves and we keep his chances of winning the war smaller than they would otherwise be. Like, if he wants to slowly overwhelm our Hanins with cannon support on that hill through sheer numbers, let him do it. Keeping Kiralo safe is the highest priority even if we ignore what happens to this quest if he dies.
It would have also probably been smarter to guard the Rassit like our own eyeball instead of using them where Jinhei can get rid of them, but complaining about decisions you guys did while I was too lazy to do more than just read the updates wouldnt be nice.
If Kiralos assessment is correct he needs to win this battle quickly and without receiving many losses. So far especially what he is doing on the right flank doesnt fit that, but we were expecting him to use additional sneaky shit there anyway. Maybe he is just bluffing a bit to get us to put more troops there, I dont know.
Still, the quote is something to keep in mind certainly once his strategy becomes more apparent. Stalling and making this bloody should win us the war, though we probably maybe should just make winning the battle our goal if possible since we play Kiralo, not the empire. This line of discussion is obvious enough though that someone probably already mentioned it within all the pages I didnt bother to read
Though there is another thing that could make any win for Jinhai costly. A pissed of Kiralo surviving and being a dick at the head of his Rassit. So I expect him to attempt to kill either Kiralo or the Rassit during the battle, an idea already strengthened by how he invested a ton to kill them off earlier, despite them being not that important for the actual battle.
He might have decided to have another try at the Rassit during the battle, but since you guys already sent them off we cant do much about that. There is also a chance he hopes he can hire them once Kiralo dies.
What we can effect is making sure Kiralo is safe. We again cant do much about assassins, traitors or mages coming to fuck us up but quite a lot of surprises, for example a bunch of ninja cavalry, can be fended off by sitting in the middle of our reserves.
TLDR: Make decisions during this battle acting as if we had only one unit of reserves and we keep his chances of winning the war smaller than they would otherwise be. Like, if he wants to slowly overwhelm our Hanins with cannon support on that hill through sheer numbers, let him do it. Keeping Kiralo safe is the highest priority even if we ignore what happens to this quest if he dies.
It would have also probably been smarter to guard the Rassit like our own eyeball instead of using them where Jinhei can get rid of them, but complaining about decisions you guys did while I was too lazy to do more than just read the updates wouldnt be nice.
Our Rassit are doing fine. They've managed their usual amazing kill ratio and forced Jinhai to reveal his cannon and waste shots trying to hit light cavalry on the move. Given we have a mage advantage that opens them up to offensive workings. Gunpowder + fire spirits --> no more gunpowder.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Those cowards won't stand still and fight like men!
(To note, if the rolls had gone badly enough, the Rassit could have been hurt somewhat badly in the ambush moments of the cannons opening up. It was a trap sprung, it just, uh, mostly missed?)
[X] [L] Reinforce them from the reserves
[X] [R] Tell them to hold on.
This is what reserves are for. I dislike pulling from the centre as that's unnecessarily complicated given they should be in combat right now, and the centre is just as valuable given it can both relieve pressure and apply it back onto Jinhai's forces.
I don't believe this option is committing all our reserves so we should still have some additional troops to commit in the future, and our mage supremacy hasn't been used just yet which should tilt things even more in our favor. Jinhai's cavalry could be concerning, but it doesn't surprise me he hasn't used them given they would have just skirmishing with our own and come off worse for it. Instead given I can't see them getting past our scouts and spirit watchers, they're probably gonna be used to commit to a decisive engagement given that's what he JInhai needs to win this campaign.
Or they got past our scouts, sentries, spirit watchers in the dark due to it being a roll of, and are intending to assault Kiralo's command post. I don't see it was particularly likely, but it could happen due to arbitary dice. I can't see reserves helping though as Kiralo wouldn't be able to command them to come help in such a situation, so my vote would still be the same.
[X] [R] Tell them to hold on.
This is what reserves are for. I dislike pulling from the centre as that's unnecessarily complicated given they should be in combat right now, and the centre is just as valuable given it can both relieve pressure and apply it back onto Jinhai's forces.
I don't believe this option is committing all our reserves so we should still have some additional troops to commit in the future, and our mage supremacy hasn't been used just yet which should tilt things even more in our favor. Jinhai's cavalry could be concerning, but it doesn't surprise me he hasn't used them given they would have just skirmishing with our own and come off worse for it. Instead given I can't see them getting past our scouts and spirit watchers, they're probably gonna be used to commit to a decisive engagement given that's what he JInhai needs to win this campaign.
Or they got past our scouts, sentries, spirit watchers in the dark due to it being a roll of, and are intending to assault Kiralo's command post. I don't see it was particularly likely, but it could happen due to arbitary dice. I can't see reserves helping though as Kiralo wouldn't be able to command them to come help in such a situation, so my vote would still be the same.
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
Wait, is the center being attacked right now? I assumed it wasn't since the update only mentions our flanks fighting. @The Laurent
Assuming it isn't, I feel like reinforcing the left from the center is better than from the reserves. Pulling some troops away from the center once doesn't weaken it alot and we'd still have a full reserve to reinforce them if the Prince does attack them with a greater force.
It's only 6 AM, this is only the first phase of the battle and I'm sure the Prince has more tricks up his sleeve. Better not to spend half of our reserve already when they could be needed elsewhere later. If we do use half of our reserve now, we can only use them one more time before we're out. And with how hard the Prince is pushing, I don't think we're going to be able to pull any troops back.
I don't think Kiralo and the rest of the command staff are that far away from the reserves actually. Ji'lae was mentioned to be with the reserve and yet he was also with Kiralo when he got message of the Sea-Raiders.
If the Prince indeed has a surprise cavalry sneak attack on us planned, I'm pretty sure the reserves can intercept them in time. And the reserves have alot of Hanin, which are the closest thing we have to an anti-cavalry force so....
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Yeah, he's not attacking the center at all.
Why aren't we attacking then? Battles are about applying pressure to your opponent and sustaining the pressure being applied, unless your forces are inferior (and you noted the opposite) then if the centre is not being attacked, then it should be the one attacking. Then either the enemy reciprocates and engages, or subsequently our centre can start applying pressure to their flanks that are attacking.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Partially, you're taking a defensive stance, it's what in part you voted for, to see if the enemy would spear themselves on you. Also, your forces aren't superior. In fact, they're probably slightly inferior in number.
Though at the moment, moving forward with your center would be awkward if the enemy can hit them from the side with either of their other two attacks.
Last edited:
Yes? They would also be distracted from assaulting the fronts they would be on, and would be equally if not more vulnerable to attacks by our centre force, and have no relief until the opposing army marches all the way across the field given they assaulted our positions. At which point our centre can disengage, or prepare for combat, either should be fine given Jun is leading them and can pick the appropriate tactical move.
Taking a defensive stance shouldn't mean do nothing if the enemy doesn't attack.
You had this where you had Kiralo mention that they were pushing on both their left and right .. so really that should mean there centre should be weaker than our forces, not ours being inferior to theirs?
And if our forces in the centre are inferior to theirs, then our flanks shouldn't need much reinforcements given it was mentioned our light cavalry was superior to his (and ours is deployed, his isn't), our cannon is deployed and in a superior position (his was used in a trap that didn't succeed) and mages in general. We should also have come to battle with equal if not superior numbers unless Jinhai left negligible amounts of troops back in Basrat to face the 100k Irit army.
If as you say that their centre is superior to ours, then their flanks should also be attacking similar numbers, but as you mentioned they would be entrenched and have better defenses. Thus the attack should naturally petre out as sufficient forces wouldn't have been committed to overcome the advantages.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Kiralo is considering that as a future option, but right now he wants to see what Jinhai is going to do. Jinhai's making mistakes, and he plans on taking advantage of them in the fullness of time. Which isn't now when both flanks are under strong pressure. If they fold, then it doesn't matter what else happens, which is probably part of the idea.
And I meant, their overall numbers are superior to yours. Their center forces? Possibly inferior, but also not in a good position to be attacked at the moment, with all else under consideration. If you lose your right, that could be dangerous, if you lose both, you've basically lost the battle, even if you push through the enemy in the center, because they can just close up behind you and murder you all.
*******
Also, I am stating this as a fact that Kiralo knows: Prince Jinhai has a small superiority of numbers as to his overall forces that are here right now. Your deployment plan actually went for slightly smaller numbers for the Hirand push than I expected, actually. Not that much smaller, but.
Last edited:
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Hold off the attack or staunch the bleeding, and then *that* would be a perfect time for a counterattack, including, say, from the center. Plus, Kiralo still has the Rassit, as far as he knows, which means quite a bit can be done as long as his flanks don't collapse around him.
Edit: And if he weakens his flanks to reinforce his center, then the attack dies completely and, ideally, you then push with your flanks.
Edit: And if he weakens his flanks to reinforce his center, then the attack dies completely and, ideally, you then push with your flanks.
Last edited:
I'm don't know a nice way of putting it, but this comes off as babble. "If you lose your left and right flanks you've lost the battle" - that's the most basic of basic information about battles. And not relevant to my suggestion nor is, "Their centre forces ... not in a good position to be attacked", as I didn't say to do that. I'm unsure if there's confusion in just what I'm suggesting, or if I'm confused by how you're laying out the battle.
If your left and right flanks are under great pressure and being attacked, you shouldn't be doing nothing with the centre army. And somehow doing something with your centre army, shouldn't make it more likely that your flanks give way than not doing anything at all.
Again, not sure the relevance of this is to my suggestion.
OK, 3 fronts. They marched their left and right flanks forwards to attack our respective left and right flanks. Ergo, our centre army should still be in relative formation with our flanks, where as their centre should not be due to not marching across the field nor being in range of our ranged weaponary or skirmishers. Therefore, there should be an opportunity to advance the centre a marginal amount to apply pressure to the sides of their flanks thus relieving some of the pressure on ours, and the only way to counter this would be to engage with their centre army. However, that still requires marching across the field which should be considerably further than what our centre marched, given as I mentioned they were the ones who attacked our position.
Thus, if their centre doesn't move, our centre can continue pressuring their flanks. If it does move, it'll take a certain amount of time so Jun can decide whether to accept battle or fall back into the original position.
Shitty couple minutes in paint to try and illustrate, along with finding out about arrows in last one.
Edit - didn't know that interface popped up. I'll spoiler it.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
And some of this makes sense, though I don't appreciate being told that I'm just babbling. It's actually incredibly frustrating.
That's part of what sending your troops from the center would involve, by the way.
And, it really isn't that bad of a picture? Though it makes the distances seem smaller in some cases than they really are.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Additionally, though this is a minor point, disengaging with an enemy is harder, and more morally hazardous, then you seem to be putting it.
Note: this is also a point in favor of the Imperial army, of course. Right now the enemy is getting stuck in. Disengaging if this doesn't work will be costly at best.
Note: this is also a point in favor of the Imperial army, of course. Right now the enemy is getting stuck in. Disengaging if this doesn't work will be costly at best.
Last edited: