Behind the Serpent Throne (CK2)

Not really? Or rather, what feudalism is and isn't is a really, really long story, and in China it was never, ever, ever along the lines of Medieval Europe. Like, to explain, China in the 1700s was not ruled by Noble Landholders who gathered together a lot of land in aristocratic families. Instead there was a system of tenant farming and absentee gentry/gentle but not aristocratic landowners.

I guess that's just the impression I got from this update from with the background I have. So I'm still rather unclear on what the points of diveregence are but I'll take your word for it.


But the story of what's going on is rather more complicated than a simple tale of "The Fall of Feudalism and the rise of capitalism/etc." Even if it succeeds, and it might well horribly fail, the results and consequences will take a long, long time to play out.

I'll of course be talking more about what he's planning in later updates, since it's a dense topic, and one that's going to run head-first into politics and politicization, of course.


I don't think I ever doubted your ability to take this beyond a simple morality tale. Although this being a quest and all I do worry whether we will ever see those consequences play out. Please don't feel pressured by that I will simply enjoy whatever I get.

As for further elaboration on what his reforms will be about I'm definitely looking forward to it. You never fail to impress (or maybe I'm just easily impressed, it works either way.)
 
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[X] Plan Casting Victories In Gold
-[X] My Father's Explainer x2
-[X] Mercantile Gripes
-[X] The Most Noble Men of Csrae

To the cause of preventing future fires. The first one REALLY must do well. The second two have very worried and influential people who should be kept just worried enough to be exploited and not enough to do something stupid.

-[X] The Coinage of Victory
-[X] The Man on Horseback (Kueli)

These to cement the victory in memory, and to push our image out. Speak to the people in the language of success.

-[X] Family Ties, Family Words
-[X] His Mother's Son
-[X] The Course of Fate(Ayila)

And personal responsibilities
 
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[X] Plan Casting Victories In Gold
-[X] My Father's Explainer x2
-[X] Mercantile Gripes
-[X] The Most Noble Men of Csrae

To the cause of preventing future fires. The first one REALLY must do well. The second two have very worried and influential people who should be kept just worried enough to be exploited and not enough to do something stupid.

-[X] The Coinage of Victory
-[X] The Man on Horseback

These to cement the victory in memory, and to push our image out. Speak to the people in the language of success.

-[X] Family Ties, Family Words
-[X] His Mother's Son
-[X] The Course of Fate

And personal responsibilities

It might be obvious, but please indicate which action is Kueli's, and which is Ayila's. You'll be rolling *their* dice for it, generally speaking. Or at least, their dice will help you.

...I need to release a character sheet for her soon, I suppose!
 
[X] Plan Random
-[X] My Father's Explainer x2

This is something we just can't avoid doing, so we better do it well.

-[X] Mercantile Gripes
-[X] The Most Noble Men of Csrae

Make connections, calm down people, keep things stable, make (empty) promises, that sort of thing.

-[X] The Man on Horseback (Kueli)

I think Kueli will be most useful here. Parades can be difficult to organize and Martial is simply his best stat.

-[X] The Course of Fate (Ayila)

Obligatory Ayila action.

-[X] The Coinage of Victory

Increases our reputation and probably Influence as well.

-[X] Hitting the Books

Would increase Learning, probably syncs well with 'My Father's Explainer' since we would be learning laws and stuff. This will be useful in the future. 'Imperial Justice' does something similar, I suspect, but this one seems broader.

-[X] A Holy Feast

Honoring gods, a pretty Kiralo thing to do. Either this or the monk action.

Actions related to our mom and family I think can wait till we're back at court. I want Kiralo to ask it from his dad personally, not through a letter.
 
@veekie @Random Member wouldn't it be better to have Kueli in "Coinage of victory" instead of "The Man on Horseback"? We have better martial than him and he has better Stewardship than us.
 
@veekie @Random Member wouldn't it be better to have Kueli in "Coinage of victory" instead of "The Man on Horseback"? We have better martial than him and he has better Stewardship than us.
Perhaps. But it makes alot more sense for Kueli to help organize a parade of the Rassit troops he commands than for him to go talk with some foreigner-hating Csiritan officials about why we should be put on coins. I wouldn't be surprised if there were some hidden modifiers at play.
 
Perhaps. But it makes alot more sense for Kueli to help organize a parade of the Rassit troops he commands than for him to go talk with some foreigner-hating Csiritan officials about why we should be put on coins. I wouldn't be surprised if there were some hidden modifiers at play.
Basically similar thoughts. Even Kiralo would find it challenging.
 
So yeah, I was trying to replicate in some small way the prose I saw in this one Chinese history that I bought specifically to see the way that people told history in those times. In the middle section.
 
I'd rather not delay. Once we get back we'll get more busy, not less. I'm worried about all the urgent things coming up that will push mom back, indefinitely.
 
Vote closed!
Adhoc vote count started by The Laurent on Sep 10, 2017 at 3:55 PM, finished with 30 posts and 10 votes.

  • [X] Plan Random
    -[X] My Father's Explainer x2
    -[X] Mercantile Gripes
    -[X] The Most Noble Men of Csrae
    -[X] The Man on Horseback (Kueli)
    -[X] The Course of Fate(Ayila)
    -[X] The Coinage of Victory
    -[X] Hitting the Books
    -[X] A Holy Feast
    [X] Plan Casting Victories In Gold
    -[X] My Father's Explainer x2
    -[X] Mercantile Gripes
    -[X] The Most Noble Men of Csrae
    -[X] The Coinage of Victory
    -[X] The Man on Horseback (Kueli)
    -[X] Family Ties, Family Words
    -[X] His Mother's Son
    -[X] The Course of Fate(Ayila)
 

Originally, though it doesn't really come up except in a single backstory post, the last Southlander invasion was 300 years ago, leading to a period of Csiritan expansion after the failure that ended 187 years ago with a notable defeat.

Instead, it was 200 (ish) and 115 years ago. It compresses the timeline, makes the periods of conquest and the periods of retreat more immediate, and creates an explanation for the inward turn of the last century that lead, ultimately, to Kuojah's Isolationism.
 
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Timeline (WIP)
Timeline (Years before the Quest begins, which we'll count as '0'.)

-594: An invasion of Southlanders, led by a charismatic young warrior, begins to devour the dying and failing Empire, which has been beset by provinicial and religious tensions.
-593-583: The conquest of Csirit, and the marrying of the Emperor's daughter to the first Southlander Emperor, who at the time controlled both Csirit and almost all of the Southlands. A system is insituted to maintain cavalry superiority, and enforce the inferiority of the native Iritans and other Csiritan mainstays.
-582: The capital is moved to northern Nestirin, from Center Irit.
-583-555: The reign of the first Southlander Emperor. Filled with rebellions that are crushed time and again, he didn't have control over what is now northern Yeadalt, Xissand, Hirand, and Hari-Nat, which formed a rump state governed by a Prince of the Blood. But his conquests slowly pushed it back almost to the point of destruction.
-554: The division: One of this First Emperor's sons gains Far Southlands. Another gains Near Southlands, and the eldest is put as successor to Csirit. While for the first decade or two, this was actually an era of relative peace and prosperity, eventually the two younger sons fought, and the eldest son captured a chunk of Near Southlands in order to, combined with the ground of Hirand--which was at parts destroyed or altered to support, instead of food, horses--have a supply of horses and trained riders without having to rely on his brothers.
-553-518: Rule of the Second Southlander Emperor.
-517 - 506: Rule of the Third Southlander Emperor
-517: Conquest of Yeadalt by the Southland Csiritan Empire, and the first use of this land as a place of exile for political enemies and religious disputants.
-515: Civil Service Exams abolished.
-512: Official Religion dis-established.
-510: Revolt of Bloody Banners.
-508: Rebellion of the Horse-Nobles leads to the Emperor suddenly shifting back against his Southlander roots, trying to punish both sides, and restoring religious exiles to places of power, where these heretics had reason to hate both Iritans and Southlanders.
-506: Palace coup. New Southlander Emperor established.
-506 - 499: Reign of the Fourth Southlander Emperor.
-498 - 484: 5th Southlander Emperor, first not to be a noted and accomplished horseman.
-484 - 468: 6th Southlander Emperor.
-468 -440: 7th and final Southlander Emperor. In the final years of his reign, a rebellion from modern Basrat, led by an ambitious runaway slave who fought his way to glory and married into what remained of the Old Imperial line, joining himself in ceremony and in holy fact with the religion, conquered and at last was crowned. His reign, which lasted from -440 (before the start of this game) to 400, was a time of autocracy and absolute brutal power. He restored an Iritan capital, but with the war and raiding from the Southlands, the center of balanced seemed to be moving both east and north.
-400 - 300: An era of relative peace. The Sea-Raiders fought a bloody conflict in the -320s, but it failed to conquer Hari-Os, though it did lead to an economic shift that temporarily made the west more potent. However, in this age of peace, the centralized control slipped, and the Civil Service Exams, nor many of the centralized features that had been hallmarks of the Empire before the Southlander Emperor, didn't return. The Southlander Dynasty had devolved much power to the 'provinces' and after the First New True Emperor's long reign and his attempts to reverse this, the trend actually increased in strength, sewing the seeds of later rebellion and problems.
-300 - 270: The era of divided prosperity. The barbarians were encroaching at places, but the court did nothing, and even the power of taxation devolved into the provinces... and yet for a time, the court had wealth enough, and influence enough, that they were able to maintain some degree of balance.
-270- 225: Increased raids by Sea-Raiders, Bueli, and a drift in the southern parts of Csirit towards heresy and, more than that, paying bribes to the Southlanders to keep them from raiding all contributed towards a general malaise, though the Emperor (and they tended to run together) was rich and spoiled and made many Princely Dynasties in an attempt to let his family rule the Empire where he could not.
- 224- 222: Rebellion of Tang, Rebellion of Sui Gen, Rebellion of Basrat, Rebellion of Xissand Nobles, each put down with less and less success.
-221: Peasant revolt nearly overruns the capital and almost kills the Emperor.
-225 - 215: The Prince in Rae (not yet Csrae) starts the "Rectifying and Purifying the Center" movement. Among its demands were Civil Service Exams, greater control of taxation and foreign policy, a return to scholarship, an end to toleration of heresy, purity and an end to corruption, and a stronger scholastic tradition. All of these were embodied in Prince Song, who was known as a man of great virtues, though the farthest thing imaginable from being a warrior himself.
-220: A palace coup leads to almost complete control of the Emperor by the Prince, who moves the capital to a central location in Rae, which is partially demolished to rebuild a city: Csrae, as with Rae. In doing so it hopes to escape the corruption and agricultural exhaustion that had struck Irit.
-219-214: The provinces are conquered or appeased at least enough to fall into line, in the northern portions, but the Prince of Rae, suspected and feared, is exiled, barely avoiding execution.
213-211: The Prince of Rae, exiled to the Bueli border, meets a young officer named Hanae. Whether they become lovers or merely political allies is still a matter of some debate, but they successfully fight off Bueli incursions. They also begin reforms and other acts, gathering strength.
-212-210: The manifold humilations: The Emperor, not having any control over the southern third of the Empire, reacts laxly or not at all to calls to defend it as the Southlanders extort more and more and more from them.
-209: The Great Betrayal: The Emperor determines to sign a treaty presented by the Southlander Envoy from one of the great-lords vying for control of southern Csirit granting him ownership of the bottom third of Csirit in exchange for a huge sum of money. The logic was that since he didn't own it, trading it would be without price.
----A palace coup deposes him, and his sons, and then a nephew who is not obedient, finally falling to the Prince of Rae to arrive, marry his own close cousin, and become Emperor. And Hanae came with him.
-208: After a year of stalling via 'negotiation' the new Emperor repudiates the deal in its entirety. The forty-odd year old Emperor prepares for war.
-208 - -206: The Southlander invasion happens, and is ultimately defeated by both the Hanin and internal divisions, and thus the Empire begins to stretch out its forces.
-208 - -188: Reign of the Rae Emperor, as some call him. The Near Southland is conquered under his auspices and Bueli is pushed back almost to the current border lines. Centralization is only somewhat effective, but control over taxes, roads, and salt monopolies are regained, but not the end of Hereditary Governors. He rules in his own right, leading his own clique.
-187: Without his patron, Hanae, now aging and yet still leading the war efforts down south, begins to lose ground, and is removed because of court politics a year later, and dies bitter and angry two decades later.
-187 - 150: Reign of the Second Revived Emperor. His father's son, he's energetic and intelligent, though having grown up around his advisors, he trusts them quite a bit. But his martial pretenses mean he doesn't follow them in some respects, and about 2/3rds of the Mid-Southlands is conquered. Only one city remains 'free' in the mid-southlands, and the plains and desert tribes and Kingdoms beyond the mountain can do very little.
-150 - -141: Reign of the short Emperor, carried off by disease in his thirties. He was opinionated, but not always competent, but after him, greater strength begins to accrue within the bureaucracy and the advisers.
-141 - 125: Reign of the next Emperor
139- 134: A revolt is put down in the Mid Southlands.
132-129: The current borders/limits of Hari Bueli are reached, though it is not yet a province. Bueli continues to try to push back the borders.
128: Basratan Revolt leads to the creation of a Princely House in Basrat to hold the east, which they do honorably for over a century.
-125 - -114: Reign of the next Emperor, whose life was cut short by suicide.
-117-118: The Bueli are pushed back, seemingly for good. The Sea-Raiders occupy attention for a time.
-116 - 114: Spurred on by courtly plans, an invasion is launched to finally subjugate all of the Southlands.
-115: In the 'Battle of the Oasis' almost the entire army is lost.
-114: Upon hearing the news, the Emperor kills himself.
-114 - 101: Regency of the next Emperor, a time of dissension and desperation, as the Empire tried to hold onto what it could. But attempts to push beyond a certain point by Southlanders failed. In the wake of the invasions and occupations, a divided culture existed, as did many, many cities, the 'Seventeen Cities' which had been nourished by trade both internal and external, and they served as a blockage on any attempt to conquer Csirit again.
-103: Hari-Bueli is created... as a hereditary province, a sign of Imperial weakness.
-100: Upon the ascension of a new Emperor (instead of with a Regent), Hari-Su is created, and more or less the current boundaries of the Empire are set.
-100-85: Reign of Emperor Ji-Law.
-85-55: Reign of Emperor Hia Juang, a time of rampent corruption and even more factionalism, as the Empire's army gained both more independence and less power as the Council truly became what it is to this day.
-80: Birth of Kuojah.
-60: Kuojah, at the age of twenty, reaches the Highest Merit of the Civil Service Exams and begins a glorious career.
-55 - -44: Reign of Emperor Ha So.
-48 -44: The Bueli campaign ends in failure, the Emperor Ha So dying for his folly, and with the disgrace of his enemies for approving, Kuojah enters the full waxing of his power at the age of thirty-six.
-44 - -28: Reign of Emperor Chen'an.
-28: Death of the old Emperor.
-28 - 0: Reign of Emperor Meng
-25: Kiralo born of Jia and Kuojah. Jia steals away Kiralo to the Southlands.
-9: Kiralo becomes a Rassit.
0: Banner Day; Death of Emperor Meng, ascension, and without regency, of Emperor Dai'so; Kiralo recalled by his father.
1: Kiralo declared Envoy to the Council of Generals; Prince Jinhai raises his banner in revolt; Prince Jinhai is defeated in battle by Kiralo.
 
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