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But the trick to that is, do something that's sorta training but also actually fun, because Ozai sure as hell isn't doing that. You need to smuggle these things in, not try to tempt someone with a doll.

The latter point, that he wasn't exactly spoiled for choices, is a better argument.
Azula has fun with training already. She likes it for more than just its material benefits, she just doesn't like spending her time on stuff which doesn't also benefit her in some way. So giving her additional stuff to do along those lines isn't going to change anything.
 
So wait, was Iroh well informed enough that he should have known Azula would reject the doll, or too distant to care about what he gave her?

(also even taking as read that his options were limited, he could still have framed the doll better, not gone "girls like fashion, right?")

(also also Iroh is definitely at best passively sexist, just look at his treatment of June)
 
We have no evidence that he put much effort into talking to either of the children. We also have no evidence that he didn't. All of the flashbacks to Zuko's past except the one where he gets scarred don't show Iroh at the palace because he was busy with leading the Fire Nation war effort. I just don't buy that he'd get Zuko a thoughtful and appropriate gift but hand Azula something generically girly without thinking, especially given what I just said above. He gets along with Zuko better, yes, but that's because Zuko is naturally a kinder person than Azula. That's not evidence that Iroh didn't understand Azula.

Legacy of the Fire Nation suggests Zuko wrote letters to Iroh and Iroh probably answered them.
 
Considering Lu Ten's death it is no suprise Iroh would gravitate to Zuko more than Azula. He probably tried to compensate for his son's death by becoming mentor/father figure for Zuko who was probably much easier to relate to his son than Azula.
 
So wait, was Iroh well informed enough that he should have known Azula would reject the doll, or too distant to care about what he gave her?

(also even taking as read that his options were limited, he could still have framed the doll better, not gone "girls like fashion, right?")

(also also Iroh is definitely at best passively sexist, just look at his treatment of June)
Iroh hoped she would at least try to play with it rather than immediately toss it out. He's not omniscient.

As for June, being a pervert =/= being a sexist.
Legacy of the Fire Nation suggests Zuko wrote letters to Iroh and Iroh probably answered them.
I'm speaking strictly about the show. Not a fan of the comics.
Considering Lu Ten's death it is no suprise Iroh would gravitate to Zuko more than Azula. He probably tried to compensate for his son's death by becoming mentor/father figure for Zuko who was probably much easier to relate to his son than Azula.
The scene in question happened when Iroh was still laying siege to Ba Sing Se, so Lu Ten hadn't died yet.
 
I'm speaking strictly about the show. Not a fan of the comics.

I had to look it up, but apparently it's not a comic?

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Avatar: The Last Airbender: Legacy of the Fire Nation

For the scrapbook with a similar title that Aang leaves to Tenzin, see Avatar: The Last Airbender: Legacy. Avatar: The Last Airbender: Legacy of the Fire Nation is a hardcover scrapbook released on February 4, 2020, written by Joshua Pruett and published by Insight Editions. The book follows...

And it's at least published after most of the mainline comics that have people up in arms about them sucking.
 
Iroh hoped she would at least try to play with it rather than immediately toss it out. He's not omniscient.

As for June, being a pervert =/= being a sexist.

I'm speaking strictly about the show. Not a fan of the comics.

The scene in question happened when Iroh was still laying siege to Ba Sing Se, so Lu Ten hadn't died yet.
I was refering to Iroh general favoritism to Zuko compared to Azula. Tho I admit I misremembered the timeline on this event.

But regarding the doll I think he just wasn't acquainted with Azula enough so he just thought what regular young girl might have liked when he chose Azula's gift?
 
We have no evidence that he put much effort into talking to either of the children. We also have no evidence that he didn't. All of the flashbacks to Zuko's past except the one where he gets scarred don't show Iroh at the palace because he was busy with leading the Fire Nation war effort. I just don't buy that he'd get Zuko a thoughtful and appropriate gift but hand Azula something generically girly without thinking, especially given what I just said above. He gets along with Zuko better, yes, but that's because Zuko is naturally a kinder person than Azula. That's not evidence that Iroh didn't understand Azula.
I think a lot of people are assuming he put a lot of thought into Zuko's gift.

Does it show favoritism? Yeah, probably. The surrender gift of a general vs. a doll he probably just bought? Even setting aside where Azula likes dolls, the quality/importance is much higher for Zuko.

With that said, ultimately he gave a young boy with martial interests a knife. This isn't exactly rocket science.
 
I do not believe it requires omniscience to be able to predict that Azula would react poorly to being sent a doll, especially in comparison to Zuko's gift.
 
I think a lot of people are assuming he put a lot of thought into Zuko's gift.

Does it show favoritism? Yeah, probably. The surrender gift of a general vs. a doll he probably just bought? Even setting aside where Azula likes dolls, the quality/importance is much higher for Zuko.

With that said, ultimately he gave a young boy with martial interests a knife. This isn't exactly rocket science.
I think the doll was at least from the Earth Kingdom as it was dressed in the "latest fashion for Earth Kingdom girls". I doubt Fire Nation allowed foreign cultural trends to be distributed on thier soil.
 
But then why didn't he say so? There is no mention of it being from a captured princess in the show.
...Because it wouldn't have changed anything? The Earth Kingdom general got mentioned because it was ironic: his fancy knife said "never give up without a fight" but its former owner gave up without a fight.

But considering the situation, Iroh wasn't going to be freaking shopping. Capturing people important to the Earth Kingdom was kinda his job though, so it's the most likely source for most of the stuff he got from the siege.
 
The way I see it

Iroh being closer to Zuko than Azula during their little kid years was probably just down to Zuko being more receptive to hanging around Iroh
Whereas Azula was dismissive of him even back then ("His Royal Tea-loving Kookiness")
Most likely due to being influenced by Ozai's animosity toward his brother

I'm inclined to take Iroh giving Azula a doll at face value
Which was just "I don't really know my niece that well, but if I'm sending Zuko a gift I should get something for his sister too... hmm, girls like dolls right?"

I don't really see this as anything worth castigating him over, or get any sense of "he should have known she'd react poorly"
That feels like reaching for malice that wasn't there

Iroh was definitely closer to Zuko, but I don't think Iroh specifically didn't care for Azula
He just didn't connect with her personally due various factors
 
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...Because it wouldn't have changed anything? The Earth Kingdom general got mentioned because it was ironic: his fancy knife said "never give up without a fight" but its former owner gave up without a fight.

But considering the situation, Iroh wasn't going to be freaking shopping. Capturing people important to the Earth Kingdom was kinda his job though, so it's the most likely source for most of the stuff he got from the siege.
He only broke through the Outer Wall into agrarian zone of Ba Sing Se there is no princeses to find there and shortly after he gave up. I think the doll could have came from any other towns or vilages he came through while he was a general.
 
He only broke through the Outer Wall into agrarian zone of Ba Sing Se there is no princeses to find there and shortly after he gave up. I think the doll could have came from any other towns or vilages he came through while he was a general.
The Earth Kingdom has nobility living around all over. If not within the agrarian zone looking over their property then you'll find manors around the city's periphery I bet. But at this point it's quibbling about very minor details.
 
The way I see it

Iroh being closer to Zuko than Azula during their little kid years was probably just down to Zuko being more receptive to hanging with Iroh
Whereas Azula was dismissive of him even back then ("His Royal Tea-loving Kookiness")
Most likely due to being influenced by Ozai's animosity toward his brother

I'm inclined to take Iroh giving Azula a doll at face value
Which was just "I don't really know my niece that well, but if I'm sending Zuko a gift I should get something for his sister too... hmm, girls like dolls right?"

I don't really see this as anything worth castigating him over, or get any sense of "he should have known she'd react poorly"
That feels like reaching for malice that wasn't there

Iroh was definitely closer to Zuko, but I don't think Iroh specifically didn't care for Azula
He just didn't connect with her personally due various factors
Well there is that "she is crazy and she needs to go down" quote he says about her. It does make him look like he dismissed any notion of helping her out of his mind. The question is when he gave up on Azula. The minutes when they got reunited or even before he joined Zuko in exile. But judging by the look he is giving her when she appears he already seems to hold strong negative opinion about her.
 
Almost certainly the latter, given his flashback in The Storm depicts her as smiling at Zuko being maimed... even though she's behind and to one side of him, while he's got his eyes closed and his face turned in the other direction.
... or, since he didn't actually describe her doing that, that's just, y'know, part of the flashback? Like, Avatar doesn't actually do unreliable narrator flashbacks, that's not a thing. Assuming that in this one case, actually Azula smiling represents that's what Iroh thinks she did as opposed to what she actually did is wild.
 
Almost certainly the latter, given his flashback in The Storm depicts her as smiling at Zuko being maimed... even though she's behind and to one side of him, while he's got his eyes closed and his face turned in the other direction.
meh personaly I never consider flashbacks a perfect representation of ones memories. I just picture Iroh telling the story normaly while the flashback of the related moment is only for us viewers and not every detail showed were mentioned in the story told.
 
Well there is that "she is crazy and she needs to go down" quote he says about her. It does make him look like he dismissed any notion of helping her out of his mind. The question is when he gave up on Azula. The minutes when they got reunited or even before he joined Zuko in exile. But judging by the look he is giving her when she appears he already seems to hold strong negative opinion about her.
I mean, that's much later
I was specifically commenting on how him sending her a doll really isn't much of an indictment
Taking him sending her a doll as some indication that he never liked her is reading far too deep into innocuous gestures

As for when that opinion started to go south
Probably around the same time everything in the Royal Family started really deteriorating
After Lu Ten died, Ursa disappeared, and Ozai became Firelord
 
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The big problem there is that basically all of our sources on the whole time period outside of the vague stuff we got in the show is... one of the least liked comics out there.

So if we discount those, we don't really know more than the very, very broad strokes of things.

Though even the chronology seems pretty fucking dire. Azula's nine and Zuko's eleven when Ozai becomes Fire Lord, she's eleven and he's thirteen when he's banished, and she's fourteen and he's sixteen when everything goes down in the series.

Which, y'know, it's a children's cartoon but if you start thinking about it is honestly kind of terrifying.

(And also, as I said, helps draw attention to how much of a scrub Ozai is. His entire reign as Fire Lord was just the bad half of a childhood for his kids. He legitimately doesn't last long.)
 
The Laurent said:
I don't know the specifics, obviously, but the way to go for her would be to find something fun that a sense of Training (TM) can justify as being okay that she's having fun because it's educational or whatever.
Actually, thinking on it, I wonder if a pai sho set might not have been a good gift? It could be justified as learning to read and outthink an opponent, being constrained by the rules and yet still managing to win, etc., but it's also something that's inherently social and conducive to contemplation rather than rapid violent action.
 
I think in the end we simply don't have enough information from the source material to come to a conclusion on just when Iroh "gave up" on Azula. You could come up with any number of plausible reads. I am curious to see what sort of take this work will have on it, if it comes up.
 
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