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Yes, he would be afraid by a sudden charge of us?
Thats basic artillery deployment
Army of Liberty: a Fantasy Revolutionary Warfare Quest
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Yes, he would be afraid by a sudden charge of us?
Thats basic artillery deployment
Red Rationalist
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And this is what I mean. I bring up reasons for somebody to evaluate anything different than you, and of course that means they are an absolute idiot. Tell me, is wanting to preserve munition sign of complete idiocy? Do you know how much munitions Trotha has? Do you know how many battles he expects? No? Then maybe, just maybe there are more considerations than "I can attack with artillery, end of thought".
The wargames rely on him deploying his entire force behind a hill range. This is not a flexible strategy, nor a good idea in general if the opponent could deploy in a myriad of ways. You can't assume "obviously he's going to win" if I refuse to seriously engage with scenarios that require precognition.
And this is my critique of the underlying concept: You assume he has to assault somehow, and that this assault will allow us to inflict meaningful casulties. Why? We assumed Wachenheim would charge, and after a point he didn't. Here we would give up our ability to pressure the assault and rely on the same hope again. Why not plan how to make him attack us along certain lines instead?
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How does your plan "make him attack us" in ways that defending Kinzberg doesn't? What are we threatening of his from the Turm that we aren't from Kinzberg and the south end of the valley? An extra quarter mile of road? If he wasn't going to attack he wouldn't be forming up lines at all, and all three plans accomplish the same end of "either he comes down the western forest or eats a bunch of artillery fire coming down another way". All three assume he's going to advance because he...has to, in order to accomplish his objective. If he doesn't, we win and the strategic balance in this region shifts massively in Arné's favor. If he does, then he's forced to deal with a fortified position.
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Trothas munitions has nothing to do with why i would call an frontal attack idotic? Its the fact that he mechanically cant win unless he crits or rolls 80 or higher for 15 rolls. Once again, for the tenth time, i do not consider long range bombardemant from him realistic, that is something only you bring up all the time.
The wargame had him deploy his entire force in the center and move it out of the way once he saw what we were doing. I told you in the opening blurb that you saw his forces in the center but that trotha moved them behind the hills and out of view once he saw what your were doing. that doesnt require precognition, just him realising what we are planning to do, which is pretty obvious
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Red Rationalist
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The main difference is that he has to take Rotholz to move anywhere. Since his task is an assault, he needs to move forward. The threat isn't to a quarter mile of road, but his ability to position units there.
No, basic artillery deployment means he wants to keep the artillery protected. If the enemy (us) are turtling in an entrenched position, the units protecting his artillery do not have to be out in the open in front of the artillery, they just have to be close enough to be able to intercept any sudden enemy charge.
At medium range (7 hexes), an infantry charge would take 2 turns to reach his artillery, so he only has to worry about cavalry. And our cavalry can be covered by his cavalry, by keeping them hidden in the back and ready charging.
Think about it, how would you counter the strategy you are proposing? You would not place half your army in the open taking enemy fire if the enemy is passive and non-threatening, would you? Instead you would move up the artillery, protect them by nearby units that are in cover, and start bombarding.
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It did. You called a frontal assault braindead because he could use artillery instead, but there are reasons to use artillery.
That's false. Here is the exact quote:
That is the "very real danger" I refused to entertain.
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Yeah, whenever this argument about whether von Trotha will attack at all comes up I start feeling lost again. It feels like people are simultaneously trying to argue "Position X is better because it's stronger" and "Position X is better because it's weaker, meaning that von Trotha will be more willing to attack it", and my deep and engaged studies of philosophy sense some kind of contradiction here.
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And in the other plans he has to deal with bombardment to move anywhere. Like yes obviously in your plan he's forced to assault Rotholz, but you also lack a fallback position that isn't vulnerable to cavalry and artillery so that by the time he takes Rotholz he's won the battle. Meanwhile in the Kinzberg plans we force him to attack Kinzberg and it becomes the same thing but several turns later (and several more turns of moving units through flat terrain on his part).
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Red Rationalist
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Ok, how do I lack a fallback position? I put my forces south of the hills, just like I outlined. This creates multiple battles, with the first one exhausting him.
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Every attached image in your plan features a bunch of inf and art sitting on the open plains with no cover for the sake of artillery ranging, which is not something I consider a viable fallback position.
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Because all these theoreticals are really hard to grasp, i made a quick illustration of his artillery formation for a medium range bombardment of Kinzberg:
Could you explain how he would screen against the 3 cavalry units i put there, but without us being able to feint and shoot his own cavalry once it gets out of its own cover?
I wouldnt be able to counter the strategy I am proposing. Thats literally it, if I were von Trotha I would have no Idea how to win this battle.
If I were von Trotha and would see this plan, I would retreat to the Raoulle and start fortifying in preparation for the arnese assault
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Red Rationalist
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Ok, why? What threat is that position under? He's first forced to exhaust his infantry, bleed them out and then has to take a new forward position making his screening forces weak. A forward position under threat of cavalry, since I'm contesting the battlefield. Fallback positions don't just come down to artillery cover, the freshness of infantry also matters.
BananosMoon
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[X] Plan Fortress Kinzberg
[X] Plan Valley Outpost
[X] Plan Valley Outpost
Red Rationalist
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Come on. He deploys all of his artillery in a straight line? He doesn't set up batteries in cover? If you want to realistically simulate it, at least put holes for the cavalry to rush trough.
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Please show where I did this. If I did I was wrong, the frontal assault is brain-dead because he could do a flanking assault.
Here's the quote I was talking about:
The argument was that Von Trotha overwhelms us at medium range with larger artillery numbers and this is the only way to put his 7 artillery regiments into medium range, unless you want them to move them 6 tiles away from the infantry only, where our artillery hits them at medium range (10th kills 25 artillery/turn at medium range)
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The threat of all the artillery and cavalry he didn't dedicate to routing our units from Rotholz Turm? That's not going to take his entire force, and again, he can pretty easily put forces on the southern edge of the Schloss to bombard any positions we are sitting in outside the Kinzberg cover.
Why would he place his artillery like that, rather than using terrain and spreading them out? Surely he would cover his flanks as well, and not allow the 108th and 13th to come that close?Because all these theoreticals are really hard to grasp, i made a quick illustration of his artillery formation for a medium range bombardment of Kinzberg:
Could you explain how he would screen against the 3 cavalry units i put there, but without us being able to feint and shoot his own cavalry once it gets out of its own cover?
I wouldnt be able to counter the strategy I am proposing. Thats literally it, if I were von Trotha I would have no Idea how to win this battle.
If I were von Trotha and would see this plan, I would retreat to the Raoulle and start fortifying in preparation for the arnese assault
View: https://imgur.com/a/fyIl8Or
Here is how I would try to position, if I were him. Sure, it is a bit risky, you might be able to charge one or two of the guns. But doing so would likely be a suicide mission for the cavalry as well, and risking that is surely better than risking a all-out attack on Kingzberg?
Anyway, since I am not happy with any of the plans, I'll have to propose an alternative. Here is my plan. Black hexagons are breastworks.
[X] Plan Valley Fortress
View: https://imgur.com/a/U4dEs9Q
@Photomajig, is it ok to vote only by a image? Feels easier for all parties, honestly. Or is there a potential issue with the image being changed/lost after the fact?
The goal of this plan is a formation like this:
View: https://imgur.com/a/cd9hwyi
The idea is to setup the main line in the East, where Von Trotha's artillery is much less effective due to the terrain. The Pathfinder's will setup in Rotholz to shoot and skirmish, as Halflings they are innately resistant to artillery.
In order to take Rotholz, Von Trotha has to assault it either from the center or thorugh the forest, we have artilley covering both approaches, and we can thus bleed him dry. Depending on how much pressure Von Trotha puts on it, we can either defend Rotholz, or retreat from there to the breastworks behind it. A Rapid Halfing retreat followed by an immediate Hobgoblin countercharge is also an option.
If we give up Rotholz and he takes it, he then has to push us out of the breastworks immediately south. The result is a close-range infantry battle in close range of our Horse Artillery, with our troops safe from his artilley due to the combination of favorable terrain and breastworks.
Note that this plan also utilizes defense in depth, as there are three obstacles Von Trotha has to overcome: Rotholz, the breastworks behind Rotholz, and our fallback line with the reserves at Kinzberg.
[X] Plan Valley Fortress
View: https://imgur.com/a/U4dEs9Q
@Photomajig, is it ok to vote only by a image? Feels easier for all parties, honestly. Or is there a potential issue with the image being changed/lost after the fact?
The goal of this plan is a formation like this:
View: https://imgur.com/a/cd9hwyi
The idea is to setup the main line in the East, where Von Trotha's artillery is much less effective due to the terrain. The Pathfinder's will setup in Rotholz to shoot and skirmish, as Halflings they are innately resistant to artillery.
In order to take Rotholz, Von Trotha has to assault it either from the center or thorugh the forest, we have artilley covering both approaches, and we can thus bleed him dry. Depending on how much pressure Von Trotha puts on it, we can either defend Rotholz, or retreat from there to the breastworks behind it. A Rapid Halfing retreat followed by an immediate Hobgoblin countercharge is also an option.
If we give up Rotholz and he takes it, he then has to push us out of the breastworks immediately south. The result is a close-range infantry battle in close range of our Horse Artillery, with our troops safe from his artilley due to the combination of favorable terrain and breastworks.
Note that this plan also utilizes defense in depth, as there are three obstacles Von Trotha has to overcome: Rotholz, the breastworks behind Rotholz, and our fallback line with the reserves at Kinzberg.
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One Artillery is missing here,
I would definitely try to disrupt the building formations, because that will be quite easy. If the eastern artillery moves through the Rotholz to go to where they are I would charge and destroy the western detachment with all our cavalry and as much infantry as we need, because the majority of his army is unable to support it. If he moves the artillery through the center to the east, I would destroy them in transit, by first destroying the cavalry by feinting, so charging his artillery, triggering his cavalry ready charge and moving back, drawing his cavalry into our artillery fire. Once his cavalry has been exhausted this way he has no way to prevent us from just charging the artillery, cause infantry cannot screen.
If we have no way of intercepting his artillery moving this deep into our zone of control and we just get this formation dropped into our lap, I would have the 10th shoot the western artillery that is not in cover, doing an average of 25 damage per turn and destroying it in two turns.
here are some ways in which we could destroy his formation with cavalry:
Have the 10th, 84th and 5th ready fire NW, NE, 500.
Have the 55th be in that nook at the edge and have it Move W, NW. If the enemy cavalry charges, Move back SE, E and charge the enemy cavalry if its still alive. the charging cavalry will trigger 3 medium range artillery shots, two of them with +30, one with advantage. If that doesnt rout them immedeatly, the charge from the 55th finishes the job.
repeat this until the enemy runs out of cavalry.
If the cavalry doesnt charge out, the 55th just charges and kills the artillery.
Have the lancers be on this hill, where artillery hits them with -70 because its long range and charge the enemy cavalry over the hills, where the lancers are covered by hill cover but the enemy cavalry isnt.
Have the 19th rapid move on the hill and shoot the enemy artillery.
They have rifles, so they shoot at close range and infantry only has a -10 malus.
Rapid move back into cover next turn before the enemy can catch you.
But of course first do a run where the 19th moves normally NE and directly rapidly moves back SW, to see if the cavalry gets triggered. if they do get triggered, shoot them with ready fires and multiple triggers. If they dont get triggered, do the shooting manouvre.
We could also concentrate our 5 cavalry on one side of the battlefield and overwhelm the enemy cavalry screen while they are still setting up, though thats a multi turn process and not a snappy, two turn max manouvre.
There are of course other strategies too to deal with this, but we wont really be facing a built up formation like this while doing most of them because its easier to raid unscreened artillery while they are not yet set up
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