[X] Return the loot to Daurstein. It won't be possible to return everything or to guarantee that all of it goes to the rightful owners, but it'll certainly show the people of Daurstein that you are a woman of your word. The VI. Army will not be happy. Local opinion improves. VI. Army's Morale decreases by 3.
-[X] And demand harsher punishments. You'll not be satisfied with Guillory's planned dismissals and disciplinary actions. You need heads to roll for this. Something visible, so that Daurstein's people will know the perpetrators have faced justice for their crimes. Local opinion loss averted entirely. VI. Army's Morale decreases by 5.
I can live with being known as the Virgin of Mitteln. Though I'd also approve of having the looters shot and sending the loot to the capital.
So, to weigh in somewhat on a couple points in the discussion:
In the scenario that we are holding the bridge against an assault, I am not really worried. We have now 11 infantry in total, 9 if we exclude 2 being used for a strike force. Every one of those is able to endure an extraordinary amount of battle (Things are looking like we will be getting a 9/9 army in the upcoming turn, which would translate into +10 morale mods for professional forces, or 11 checks/ 3-4 rounds of melee). I don't see the enemy forming a line that is longer than 900m, especially considering that the overall army strength was somewhat low on the provincial armies. I don't imagine the professional forces are that much more massive, otherwise they would have not been all occupied with the war and devoted a corps to support operations along the border. We will see if my intuition and guesswork is confirmed next turn with the intel gathering. This will be a battle of fronts and reserves, and we do have the strong defensive advantage of being able to point all of our cannons at the point the enemy has to cross. Guillory's force are more a bonus here than a necessity, you saw how much of a tough time the enemy had breaking through the somewhat weaker 148th at Daurstein. His forces can be used to plug in gaps, our forces are entirely able to fight for 2 armies.
I have also found a pretty good fortification plan in terms of mechanics, so there is that.
So, I've had a longer thought about our basic battleplan and discovered a decent use for one type of fortifications. Now, the mechanics are a bit open in the air, but if the broadly resemble the previous ones, this will be highly effective.
So, what should our plan actually be? We have gotten an unexpected boon in the form of the strike force we are able to deploy on the other side of the river. This is essentially a surprise attack, on where we aim to destroy the enemy artillery, overrun their rear guard and try to block them from using the bridgehead. This plan potentially enables substantial wins, but it's also somewhat fragile: We need to both ensure that the majority of the enemy crosses the bridge to actually use numerical superiority, deal with the enemy cavalry, and inflict a defeat on the main force in order to surrender, as they would be far more likely to attempt a break out against two units that surrender. It's not unmanageable (potentially killing enemy artillery with our lancers would allow us to start gaining momentum), but it's something that requires very precise timing in addition to masterminding a breaking of the enemy main force on our side while giving the enemy a plausible reason to attempt a bridgehead.
With this in mind, I found a particular mechanical fortification interaction that is extremely helpful: One of the reasons I considered wolf holes to be largely useless is their flat movement cost on one tile, with no guarantee the enemy would actually want to move across this tile. But what if we ensured the enemy would have to move across the tile? To this end, I thin there is a strong advantage to placing wolf holes in front of our infantry. The way this would be playing out is the enemy would desire to charge our infantry behind them, allocate the necessary charge movement (probably a double charge, given the expected distances) and hope to start a melee early. This assault would be happily charging across seemingly open terrain, only to get stopped dead in it's tracks from a wolf hole. Not only that, it would also critically stop one tile away from our units, meaning they would be able to shoot at close range distance (61 casualties from 2 shots using regular units) and loose the impact of their charge due to those getting cancelled (1 action to move into 2 tiles away, 1.5 action to move to the trapped tile in front of them).
The result is an enemy that starts a melee heavily wounded, getting only one attack instead of 2. If combined with the breastworks, we have a forward position that is seemingly best taken by storm and suddenly turns into a heavily fortified position, nearly unable to be straightforwardly charged (3 actions to be charged from a distance of 4, 2 actions to be charged from the vulnerable distance of 2). The relevant fortification is expensive in terms of points (n = length of the wolf holes, 2*n for wolf holes and 2n+2 points if we want to be thorough and protect against charges from strange angels, though that might be unnecessary if we favor a ^ shape akin to the lunettes rather than a straight line). Still, we this as the key element of our defenses, the enemy is dealt an initial blow during contact: After bleeding the units that are crossing the bridge, we then deny them a proper charge onto our forward position, which can't be taken by artillery bombardment (-60 base penalty, akin to Rotholz), a straight charge, only with a slow and extended melee that gives us some firm terrain advantage. The initial assault will likely quickly shatter due to dealing next to no damage and being stuck, giving us an early morale advantage.
The impact on enemy tactics: Rather than a simple assault, the better option is try to bypass the position and hit the vulnerable flanks. This necessitates both a longer line and reserves for a more extensive battle, as you have to keep up the pressure in the center in order to prevent those units from constantly firing and bring reserves in. We can shape the battlefield with this, making the battle center around a longer line at the sides, attempting to flank our main line. From the enemy point of view, this also appears as our core trick: Bloody the enemy crossing force, surprise the enemy in the center and make their assault unviable, and potentially overrun forces with a charge in the center. Against an opponent who doesn't fully commit to the bridgehead, this would be incredibly bloody. Against an opponent that does fully commit, our strike force comes into play and disables the enemy artillery and line of retreat. If we can get some very tight timing right, we can overrun much of the enemy artillery and capture a lot of their infantry.
TLDR: Putting wolfholes before our units basically allows us to prevent a charge on them, creating a situation where we can use 2 reactive shots + melee counter while the enemy just gets one melee attack on their turn. Later units would need to commit to a blind 3 action charge, which will not work in breaking the position. Depending on how far we want to go with this, we could either purely use wolf holes behind naturally defensive terrain or combine wolf holes and breastworks for a terrifying field fortification that can't be stormed, bombarded or effectively taken in melee, only bypassed. Based on the old system, we would get a simply line for 1 fortification action and a quite strong position from 2.
If we are getting orders to assault, we have some issues. Though those can also be mitigated by spending a week or so more on the preparations, as the 6th can drill more and get their supply up. Plus we have the perfect justification for hesitating there, we literally outlined that the moment to authorize a strike would have been 2 weeks ago and they told us to just hold territory. If somebody tries slinging mud over this, we have very good publicly known material to turn this around. The 6th can be brought back up to auxiliary, if not full strength within a turn (+2 drill, +1 morale) and would work somewhat decently after a couple of joined battles (+2 per victory). It takes his ones out of commission for a while, though that doesn't really throw a wrench into our reformed army. It's not great, but our army can work around this state.
I think that is a good argument for that in the long-term, plus there political one that is in character. Arné will ultimately not be truly safe as long as it has enemies on every corner, which requires creating border nations who like, or are at the very least comfortable with Arné. Nations which will need to brought in collaboration slowly and steadily. Raka herself has seen just how much being personally materially affected can change people's outlook, the revolution in Arné would have picked up far less steam without mass firing of the military or widespread starvation and tax issues. And people are certainly not going to be any more happy about being robbed by foreigners, especially when they surrendered under the condition of being protected from being looted. A reputation for reliably allowing safe surrenders and protecting those under her charge is very useful for securing territory and ensuring the peace can be won.
Ultimately, these aligned territories will live and fall based on public tolerance for their new governments, and that requires trust. Trust that is hard to build and easy to loose. Every bit of looting and broken promises now will be paid for with the lives and salaries of future soldiers, one that hunt rebels and put down uprisings. There are reasons for her believe the republic can't stand on force alone. (Real life foreknowledge certainly indicates so, considering that Napoleon's empire trouble in Spain and enforcing the continental system by raw force).
Also, I do agree with this. Long-term, allies are needed and the propaganda war matters. Our enemies will try to portray Revolutionary Arne as an untrustworthy partner and its armies as undisciplined rabble. Guillory just handed them a very easy propaganda win, so taking the hardline stance on the looters here may actually end up helping a lot in the long term.
In the short term, however, it does make the coming battle more difficult. But like RR pointed out, our troops are pretty experienced by now, fighting a defensive bridge battle against a Nornish professional army should not be an insurmountable challenge.
Side note, but I do wonder how much looting impacted the economic output of conquered territories. States would gain a large lump sum of valueables upfront, but the decision to loot would also cause economic damage, disrupt local economic relations due to a sudden lack of currency and lower demand for goods, all of which would mean fewer taxes in the occupied area. In a hypothetical scenario where we contrasted a surrender and subsequent taxation of the neighbouring area without looting, versus one with looting prior to building a sister republic. This is obviously not relevant to the assembly now who has some severe liquidity issues, but that might still be an interesting question in terms of overall financial reward of those strategies. I am nowhere near educated enough on economics to make any sort of statement on it, but that is something to ponder.
To be clear, @Photomajig , there's not going to likely be any hidden knock-on effects to our army? I'm assuming their POV in the "Harsh punishment" thing is basically, "Sucks to suck, luckily we're awesome unlike you losers" or whatnot?
Just trying to map out the possible results of this, since my more restrained suggestion doesn't seem to be liable to win.
To be clear, @Photomajig , there's not going to likely be any hidden knock-on effects to our army? I'm assuming their POV in the "Harsh punishment" thing is basically, "Sucks to suck, luckily we're awesome unlike you losers" or whatnot?
Just trying to map out the possible results of this, since my more restrained suggestion doesn't seem to be liable to win.
To be clear, @Photomajig , there's not going to likely be any hidden knock-on effects to our army? I'm assuming their POV in the "Harsh punishment" thing is basically, "Sucks to suck, luckily we're awesome unlike you losers" or whatnot?
Hmm, any hidden effects I would expect to be positive for our army, not negative. Harshly punishing the Sixth would show our own soldiers that Raka means business and insubordiation will be punished. We get to make an example while not hurting anyone in our army who could end up holding a grudge.
Note that doing nothing would hurt our army's morale since they would feel unfairly treated that the Sixth got the loot while the Fifth did not. So yes, I do think most of the Fifth army would consider the Sixth acceptable targets for Raka's ire.
@PhotomajigIs there a way we can salvage our relationship with Guillory after this, or is this permanent damage we won't ever be able to fix? Even if we've rendered the VI. Army effectively useless for the upcoming battle due to a general who resents us for treating them like a child and possibly crashing their morale down to a level where they're liable to run the moment they come under fire, I'd feel a lot better if there's a way to actually claw our way back from this in the long term.
To be clear, @Photomajig , there's not going to likely be any hidden knock-on effects to our army? I'm assuming their POV in the "Harsh punishment" thing is basically, "Sucks to suck, luckily we're awesome unlike you losers" or whatnot?
Just trying to map out the possible results of this, since my more restrained suggestion doesn't seem to be liable to win.
There aren't any other mechanical effects, no. Your men are probably rather pleased about the harshness of the punishments, since those guys dishonored your name and took all the loot that should have been theirs.
[X] Return the loot to Daurstein. It won't be possible to return everything or to guarantee that all of it goes to the rightful owners, but it'll certainly show the people of Daurstein that you are a woman of your word. The VI. Army will not be happy. Local opinion improves. VI. Army's Morale decreases by 3.
-[X] And demand harsher punishments. You'll not be satisfied with Guillory's planned dismissals and disciplinary actions. You need heads to roll for this. Something visible, so that Daurstein's people will know the perpetrators have faced justice for their crimes. Local opinion loss averted entirely. VI. Army's Morale decreases by 5.
[X] Return the loot to Daurstein. It won't be possible to return everything or to guarantee that all of it goes to the rightful owners, but it'll certainly show the people of Daurstein that you are a woman of your word. The VI. Army will not be happy. Local opinion improves. VI. Army's Morale decreases by 3.
-[X] And demand harsher punishments. You'll not be satisfied with Guillory's planned dismissals and disciplinary actions. You need heads to roll for this. Something visible, so that Daurstein's people will know the perpetrators have faced justice for their crimes. Local opinion loss averted entirely. VI. Army's Morale decreases by 5.
There aren't any other mechanical effects, no. Your men are probably rather pleased about the harshness of the punishments, since those guys dishonored your name and took all the loot that should have been theirs.
Is it actually possible to earn army level or general/marshal level traits?
Units can get traits, COs have them by default. But from the looks of things, the only way Rakka herself could have brought something unique to the table was if we'd picked her to be a Devil in chargen. Which would have allowed her (either alone or together with her personal regiment from step 2 of chargen) to do infernal magic.
Hmm, is the decision regarding the punishment for looting something that's liable to echo through the Convention, or is that sort of the thing where unless there's a firestorm they'd just trust the General on the scene, @Photomajig ?
Hmm, is the decision regarding the punishment for looting something that's liable to echo through the Convention, or is that sort of the thing where unless there's a firestorm they'd just trust the General on the scene, @Photomajig ?
It's kind of below their paygrade, but if someone wants to make a fuss about it later they can. Since the shift has been for more lenient discipline, they could feasibly try to paint you as some kind of unreasonably harsh brute. But it's not something they'd care about unless they already had an axe to grind, nor is it very damning ammunition if they did try. You're fully in your power to enact military justice and the harsher punishments in the vote option aren't anything illegal.
Scheduled vote count started by Photomajig on Mar 27, 2025 at 8:04 AM, finished with 71 posts and 27 votes.
[X] Return the loot to Daurstein. It won't be possible to return everything or to guarantee that all of it goes to the rightful owners, but it'll certainly show the people of Daurstein that you are a woman of your word. The VI. Army will not be happy. Local opinion improves. VI. Army's Morale decreases by 3.
-[X] And demand harsher punishments. You'll not be satisfied with Guillory's planned dismissals and disciplinary actions. You need heads to roll for this. Something visible, so that Daurstein's people will know the perpetrators have faced justice for their crimes. Local opinion loss averted entirely. VI. Army's Morale decreases by 5.
[X] Return the loot to Daurstein. It won't be possible to return everything or to guarantee that all of it goes to the rightful owners, but it'll certainly show the people of Daurstein that you are a woman of your word. The VI. Army will not be happy. Local opinion improves. VI. Army's Morale decreases by 3.
[X]Ship the loot to Loutharc. The Convention needs money, and if these goods can be used to keep the war effort solvent, then you're all for it. You'll have the bulk of it sent to Loutharc for appraisal. VI. Army Morale decreases by 2. You will receive ~100-300 Influence when the loot arrives.
[X] Return the loot to Daurstein. It won't be possible to return everything or to guarantee that all of it goes to the rightful owners, but it'll certainly show the people of Daurstein that you are a woman of your word. The VI. Army will not be happy. Local opinion improves. VI. Army's Morale decreases by 3.
-[X] And demand harsher punishments. You'll not be satisfied with Guillory's planned dismissals and disciplinary actions. You need heads to roll for this. Something visible, so that Daurstein's people will know the perpetrators have faced justice for their crimes. Local opinion loss averted entirely. VI. Army's Morale decreases by 5.
-[X] Write-in Name: 1st Elven Regiment of La Durance
-[X] Write-in Name: 1st Human Regiment of La Durance
Will we be returning the loot to their prior owners or directly to the city authorities?
It's unlikely but ideally I think it would have been better to perhaps consolidate/or sell the loot into a General Fund for Daurstein's repairs and compensation for its directly impacted citizens instead of giving it to their previous likely wealthy owners or guild authorities and trusting them not to prioritise their own interests over the rest of the city though that feels a bit too micro-managing.
It would also endear the population more positively towards us I feel
It doesn't make sense for it to take 8 Morale because like, that's, "The entire army dissolves on the spot after losing a brutal defeat" levels of loss.
I read the choice between harsher punishment and just returning loot as having independent rather than additive effects. Because I don't really think it would make sense to add opinion improvement and averting a loss together, as people would presumably at most stop being upset at our handling of the situation. Also, -5 morale is plenty of a malus for an army more held together by spirit than organization.
Well, we will see how their morale is in the coming turn anyways. They will hopefully recover somewhat in the coming turn, as I don't think Norn is going to rush the assault on a bridge that we held for a while. These sort of things do take preparation, especially if you attempt that as part of a larger assault while being on the march for several weeks right after participating in a war. Even if Guillory is going to have somewhat weak units, good battle planning and gaining some momentum can change that. The enemy is certainly going to take losses marching across a choke point onto our side of the river.
Yeah, for sure we will get a reputation out of this. It remains to be seen if that reputation will be mainly positive or negative. At the very least I expect us to be seen as having a major stick up our ass when it comes to discipline, with both this event and all the drilling we have been doing.
Yeah, for sure we will get a reputation out of this. It remains to be seen if that reputation will be mainly positive or negative. At the very least I expect us to be seen as having a major stick up our ass when it comes to discipline, with both this event and all the drilling we have been doing.
I read the choice between harsher punishment and just returning loot as having independent rather than additive effects. Because I don't really think it would make sense to add opinion improvement and averting a loss together, as people would presumably at most stop being upset at our handling of the situation. Also, -5 morale is plenty of a malus for an army more held together by spirit than organization.
Well, we will see how their morale is in the coming turn anyways. They will hopefully recover somewhat in the coming turn, as I don't think Norn is going to rush the assault on a bridge that we held for a while. These sort of things do take preparation, especially if you attempt that as part of a larger assault while being on the march for several weeks right after participating in a war. Even if Guillory is going to have somewhat weak units, good battle planning and gaining some momentum can change that. The enemy is certainly going to take losses marching across a choke point onto our side of the river.
I honestly suspect that this is going to be our last March action. The enemy taking their time probably just means it'll be more than two or three March actions.
Which is fine. We kinda have the Fortifications and the Hospital and... that's about it? Everything else action-wise is just extra. Not particularly interested in making new units. Maybe if we have a fourth action we do one last Drill for the road? Depends on how much your Wolf Hole idea would cost.
