Army of Liberty: a Fantasy Revolutionary Warfare Quest

[Red Rationalist]

He will ignore the path through the Räuberwald, which allows him to buy pass our fortifications and fight us as an equal, he will ignore doing a very long Bombardement, He will send his units in for a 1% chance at success.

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You mean committing an army to a 15 turn track and deploying them behind hills because he had psychic visions of my exact plan to eventually win by bombardment after this? Yes, I didn't consider this. Neither will he, in all likelihood. You've yet to explain a single thing about how this scenario ends with him winning.

Also, let's not exaggerate his appraisment of assualting Rotholz - generals do commit to plans with poor chances of sucess, the key is making him believe he can win (like keeping our artillery position in the initial turns hidden) and putting him under pressure.

The plan is flexible because we're putting units down that can fall back to the primary line easily. There's one tile where he can hit the 5th or the screens at medium range, and that's Rotholz Turm itself. If he posts up his HArt there before he begins advancing, fine, that position isn't really useful for him for any other purposes, and we have our cavalry able to approach from the south and try to gank it before his main push starts (since a Rotholz cannon cannot fire south). If he posts up during his main advance (which doesn't match his established tactics) then that's less optimal but we can still easily fall back after doing some attrition shots and we've got the wolf holes as plan B.

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There is no primary line here. There is Klinzberg, and then there are positions at the side without cover where we shove surplus units. Those positions offer no flexibility-

Also, you're mistaken about the hill safety. Artillery on the wooded hill (NE,NE, NW of Rotholz) can shoot at the hills in medium range OR field artillery on the neighbouring hills. You can count the tiles, it's 7 away. The position could be under constant fire, thus forcing an eventual retreat and limiting us to the deployment zone.

 

[NSchwerte]

You mean committing an army to a 15 turn track and deploying them behind hills because he had psychic visions of my exact plan to eventually win by bombardment after this? Yes, I didn't consider this. Neither will he, in all likelihood. You've yet to explain a single thing about how this scenario ends with him winning.

Also, let's not exaggerate his appraisment of assualting Rotholz - generals do commit to plans with poor chances of sucess, the key is making him believe he can win (like keeping our artillery position in the initial turns hidden) and putting him under pressure.

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Your plan is incredibly obvious.

Like it's the exact same plan as Brutet, he knows how we played Brutet because he got intel from the army of the west.

I mean your counter to Räuberwald was that he wouldn't do it, so I assumed that you are aware that we can't counter it, because your counter consists of "our artillery and cavalry will magically stop him"

 

[NSchwerte]

There is no primary line here. There is Klinzberg, and then there are positions at the side without cover where we shove surplus units. Those positions offer no flexibility-

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The positions at the side don't need cover because he has no LOS in them

 

[NSchwerte]

Would von Trotha do a long range bombardment of this Fort Kinzberg? the most exposed unit are halflings in a village, with -50-40-10= -100 cover and halfling defensive advantage.

That's 0.81 casualties per turn

 

[Mishar]

[X] Plan Fortress Kinzberg
-[X] this plan: Army of Liberty: a Fantasy Revolutionary Warfare Quest Fantasy - Historic

 

[Red Rationalist]

The positions at the side don't need cover because he has no LOS in them

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Not if he goes for the long range attack.

Would von Trotha do a long range bombardment of this Fort Kinzberg? the most exposed unit are artillery in a village, with -50-40-10 cover and halfling defensive advantage

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What else can he do? March infantry there without any fire support? Wait for us to die of boredom?

Your plan is incredibly obvious.

Like it's the exact same plan as Brutet, he knows how we played Brutet because he got intel from the army of the west.

I mean your counter to Räuberwald was that he wouldn't do it, so I assumed that you are aware that we can't counter it, because your counter consists of "our artillery and cavalry will magically stop him"

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Ah, you're assuming he has full information about Brutet. Why? And furthermore, his alternatives are "use as much of your munition as it takes while staying your deployment zone" or "attempt a non-credible bypass trough thick forest."

There's nothing magical about stopping him unless he deploys his entire artillery force to the east. Just to be clear, this is the deployment Nschwerte tried to discuss as a full counter against my plan:

Yeah, somehow I don't think that his first choice in deploying units.

 

[Nerdorama]

You mean committing an army to a 15 turn track and deploying them behind hills because he had psychic visions of my exact plan to eventually win by bombardment after this? Yes, I didn't consider this. Neither will he, in all likelihood. You've yet to explain a single thing about how this scenario ends with him winning.

Also, let's not exaggerate his appraisment of assualting Rotholz - generals do commit to plans with poor chances of sucess, the key is making him believe he can win (like keeping our artillery position in the initial turns hidden) and putting him under pressure.

There is no primary line here. There is Klinzberg, and then there are positions at the side without cover where we shove surplus units. Those positions offer no flexibility-

Also, you're mistaken about the hill safety. Artillery on the wooded hill (NE,NE, NW of Rotholz) can shoot at the hills in medium range OR field artillery on the neighbouring hills. You can count the tiles, it's 7 away. The position could be under constant fire, thus forcing an eventual retreat and limiting us to the deployment zone.

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It's not a matter of counting, I simply didn't see the hills on that tile. That's definitely a problem, but a cavalry rush there is still viable since the whole eastern side of that area can't be hit by artillery to the north. In anticipation of this I'd probably have our present cavalry reserve start moving north toward the east side of Rotholz (behind LOS blockers) to try to ambush the forward artillery deployment.

Honestly I might do this anyway since he'll likely go for either that hill or Rotholz Turm itself regardless.

 

[EagerListener]

The 5th is there to disrupt Von Trotha If he moves into the Rotholz.

If he doesn't do that it will simply sprint back into cover of the Kinzberg

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That answers why the 5th is there, it doesn't answer if it's a good idea to place it there specifically. It can't hit much and placing it next to the 84th or placing it further up would be a better position for the 5th.

 

[Red Rationalist]

Your plan is incredibly obvious.

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Ignoring my own critiques, your plan consists of "Stay in place and wait for the enemy to run into artillery range". Not exactly an enigma.

It's not a matter of counting, I simply didn't see the hills on that tile. That's definitely a problem, but a cavalry rush there is still viable since the whole eastern side of that area can't be hit by artillery to the north. In anticipation of this I'd probably have our present cavalry reserve start moving north toward the east side of Rotholz (behind LOS blockers) to try to ambush the forward artillery deployment.

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I don't blame you, the wooded tiles is unclear. But I think if your plan consists of trying to assault the forward firing position, that is unlikely to work out. The hills can be covered with infantry easily enough, plus he's completely free to set up his own field artillery in the middle of the map, making this cavalry attack unlikely to work out. Cavalry on their own can't break trough infantry and fire support.

 

[NSchwerte]

Not if he goes for the long range attack.

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No? At a long range attack he doesn't have LOS on them. Like that's just the mechanics, there are hills in the way.

What else can he do? March infantry there without any fire support? Wait for us to die of boredom?

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At that point he would be better served just calling off the attack instead of shooting us for 50 turns and killing 100 of our guys during it.

He still needs to care about his munitions after all, if he spends them all shooting us for 144 turns, he has killed 300 of our troops, can no longer fire his artillery and somehow needs to fight the 5th and 6th Army without any ranged combat.

Fortifying and trying to win against the 5th+6th assault would be a more productive use of his time.

Ah, you're assuming he has full information about Brutet. Why? And furthermore, his alternatives are "use as much of your munition as it takes while staying your deployment zone" or "attempt a non-credible bypass trough thick forest

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He has full information about Brutet because...

He has the professional Nypmh regiment, whose CO probably is aware and can explain how the battle went seeing as their are elite troops and likely schooled.

He has the Prov Elven Artillery, whose leader was next to Wachenheim during the entire battle and who is an offensive genius, so likely good at understanding offensives and what went wrong.

He has multiple regiment who carried out the assault and could tell him what went wrong, not in his army but he could still interrogate them about their perspective

There's nothing magical about stopping him unless he deploys his entire artillery force to the east. Just to be clear, this is the deployment Nschwerte tried to discuss as a full counter against my plan:

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I would really appreciate if you would not misrepresent what I am saying and explaining. This would obviously not be his first choice, but rather a shift to bypass the Rotholz when he sees the Breastworks and realises we intend to repeat Brutet.

And of course, I do want it to be mentioned that you cannot actually offer a counter to this strategy.

That answers why the 5th is there, it doesn't answer if it's a good idea to place it there specifically. It doesn't have the range to hit much and placing it next to the 84th or placing it further up would be a better position for the 5th.

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The 5th needs to be able to shoot into the Rotholz Valley, that's why it can't be next to the 84th. Or am I misunderstanding something

Ignoring my own critiques, your plan consists of "Stay in place and wait for the enemy to run into artillery range". Not exactly an enigma.

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Yeah, but my plan doesn't rely on Von Trotha Not understanding it, it relies on him having no answer

 

[Nerdorama]

Ignoring my own critiques, your plan consists of "Stay in place and wait for the enemy to run into artillery range". Not exactly an enigma.

I don't blame you, the wooded tiles is unclear. But I think if your plan consists of trying to assault the forward firing position, that is unlikely to work out. The hills can be covered with infantry easily enough, plus he's completely free to set up his own field artillery in the middle of the map, making this cavalry attack unlikely to work out. Cavalry on their own can't break trough infantry and fire support.

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Middle of the map can't hit E or SE of the wooded hill tile either, which is what I'd be using as the attack vector here. The only problem would be the HArt itself supporting its screens and I'm confident enough in our cavalry to say that they'd probably win the skirmish with med-range support from the 5th.

 

[EagerListener]

The 5th needs to be able to shoot into the Rotholz Valley, that's why it can't be next to the 84th. Or am I misunderstanding something

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If that's the case then why isn't it further up, it can basically hit as much into the valley if it where at the position next to the 84th arty, except there it can cover more of our position. If we want to cover more of the valley, then why not move it up? @Nerdorama, since your the plan maker could you answer my question?

 

[Red Rationalist]

Yeah, but my plan doesn't rely on Von Trotha Not understanding it, it relies on him having no answer

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The issue is he has one. One I've pointed out repeatedly, long range attritional bombardment. He hits us for little damage from 12 tiles, we can't shoot back (13). Wastes a lot of ammo, a lot of time and we end up with casulties while he takes none.

He has full information about Brutet because...

He has the professional Nypmh regiment, whose CO probably is aware and can explain how the battle went seeing as their are elite troops and likely schooled.

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Stop: You're assuming the individual CO have the full picture, Trotha thinks the situation plays out identically despite him having horse artillery and more firepower, with no clear mud. And his willing to commit an infinite amount of ammo for softening up a position. You're attempts to poke holes in my plan requires a clairvoyant enemy.

Middle of the map can't hit E or SE of the wooded hill tile either, which is what I'd be using as the attack vector here. The only problem would be the HArt itself supporting its screens and I'm confident enough in our cavalry to say that they'd probably win the skirmish with med-range support from the 5th.

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Yeah, but he can set up just south of Sarnscheid. Any artillery attack is either running into the ground because of the Rotholz forest OR would run trough medium artillery range of the artillery. Your strategy is countered by a bite and hold tactic where one part of the artillery moves a couple tiles while the other ready fires. Eventually you have to pull back entirely.

No? At a long range attack he doesn't have LOS on them. Like that's just the mechanics, there are hills in the way.

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The position south of the hills is more north than Klinzberg, meaning long range artillery in the middle of the map can reach it. This position can be safely set up and slowly inflict casulties on the eastern position.

 

[natruska]

keep forgetting to comment on this:

Something's off here. Von Trotha would not order such a haphazard withdrawal without cause. The weakness you think you see is feigned, intentional. It's a trap. You grunt a laugh as the pieces come together. How stupid does he think you are?

"Bait. That's bait."

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[EagerListener]

@Red Rationalist, why is the 31st artillery going to be on the right? I don't see a need for it to go to the right and hit into the forest. And also you're going to go there, why not place the 31st one to the left to it can get there quicker?

 

[NSchwerte]

The issue is he has one. One I've pointed out repeatedly, long range attritional bombardment. He hits us for little damage from 12 tiles, we can't shoot back (13). Wastes a lot of ammo, a lot of time and we end up with casulties while he takes none.

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And as I have pointed out if he does that we could wait 144 turns for the reinforcements while not actually taking meaningful damage, which is why he obviously will not do that.

Also field artillery has 14 long range so everything is shifted back there.

Stop: You're assuming the individual CO have the full picture, Trotha thinks the situation plays out identically despite him having horse artillery and more firepower, with no clear mud. And his willing to commit an infinite amount of ammo for softening up a position. You're attempts to poke holes in my plan requires a clairvoyant enemy.

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Come on, this is silly, have at least a little respect for our enemy and assume that he is not a child

He has the perspective of I think 5 different COs, including two artillery COs who were right next to Wachenheim for the entire battle and knew what was happening.

He knows what happened during Brutet.

Von Trotha having Horse artillery is completely insignificant when it comes to his planning for the assault, because that horse artillery doesn't change anything.

Von Trotha having more firepower doesn't change anything, seeing as our cover makes us even better positioned against his attack than we were at Brutet, even with him having more firepower

The Mud doesn't really matter, though if he actually is as stupid as you think he is maybe he will think like that.

Yeah, but he can set up just south of Sarnscheid. Any artillery attack is either running into the ground because of the Rotholz forest OR would run trough medium artillery range of the artillery. Your strategy is countered by a bite and hold tactic where one part of the artillery moves a couple tiles while the other ready fires. Eventually you have to pull back entirely

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But if he sets up just south of Sarnscheid he can't do his long range bombardment you say is his only way to win.

The position south of the hills is more north than Klinzberg, meaning long range artillery in the middle of the map can reach it. This position can be safely set up and slowly inflict casulties on the eastern position.

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no?

the square is where has to set up to avoid our long range bombardemont and its not even close to hitting the 42nd here

 

[Red Rationalist]

@Red Rationalist, why is the 31st artillery going to be on the right? I don't see a need for it to go to the right and hit into the forest. And also you're going to go there, why not place the 31st one to the left to it can get there quicker?

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So, to explain this point again: One of the potential issues with my plan is an attempt by infantry to cross the Rotholz. The 31st is committed there, since I want to cover my flanks. And putting it one left doesn't actually make it faster, you have 2 plains (2) vs. one hill tile (2).

 

[Nerdorama]

If that's the case then why isn't it further up, it can basically hit as much into the valley if it where at the position next to the 84th arty, except there it can cover more of our position. If we want to cover more of the valley, then why not move it up? @Nerdorama, since your the plan maker could you answer my question?

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I don't understand what you're talking about because the 84th arty is way back on the main line and can't hit shit in the valley. The 5th, meanwhile, can cover the whole thing except the very far right file after one move. It's also just far south enough there that it can pivot to cover the approach to our main lines if there's no pressing need to move it for safety (although there probably will be).

Yeah, but he can set up just south of Sarnscheid.

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And get killed by our main line.

The problem I think we're running into here is that you and Schwerte are trying to find perfect initial strategies with no counters, and those don't exist. My goal is to create a strong initial position, anticipate what Trotha will do to counter it, then try to counter that. As much as I'm a fan of "win first and then go to war", that doesn't mean that you don't adapt your plan in the field based on your opponent's moves. Trotha will inevitably have ways to counter our play, we just need to have plans in place to counter his counter.

 

[The Laurent]

That's an attitude deserving of an approval vote.

[X] Plan Fortress Kinzberg

[X] Plan Valley Outpost

 

[NSchwerte]

The problem I think we're running into here is that you and Schwerte are trying to find perfect initial strategies with no counters, and those don't exist. My goal is to create a strong initial position, anticipate what Trotha will do to counter it, then try to counter that. As much as I'm a can of "win first and then go to war", that doesn't mean that you don't adapt your plan in the field based on your opponent's moves. Trotha will inevitably have ways to counter our play, we just need to have plans in place to counter his counter.

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I disagree, there has not been a counter established to my plan that is not absolutely ludicrous like Von Trotha bombarding us for 5 casualties per turn.

Yes, Von Trotha does have different approaches, but I did outline how we will counter these different approaches already

 

[The Laurent]

My own perspective is that it's actually pretty hard to establish what situations might have what countering because we don't know where things are. Dice luck will very much influence the options he has for countering us, and that we have for countering him. Therefore seeing someone actually acknowledge that they've not created some uncounterable plan is enough to get an approval vote.

 

[EagerListener]

So, to explain this point again: One of the potential issues with my plan is an attempt by infantry to cross the Rotholz. The 31st is committed there, since I want to cover my flanks. And putting it one left doesn't actually make it faster, you have 2 plains (2) vs. one hill tile (2).

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Ok, might have missed your explanation in all the discussion, but I don't think that's likely or that if it does happen we need an extra artillery unit there. In addition that artillery unit can't really support us anywhere else. Also, it's not 2 plains vs one hill. It's three hills vs two plains and one hill. Edit: Might have misread a plains tile as a hill.

 

[NSchwerte]

My own perspective is that it's actually pretty hard to establish what situations might have what countering because we don't know where things are. Dice luck will very much influence the options he has for countering us, and that we have for countering him. Therefore seeing someone actually acknowledge that they've not created some uncounterable plan is enough to get an approval vote.

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I simply disagree with people talking about how my plan can be easily countered and then never offering an actual idea on how to counter it

 

[Red Rationalist]

the square is where has to set up to avoid our long range bombardemont and its not even close to hitting the 42nd here

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That is inaccurate. You've miscounted the maximum range by 3.

The Mud doesn't really matter, though if he actually is as stupid as you think he is maybe he will think like that.

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Thinking he can take Rotholz under different conditions isn't stupidity. You have a real bad habit of assuming every enemy thinks exactly like you, having your willingness to spend munitions and your adversion to any infantry attack. You aren't making grounded assumptions about the enemy, especially as your plan require him to consent to 3 turns of subjecting his infantry to bombardment.

And get killed by our main line.

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Not if he puts the screens one tiles out of range. This opens up eventual attrition. So either absolutely nothing happens during the battle, or we take some attrition.

The problem I think we're running into here is that you and Schwerte are trying to find perfect initial strategies with no counters,

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I'm not. I'm setting up a strategy that allows effective deployment of firepower against him, rather than wait and hope he runs into our range. Running out the clock isn't desireable.

 

[The Laurent]

I simply disagree with people talking about how my plan can be easily countered and then never offering an actual idea on how to counter it

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But that's not responding to what Nerdoroma said. As far as I can tell, they didn't say, "Your plan can be easily countered." They said that both of you are "trying to find perfect initial strategies with no counters."

And... it seems that that's exactly what you're claiming. This is an accurate statement of your perspective. Saying that they're claiming that your plan can be easily encountered is factually wrong.