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An Unknown Future

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Good, good. Lots more conversation is starting to roll in. With any luck this trend will continue.

But I can't just rely on luck, can I? Now how to increase conversation without compromising the game...

*greed for highly active quest with players doing their best intensifies*

Well, there's two obvious ways available to me at the moment.

First, consider the following.
bluefur87 said:
One's Own Way
The Better Way is not merely a single path, but a path that is different for each individual.
Pros: More options when facing a crises, the top two voted for reaction actions will be chosen.
Cons: More things are considered a crises by your population, reaction effectiveness is decreased.
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bluefur87 said:
In the end, the foxes decided to...
[][React] Send the extra rafts to those outside of the camp
[][React] Fish for Big Fish
[][React] Teach every fox to fish
[][React] Scout Mountain Sea
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I kept on waiting for someone to notice that last night. Should I introduce a tag for (One's Own Way) for votes that action applies to?

You may also want to consider if certain combinations could trigger something good or bad.

Second easy way to stir up some more activity...
Vote Tally : An Unknown Future - Original | Page 20 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 486-499]
##### NetTally 1.9.9

Task: Story

[4][Story] Banding together in face of a threat
[4][Story] The power of symbols


Task: React

[4][React] Send the extra rafts to those outside of the camp
[2][React] Scout Mountain Sea

Total No. of Voters: 8
We got a tie vote! Some good points have been made on both sides. Most people are focusing heavily on the narrative aspects of the values, which I find neat. You may want to consider potential drawbacks? I'm honestly not sure how I could stir up the vote there other than by encouraging some of the lurkers to come out of the woodwork to break the tie.

Still, I feel like I should do at least one more thing to stir things up...

I could talk about where and when the actual kitsune's will form, as that's rather locked in at this point, but no, that's giving things away. Even if it is happening soon...

Oh, I know. How about some people ask some questions and I'll what I can when I get back on Tuesday? There will obviously be some limitations as to what I can and can't answer, but if you find yourself slightly confused at the mechanics, or want to try and figure out some of the more interesting things in the quest, now's a good time to think on some stuff.

Perhaps ask some behind the scenes stuff about particular mechanics or which groups/races are doing what? I'm open to giving broad information since I don't think you'll be able to leverage it into a serious advantage.
 
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[X][React] Teach every fox to fish
[X][React] Send the extra rafts to those outside of the camp

[X][Story] Banding together in face of a threat
[X][Story] The power of symbols
 
Considering that we only have two rafts currently, sending them out to scout at the same time as we send one to those outside the camp means we're unlikely to keep either of them.
 
I really think focusing the story on togetherness is necessary. We're already tiny and the last thing we need is even more fracturing.
 
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Timewinders said:
I really think focusing the story on togetherness is necessary. We're already tony and the last thing we need is even more fracturing.
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Thats why Symbols. Symbols are how you actually unify people across multiple locations.
Simple groupthink and communalism works when you are all in one place, interacting with each other. For longer distances you need a symbol to say "This is Us", because the vast majority of the two communities never meet.
 
@veekie I would suggest voting in two choices for the React vote. I don't think it's wise to send BOTH of our rafts away right now, either.
 
@Cariyaga you do realize that we don't literally have "only two rafts" right now right? We have 2/1 Rafts, which means that one in rafts means we have enough rafts for our entire main camp at the least, as we have 2 rafts we have rafts enough for the main camp and surplus. It's a representation of how much we have and need, not literally how many we have, others we would be starving to death because, well, one raft is not enough to allow a population of a hundred or so to live entirely off fish and a few plants.

In short, our stats are a representation, not a literal.
SO instead of picturing it as having 2 rafts when only one is needed, instead picture it as supply and demand.

[ Supply / Demand ] Instead of [ 2/1 ]

We currently have excess supply to our demand, and it's what to do with that excess that we are voting on.
 
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Kirron 999 said:
@Cariyaga you do realize that we don't literally have "only two rafts" right now right? We have 2/1 Rafts, which means that one in rafts means we have enough rafts for our entire main camp at the least, as we have 2 rafts we have rafts enough for the main camp and surplus. It's a representation of how much we have and need, not literally how many we have, others we would be starving to death because, well, one raft is not enough to allow a population of a hundred or so to live entirely off fish and a few plants.

In short, our stats are a representation, not a literal.
SO instead of picturing it as having 2 rafts when only one is needed, instead picture it as supply and demand.

[ Supply / Demand ] Instead of [ 2/1 ]

We currently have excess supply to our demand, and it's what to do with that excess that we are voting on.
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Oh. That makes more sense.
 
veekie said:
Thats why Symbols. Symbols are how you actually unify people across multiple locations.
Simple groupthink and communalism works when you are all in one place, interacting with each other. For longer distances you need a symbol to say "This is Us", because the vast majority of the two communities never meet.
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That sounds reasonable for the long term for keeping people coordinated across distances but it doesn't solve our short-term problems. The tribe is like 100 people and despite everyone knowing each other personally, they just don't get along and they often split up, leaving us with an even smaller population. We need that simple groupthink and communalism in order for the tribe to grow enough for communication across distance to be a serious issue. Right now it's not inconceivable that one major disaster could cause tribe members to just scatter to the four winds and join up with other groups. We can survive a civil war, we can survive being reduced to a single settlement/city-state, we can survive vassalhood. But if the tribe just ceases to exist as an entity then that's a real loss condition.
 
The problem isn't that.

The problem is that the moment we start a new camp they stop identifying themselves with the larger group within a generation.

Symbols solve that problem thoroughly, as two groups can share a symbol much more easily.
 
Timewinders said:
That sounds reasonable for the long term for keeping people coordinated across distances but it doesn't solve our short-term problems. The tribe is like 100 people and despite everyone knowing each other personally, they just don't get along and they often split up, leaving us with an even smaller population. We need that simple groupthink and communalism in order for the tribe to grow enough for communication across distance to be a serious issue. Right now it's not inconceivable that one major disaster could cause tribe members to just scatter to the four winds and join up with other groups. We can survive a civil war, we can survive being reduced to a single settlement/city-state, we can survive vassalhood. But if the tribe just ceases to exist as an entity then that's a real loss condition.
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Except that isn't really what it does. It explicitly states that we unify in the face of a threat.
[][Story] Banding together in face of a threat
It does not mean that we have consistent simple groupthink, it just means that we are unified when we come under threat, which, depending on how you see it, is not likely to include internal strife, only unification in the face of outside threats.
 
Leaving in a bit, so I don't have time to go into detail or anything, but I once again find it interesting that you all are narratively correct, but have yet to draw the proper mechanical ramifications. Of course, narrative is also really important, because when things start going wonky I look to it to determine exactly how and how bad they go wonky.

Also, you've all managed to get right back into a tie.

Come on lurkers!

Don't let this be decided with a coin flip!
 
A question for @bluefur87 when he gets back, have our people developed Clovis point tools or have we never come into contact with a culture that possesses them/made them ourselves? And while I doubt this would be answered, what would be required to develop them if we don't posses them?
 
I have returned and am mostly over my post travel recovery. Travel really doesn't agree with me.
Kirron 999 said:
A question for @bluefur87 when he gets back, have our people developed Clovis point tools or have we never come into contact with a culture that possesses them/made them ourselves? And while I doubt this would be answered, what would be required to develop them if we don't posses them?
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You do not have them, nor have you met anyone who has them. Most assured method would be to go look for other cultures that have them in order to get the tool type.

As for developing technology, there are generally three ways to go about it. And sort of a fourth.
  1. Repeat the relevant actions until you figure it out. (These are skill based techs)
  2. What currently amounts to having a random burst of inspiration. (Innovation based techs, this will evolve based on certain things)
  3. Gain the correct resources/knowledge/other techs/need to unlock the tech. This may still require certain actions to be unlocked. (Basically, some techs have prerequisites. Otherwise these are gained the same way as the other two types)
  4. Find someone else who has learned it. Get inspired and have your relevant users of said tech try copying it from them.
Every tech your looking for is locked behind some combination of the above. Some may be locked if you preemptively meet a need they would fill, others may just be currently something that your foxes would consider stupid and impractical even if they did figure out how to use it, and of course there are tons of things that you simply do not have the knowledge or resources to figure out at the moment.

This reminds me. While I have done a great deal of research and have a tech tree filled out myself with various things you may or may not acquire, it would be a big help if people discussed what techs they think they should aim for and how to unlock them. I am sure I am missing certain techs, either because I did not come across them in my research or I simply had a brain fart when making my list and every time I look over it. Note, I am trying to keep the tree somewhat simple, but I'm willing to add techs as fluff or as a more detailed explanation of what you do have.

Not that that is immediately important. There aren't too many major techs where you are. You are missing the tech I would personally try to beeline in your situation. Then again, if you were to beeline techs that you have OOC knowledge about, you may miss out on other random and non traditional techs I have sprinkled around. One of which you are closer to than other groups, but I do not know how long until you either start realizing it or simply luck into the knowledge.

That's part of the game though!

I'll be continuing to answer various questions with greater detail than normal until I lock the vote tomorrow morning. Current Talley is as follows for those interested.
Vote Tally : An Unknown Future - Original | Page 20 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 486-517]
##### NetTally 1.9.9

Task: React

[7][React] Send the extra rafts to those outside of the camp
[5][React] Scout Mountain Sea
[1][React] Teach every fox to fish


Task: Story

[6][Story] The power of symbols
[5][Story] Banding together in face of a threat

Total No. of Voters: 10
Edit: I seem to still be somewhat tired. I think I've corrected all my mistakes in writing coherently now.
 
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I would still strongly rather teach every fox to fish. While it does have the downsides of lack of specialization, it also guarantees our focus will remain on fishing for the long run, and therefore will improve our innovations in that regard.
 
Cariyaga said:
I would still strongly rather teach every fox to fish. While it does have the downsides of lack of specialization, it also guarantees our focus will remain on fishing for the long run, and therefore will improve our innovations in that regard.
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Wrong way round. Fishing innovations are currently gated by crafting innovations. By teaching every fox to fish you're delaying the development of better boats and nets because your artisans are too busy learning to fish than making better boats.
 
veekie said:
Wrong way round. Fishing innovations are currently gated by crafting innovations. By teaching every fox to fish you're delaying the development of better boats and nets because your artisans are too busy learning to fish than making better boats.
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Not actually the case. We're well within the capacity to learn how to make canoes.
 
Cariyaga said:
Not actually the case. We're well within the capacity to learn how to make canoes.
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Canoes are specialty artisan work which requires weeks of dedicated work to repeatedly burn, and scrape a large log, which must be harvested from a tree of suitable size(as opposed to a raft that can be made from lesser trees) including the significant work of constantly making new tools for the job. Forcing the artisans to learn to fish would ensure that they avoid such a time consuming method of making boats until they have metal tools
 
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veekie said:
Canoes are specialty artisan work which requires weeks of dedicated work to repeatedly burn, and scrape a large log, which must be harvested from a tree of suitable size(as opposed to a raft that can be made from lesser trees) including the significant work of constantly making new tools for the job. Forcing the artisans to learn to fish would ensure that they avoid such a time consuming method of making boats until they have metal tools
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Metal tools are wholly unnecesary. It is entirely possible to do so without them.

And, no, I entirely disagree that forcing artisans to learn to fish would stop them from time consuming methods of making boats. It'd do the opposite -- it'd force them to innovate to make their training easier.
 
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