Alchemical Solutions [Worm/Exalted] Thread 23: We Wonder Where Who Wanders When Watchers Wane

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Word of Gromweld:

The PRT and anyone with access to their records are under no illusions that Iris is a sapient entity of mindboggling power in his own right.
Not after what VoV did in Philadelphia and how Iris flexed in New York.
Anyone even mildly sensible will leave him alone.

Except that assumes Iris would have access to vast amounts of essence to do such stuff with. If Behemoth for example comes for round 2, where does Iris get the juice? Gromweld has also stated how hard it is for Iris to terraform BB for example, because it lacks Essence. And taking out an endbringer (for example) would require a LOT. And he still needs to be in SoPA range to get power from Taylor.

If he could just bitchslap endbringers, he presumably would not need to wait for such a long time to create a dot 1 demesne.

EDIT: As for SoPA repeater, he presumably needs to be in Taylors SoPA range to expand it? I can't recall, but I would assume so anyway or Taylor would have known where he was all the time, since she would have sensed the insects.

Also, insects won't really help against Behemoth.
 
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Except that assumes Iris would have access to vast amounts of essence to do such stuff with.
He's charging from E4 Taylor.
Vision had enough Essence from E3 Taylor to convert several tons of Essenceverse matter into soulsteel, and to outright murder Broadcast-chan in it's own sanctum-analogue.

Remember that Behemoth needed a megaton-range explosion to harm Iris' old suit, and that was built by Taylor out of a clock.
His current suit is made out of MMs and custom-designed for almost anything he's run into, from Siberian to Endbringer-class shenanigans.
I really don't want to think of what a 3CD can stuff into an Encounter Suit.

If he could just bitchslap endbringers, he presumably would not need to wait for such a long time to create a dot 1 demesne.
1)It's harder to create than destroy.

2)Other people create demesnes in Essenceverse.
Even Solar Wyld Shaping only converts chaotic Essence to other forms of stable Essence-matter.
Iris is creating a demesne in a world that isn't even made of Essence; that's a rather big deal.
Furthermore, he's trying to do it safely, so that it neither mutates the meatbags, nor goes into a runaway reaction to create a Wyld pocket.

3)Besides, he doesn't need to be able to outright obliterate an EB to project enough power to discourage them from persisting; EBs don't usually hang around after sufficiently painful discouragement.
And Iris has had an up-close look at two of them.

4)And the threat of VoV remains in extremis.
 
He's charging from E4 Taylor.
Vision had enough Essence from E3 Taylor to convert several tons of Essenceverse matter into soulsteel, and to outright murder Broadcast-chan in it's own sanctum-analogue.

Remember that Behemoth needed a megaton-range explosion to harm Iris' old suit, and that was built by Taylor out of a clock.
His current suit is made out of MMs and custom-designed for almost anything he's run into, from Siberian to Endbringer-class shenanigans.
I really don't want to think of what a 3CD can stuff into an Encounter Suit.

1)It's harder to create than destroy.

2)Other people create demesnes in Essenceverse.
Even Solar Wyld Shaping only converts chaotic Essence to other forms of stable Essence-matter.
Iris is creating a demesne in a world that isn't even made of Essence; that's a rather big deal.
Furthermore, he's trying to do it safely, so that it neither mutates the meatbags, nor goes into a runaway reaction to create a Wyld pocket.

3)Besides, he doesn't need to be able to outright obliterate an EB to project enough power to discourage them from persisting; EBs don't usually hang around after sufficiently painful discouragement.
And Iris has had an up-close look at two of them.

4)And the threat of VoV remains in extremis.

Because VoV didn't care if Taylor melted/went boom in the process.
 
He's charging from E4 Taylor.
Vision had enough Essence from E3 Taylor to convert several tons of Essenceverse matter into soulsteel, and to outright murder Broadcast-chan in it's own sanctum-analogue.

Vision got his juice from literally melting every single charm (and everything else) Taylor had. Gromweld infact confirmed that if we were willing to sacrifice charms for Iris to convert to raw essence, he would do the job faster.

Has the E4 really boosted the power Iris has so massively? I think Gromweld said he was getting more, but I did not get the impression it was THAT much more. Particularly with SoPA broken, and with Taylor not even around.

@Gromweld, are you willing to comment on how much power Iris is getting now, and does he need to be in SoPA range (or did E4 somehow change that rule?).

Remember that Behemoth needed a megaton-range explosion to harm Iris' old suit, and that was built by Taylor out of a clock.

You sure? I can't recall that, and it does not fit the description the first page: "in Creation's First Age some unknown agency clamped the great globe into a tight-fitting nest of three gimbaled rings so that the Eye could turn freely in all directions."

I would assume he had MM suit before. Probably made by a first age Solar or someone.

1)It's harder to create than destroy.

While true, Gromweld has gone with the "solar system tough" level for endbringers, so while I would accept this argument for vast majority of parahumans, its harder to accept that Iris could so easily take out an endbringer. Or several of them, since that possibility was also brought up.

2)Other people create demesnes in Essenceverse.

Fair.

3)Besides, he doesn't need to be able to outright obliterate an EB to project enough power to discourage them from persisting; EBs don't usually hang around after sufficiently painful discouragement.
And Iris has had an up-close look at two of them.

Thats not really true though. The endbringers flee after taking sufficient damage because they are jobbing the fights. Endbringers that are not holding back, and who might believe their existence was at risk (if they believe essence-conversion might screw them over) would probably fight until nothing but the super-duper-dense skeleton remains, and keep fighting.

4)And the threat of VoV remains in extremis.

This is a possible deterrent. However odds are that Taylor has told people how and why VoV was so strong (enraged Iris + ate and converted to essence all my charms and stuff) to the PRT, which means shard&endbringers would know too.
 
Well that revelation went about as well as could be expected.

Nothing is currently on fire so let's call that a win.
 
Thats not really true though. The endbringers flee after taking sufficient damage because they are jobbing the fights. Endbringers that are not holding back, and who might believe their existence was at risk (if they believe essence-conversion might screw them over) would probably fight until nothing but the super-duper-dense skeleton remains, and keep fighting.

Endbringers who are not holding back would just blow up Yellowstone and generally start from map-redrawing power level and then escalate though.
 
Has the E4 really boosted the power Iris has so massively? I think Gromweld said he was getting more, but I did not get the impression it was THAT much more. Particularly with SoPA broken, and with Taylor not even around.
Apparently so.
E4 activated the Spiritual Attunement submod, which drastically improves the mote flow.
Shit like projecting Truth across several thousand miles to everybody in a teleconference was not a feat he could casually perform beforehand.

Thats not really true though.
Essence doesn't work that way. It is not obliged to respect Nowhereverse soak; just ask Ziz.
Even Nowhereverse techniques are not obliged to respect Nowhereverse soak; Flechette can bypass such effects casually, and Simurgh was able to do the same thing to hit Leviathan's core.

This is an E9/E10 fetich with preptime, who just spent a week building himself an Encounter Suit; I suspect both he and Taylor have considered the problem of defense. I simply assume they have taken Steps that might be shown later in the story.
This is a possible deterrent. However odds are that Taylor has told people how and why VoV was so strong (enraged Iris + ate and converted to essence all my charms and stuff) to the PRT, which means shard&endbringers would know too.
Not really seeing the problem though.
Nothing states that Iris has to be angry to call VoV, or that Vision needs Taylor's body to build itself armor.

EDIT
You sure? I can't recall that, and it does not fit the description the first page: "in Creation's First Age some unknown agency clamped the great globe into a tight-fitting nest of three gimbaled rings so that the Eye could turn freely in all directions."
Iris came into the Nowhereverse naked.
His only covering was the Essence-infused brass and metal covering Taylor built out of her alarm clock.
 
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No, Saki! We have prettier people on the Assembly! Much better shipping fuel!

Though, actually, if she remembers that
The Great Maker has blessed you with the social presence to sway any heart
then she should be able to handle Cauldron.

Looking at it, I actually see this as a good thing. It's a scary thought that she might move out from under Taylor's direction, but I rather look forward to seeing her become her own person with initiative and true strength of will. Maker knows she can put it to good use. I don't think Cauldron will flip her. I'm not sure they could, mechanically. Then, she'll come back to have a sit down with Taylor as a peer, hopefully with the understanding that the Savior of the Broken isn't perfect but still deserves her trust.

EDIT: Also, I wonder if Taylor was hanging around the Cradle under her Cloak when Saki popped in.
 
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Actually, I'm almost wondering if Taylor is just hanging out with Cauldron and is gonna be like "And then there's these assholes. Meet the unethical-but-vaguely-benevolent-conspiracy that may or may not run the world, Saki! They're a thing. Prayer already punched them in the face. Repeatedly. It builds character."
 
EDIT: As for SoPA repeater, he presumably needs to be in Taylors SoPA range to expand it? I can't recall, but I would assume so anyway or Taylor would have known where he was all the time, since she would have sensed the insects.
No he doesn't; this was established as far back as the Behemoth battle.
And yes, Taylor does sense the insects, and control them; it was how she told Iris about the location of the Cradle while being several miles away fighting Behemoth.
Also, insects won't really help against Behemoth.
Tunnel-Fighting Tactical Omnibus gives +1 Might.
You'd be surprised at what that means, especially when the other supernatural characters in the mass combat unit are an E10 3CD and an E4 Alchemical. And it's not like insects are the only thing available to the Administrator anymore.

Besides, you underestimate bugs; she used them against Crawler in canon. And Echidna.
And Leviathan.
 
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Actually, I'm almost wondering if Taylor is just hanging out with Cauldron and is gonna be like "And then there's these assholes. Meet the unethical-but-vaguely-benevolent-conspiracy that may or may not run the world, Saki! They're a thing. Prayer already punched them in the face. Repeatedly. It builds character."
Hmm. Yeah, I can see the thought process.

[Saki anger-bamfs to Safe Space instead of having pizza]
Taylor: "Ohhhh crap. She's taking this a lot harder than I thought. Hope she doesn't think I was trying to keep it a secret. Maybe I should just tell her ALL the things to show her I'm not? But how would I even get to her?"
Cauldron: "Hi."
Taylor: "Ugh. FIIIIINE."
 
All I will say about any of this is that I had been fully expecting Saki's reaction to the Bonesaw revelation, and that I don't find this all that bad to be honest.
If Saki wants to use her charms on Bonesaw to both get revenge and to make Bonesaw less of a murder surgeon, by all means, let her do it.

Edit: Although, from what I understand, Iris' link to AOE doesn't pierce dimensions, so shouldn't us being in a different Cauldron dimension mess with his charging?

Edit2: I will find it funny when/if it is revealed to Saki that Iris doesn't care for all the misery that Bonesaw caused, he is mainly annoyed at the blasphemy they used him to taint the Great Maker and how inefficient her science was.
 
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All I will say about any of this is that I had been fully expecting Saki's reaction to the Bonesaw revelation, and that I don't find this all that bad to be honest.
If Saki wants to use her charms on Bonesaw to both get revenge and to make Bonesaw less of a murder surgeon, by all means, let her do it.

Edit: Although, from what I understand, Iris' link to AOE doesn't pierce dimensions, so shouldn't us being in a different Cauldron dimension mess with his charging?
Have we discussed Saki implanting the memories, emotions, and feelings she had under the Nine's control into Riley's head via POS so she can experience the pain she caused? And then purging herself of them afterward? Because I see that surging to the top of her options now.

EDIT: Posted more as a worry and not a suggestion. Was about to delete the post, but thought clarifying my intent would serve better.
 
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Have we discussed Saki implanting the memories, emotions, and feelings she had under the Nine's control into Riley's head via POS so she can experience the pain she caused? And then purging herself of them afterward? Because I see that surging to the top of her options now.
No. Because that's evil.
The goal is rehabilitation, not revenge torture or trauma.
 
No. Because that's evil.
The goal is rehabilitation, not revenge torture or trauma.
Actually, that very thing could be an incredible boon to helping Riley regaining empathy. Not because it's her getting the memories of a torture victims but because it is the memories of someone who she tortured. It gives her a very stark comparison from both sides of the fence.

I'm not suggesting that Saki go around and gather up all of the memories of every survivor and dump them into her head. That would actually be torture. But giving her perspective is very important for empathy.
 
Actually, that very thing could be an incredible boon to helping Riley regaining empathy. Not because it's her getting the memories of a torture victims but because it is the memories of someone who she tortured. It gives her a very stark comparison from both sides of the fence.

I'm not suggesting that Saki go around and gather up all of the memories of every survivor and dump them into her head. That would actually be torture. But giving her perspective is very important for empathy.
Using it to raise Compassion might help, without having to torture her in the process.
 
Having someone annoyed brandish them in private does not imply threat; it looks more like venting to me, especially since we already voted restraint for Saki in charm use.
I'd be honestly more worried if she kept them folded; that would be implying things like Repartee Baffles.
Even using Unobtrusive Repartee Baffles, the claws and spike are visible weapons. They don't radiate magic, and it isn't obvious that charm fuckery is going on when they're actually used on a victim, since that's what's URB hides, but the weapon parts of the charms themselves are still extended and on display.

Now, if you want to hide the weapon(s), that's certainly possible! It'd be a separate "Slight of Hand" check that would fall under Stealth/Larceny, and opposed by Awareness/Investigation, but it'd be possible to pull off thanks to URB hiding all the blatant Bullshit Magic warning signs.
BB is empty, so no collateral damage to worry about, and it's probably the most Essence-rich area in the Nowhereverse, so it's home ground.
Any parahuman who is imbecilic enough to attempt kidnapping him is likely to get the Lot's wife/ Manosque Viridian treatment.
After he leaves a few pillars of salt lying around, other people will take the hint.
For a moment I forgot who Manosque Viridian was. Then I remembered that he was a Dragonblooded that used Iris to shut down every manse in the Realm at once, but then had his entire army fall into the sky because Iris got fed up with him. (An amusing note is that the official Realm calendar says that Viridian's forces were thwarted by the Realm's armies, of course.)

Iris was fine with a bit of a walkabout before, since he needed to get out and see the land, he trusted Taylor to track him down, and he didn't feel like wiping out the surrounding countryside and its heroes/inhabitants just to defend himself.

He is no longer fine with such distractions or delays.
faster if she climbs to angels eighty and redlines it.
I'm guessing this is some kind of aeronautical reference? 80,000 feet? Pointing 80 degrees up instead of a more gradual 45-degree climb?
And I just remembered that Iris acts as a repeater for SoPA.
So Iris is never alone or unguarded as long as there are invertebrates/animals/SOPA drones in his general area.
As long as Taylor never runs out of both essence and willpower while he's outside of her SoPA radius, sure.
@Gromweld, are you willing to comment on how much power Iris is getting now, and does he need to be in SoPA range (or did E4 somehow change that rule?).
He would be getting more power due to Essence 4, yes, but that boost is impacted by SoPA's need to spend essence to repair itself. It's a net loss at the moment for him, hence his comment about reduced essence respiration.
I'm suddenly reminded of that DaVinci's Notebook song.
Link?


Alright, getting to work on Character Sheet updates. I'll post when I'm done.
 
You act like Saki is on board already on the "Let's rehab Bonesaw" train, which is false.
You don't have to want to help someone to be against torturing them.
Holy shit man.

Actually, that very thing could be an incredible boon to helping Riley regaining empathy.
A remarkably intimate thing, to share your memories with someone else.

Also unnecessary; the very first thing Taylor did with Riley was to leave her with a room full of people in pain at the same time while her own pain negators were off. And Taylor has been intimately involved with rehabbing her over the last week, bringing her full Int+Medicine and Cha/Man + Presence rolls to bear while using SPU to aid a bunch of trained child psychologists.

And if you have POS, and the willingness to use it, why would you do Memory Implantation in the first place when you can literally block off every memory from her time with the Nine and only gradually reintroduce them as the psychologists choose?Or literally delete Intimacies with Rogue Cell and a good argument?

Doesn't even affect her Ability scores, so she remains an effective Tinker.
Why go the less efficient route?
I'm guessing this is some kind of aeronautical reference? 80,000 feet? Pointing 80 degrees up instead of a more gradual 45-degree climb?
Eighty thousand feet, yes.
It's easier for planes to fly fast at altitude than at sea level(less drag), so I suspect that even for a suit of power armor, it will be more efficient to climb to altitude and then crank on the gas for distance flights.

Besides, it gets her out of the flight band of commercial (~30,000) and most military(<60,000) planes, especially since she doesn't need to breathe in Alchemical form.
 
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I am aware. Good thing I was not advocating what you think I was, isn't it?
Then what was the point of your comment?
I'm honestly curious.

Saki does not need to be involved for Riley's rehabilitation to proceed apace; she hasn't been involved for the last week.
If she isn't involved, Taylor + SPU + IEU is quite literally enough to throw bucketloads of dice at the problem as long as she stays involved.

Saki makes things much faster and easier, but it isn't like it was particularly difficult once we got the PRT to leave an impressionable 11 year old with Taylor and a 3CD for a week after murderizing her previous authority figure.
 
Looking at the first page more closely, it seems that the familiar bond only breaks when Taylor runs out of power So long as Taylor has motes, Iris can apparenly draw power from anywhere. I remembered that wrong.

@Gromweld, how effective would Iris be against an endbringer as he is now? Or more constructive uses (terraforming BB to not be a hellhole for example). Lets assume SoPA has had time to repair.


Also:
Enduring Order Administrator (Blinded By The Big Picture) [Emotion|Frustration] ●○○
Enduring Order Administrator (Savior Of The Broken) [Servitude] ●●○

I think the "savior" had 3 dots before? Or did it?

Also, we could buy for Saki:
*Reputation (Impossible Beauty) ●●●●●

Oh, and Iris got a new rep too:
Reputation (The 4th Endbringer) ●●○○○
:)
 
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