Alchemical Solutions [Worm/Exalted] Thread 23: We Wonder Where Who Wanders When Watchers Wane

Pre-Vote Running Tally: Who Are Your Top 3 Choices For Orichalcum?


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Fuck me running.

As someone with a grasp of Exalted's mechanics, but who hasn't read beyond the Core Rulebook and some of the splatbooks, how does that translate on Exalted's scale of power? 'Cause that sounds stupid huge.

Gromweld is using these revised rules: Cheer Up: Be the Brick, Throw the Brick, Eat the Brick

So basically? Alexandria could lift 235,000 tons.

Ultimately though, not sure its massively impressive thing. I mean we benefit from that strength indirectly whether Alexandria was exalted or not, so long as we don't make an enemy of Cauldron. Its also obviously not sufficient to take out the threats that really matter. The entity bane effect of the suit Iris made will do more to hurt both Scion and Endbringers than Alexandrias 100 strength would.

At some point, you get to the point where it stops being a question of "will more strength help"? 100L or 1000L? If you can inflict 100L, you can almost certainly instantly kill anyone. So doing 1000L does not really change the end result that much. The ones you can't instagib with 100L almost certainly use some bullshit like the absurd durability of endbringers or exalted Perfect Defense, which would counter the 1000L aswell.

Our worst enemies (Endbringers, Entities, Scion, Autos sickness, converting the planet to Essence, Summoning Auto, uniting the cultures, etc) will not be defeated by brute force, and the enemies that can be so defeated, can be taken down by Prayers doom-combo easily enough already.
 
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Huh. It's wierd, looking at that scale i sort of expected the feats to scale up slightly faster. 10 strength and 10 Athletics really isn't much, in the grand scheme of things.
 
Fuck me running.

As someone with a grasp of Exalted's mechanics, but who hasn't read beyond the Core Rulebook and some of the splatbooks, how does that translate on Exalted's scale of power? 'Cause that sounds stupid huge.
She's almost an order of magnitude stronger than the Unconquered Sun in base traits.
 
Huh. It's wierd, looking at that scale i sort of expected the feats to scale up slightly faster. 10 strength and 10 Athletics really isn't much, in the grand scheme of things.

Most exalted bullshit is done by charms really. As an example, Essence 2 solar charm "Knockout Blow". If you do even 1 level of damage, and if your essence+successes is greater than the targets remaining health, he is knocked out, no matter how big and strong. When a Solar wants to jump over a mountain, he does not use strength. He uses Mountain-Crossing Leap Technique to jump Essence*Miles. Etc.

100 is damn impressive to be sure, but if I wanted to argue for Alexandria, strength would be the least important factor (most important being her thinker abilities, and medium important being her durability).

Her connections are potentially more a liability than a benefit perhaps, since they might lead her going rogue without a lot of prepwork (if she is exalted, she could easily argue that as an older leader of multiple conspiracies, she knows far better than Taylor), and would screw us over badly if Cauldron is ever exposed or if Alexandria is revealed as the leader of PRT. Especially since the ones really in charge (Doctor Mother and Contessa) would almost certainly view her as "compromised", and possibly even feed her false information or somesuch.
 
Especially since the ones really in charge (Doctor Mother and Contessa) would almost certainly view her as "compromised", and possibly even feed her false information or somesuch.

Wait, DM (and Tessa presumably?) were the ones who wanted us to exalt Alex to begin with! So presumably that isn't their plan. Otherwise it'd probably be kind of ridiculous.
 
Especially since the ones really in charge (Doctor Mother and Contessa) would almost certainly view her as "compromised", and possibly even feed her false information or somesuch.

Given that probable Ori!Alexandria would probably have all the Perception to get most out of her perfect memory and thinker skills, and would bullshit through Thinker bullshit, good luck to them with that.

This is a problem with her though: what would be her role?
 
This is a problem with her though: what would be her role?
Kicking ass and kicking politics, most likely. For all that people not unreasonably dislike them, Cauldron is trying to help. (halping, perhaps?) Having Alex and by extension them intertwined with us would definitely allow us to call on their resources more.

And apparently having multiple combatants in an Assembly is not uncommon, though I suppose it depends on how punchy Who and our Jade end up being.

Anyways, if we compare her role to Accord, re the Ori caste:

Accord: Planning, politics? He doesn't have much backing to his name, but his thinker ability would totally be useful.. but it'd also be something we could call upon with the help of ensouling him as well. Autobot gets his shard, but I'm not sure what autobot would do with it.

Alex: Ass-kicking, politics. Again, more backing, but that backing might be a liability, especially with her ego. On the other hand, religious experience, and Weaver is an Administrator, might tone down that ego a bit. Work on that Temperance, girl. :V Autobot gets her shard, which could go in interesting directions, as if we assume that Manton made it well, it's already a well-built tool instead of the broken tool that Marrow's shard is. or maybe he'll just throw some charms on and call it a day. Also, eden screaming from beyond the grave sounds fun. and by fun I mean horrifying but probably entertaining/interesting from a Doylist perspective.
 
Kicking ass and kicking politics, most likely. For all that people not unreasonably dislike them, Cauldron is trying to help. (halping, perhaps?) Having Alex and by extension them intertwined with us would definitely allow us to call on their resources more.

And apparently having multiple combatants in an Assembly is not uncommon, though I suppose it depends on how punchy Who and our Jade end up being.

Anyways, if we compare her role to Accord, re the Ori caste:

Accord: Planning, politics? He doesn't have much backing to his name, but his thinker ability would totally be useful.. but it'd also be something we could call upon with the help of ensouling him as well. Autobot gets his shard, but I'm not sure what autobot would do with it.

Alex: Ass-kicking, politics. Again, more backing, but that backing might be a liability, especially with her ego. On the other hand, religious experience, and Weaver is an Administrator, might tone down that ego a bit. Work on that Temperance, girl. :V Autobot gets her shard, which could go in interesting directions, as if we assume that Manton made it well, it's already a well-built tool instead of the broken tool that Marrow's shard is. or maybe he'll just throw some charms on and call it a day. Also, eden screaming from beyond the grave sounds fun. and by fun I mean horrifying but probably entertaining/interesting from a Doylist perspective.

Fair enough. Still think that conflict of interests will be really dangerous with her, and that her Shard might be more useful as not-Shard-Charm because it is OP as is.

Other Ori option is Chevalier:
  • less OP shard, but interesting Thinker side-ability;
  • absolutely, 100% perfect mindset;
  • has decent grasp on politics, being inspiring, asskicking and being awesome even before Exaltation;
  • less conspiracies so less *conflict of interests intensifies* moments;
  • everybody loves him so it would be great PR move after exalting yet another kid in Aisha.

While Ori is basically Accord Caste, I think Ori!Chevalier will be best no-risk decent-to-high reward choice, if he accepts. Accord and Alex might have higher reward, but both have tons of different risks attached.
 
The alternative is to let everyone know that the US government is willing to give up territory and citizenry to violent criminals.

They already were willing to give up territory and citizenry to violent criminals. That's why Brockton was as bad as it was. Between Lung and literal fucking Nazis, a significant portion, if not the majority, of the city was under gang control. Yes, budgeting money and capes to fix the problem in that shithole might not have been feasible, but let's not kid ourselves. The status quo before the Undersiders rose to power did not have the PRT in an active war with the gangs, and the national PRT was willing to live with Nazis and the ABB owning territory. Taking Taylor's deal would at worst be admitting something that's already happening and ceasing escalation in a city that cannot afford it. Also, not only would the Undersiders' modus operandi be a drastic improvement, but they would also actively destroy villains who don't play by the rules, which they have repeatedly demonstrated themselves capable of. Hell, even if the proffered deal was beyond comprehension, Alexandria's response was still badly thought out in light of all the evidence she had available. She did not exercise caution in a time when it would cost her at most a hit to her ego, and she died for it.
 
I like the idea, but what makes Chevalier an Ori, again? As you said, Ori is basically accord caste, after all. Chevalier strikes me as more Jade at first glance.

His canon feat of holding Protectorate together and inspiring heroes to not give up despite uncovered conspiracy. Also, he is very inspiring leader without any help from Shard whatsoever.
He is more Jade-y, perhaps, but he fits Ori well enough, especially if Taylor+Twins work on getting him into "big plans" mindset before.

Like, to quote some random wiki on the Internet:
All Alchemicals are Attribute-based Exalts, and the Orichalcum Caste Attributes are Strength, Charisma, and Intelligence. Through raw force, whether force of mind, body, or spirit, the Orichalcum Caste paves the way for the rest of Autochthonia, broadcasting a message of possibility and hope to the people. It is through their triumphs that the Populat vicariously excels.

An Orichalcum Caste who focuses on an area excels in that area through sheer, overwhelming force. A militant Orichalcum will smite his foes with genius tactics and radiant displays of might. A political Orichalcum will awe and dazzle his opponents with insight and rousing speech. An intellectual Orichalcum will overcome obstacles and impossibilities with solutions too brilliant to have been conceived by lesser minds.

This is not as fitting as Accord, but his canon "Inspiring speeches before each Endbringer fight which actually inspire" and "CHEVALIER SMASH WITH BIG FUCKING SWORD" moments are quite applicable.
 
That doesn't negate the charge of Hubris you know. Canon Alexandria implemented her plan rather stupidly and died a scrub's death for it.
Alexandria's plan failed because she lacked information she had no means of possessing. Taylor attacking Alexandria wasn't a sign the plan failed, that was the entire reason Alexandria was there at all. She was trying to provoke Taylor so that she and Tagg could suspend her legal rights and treat her as a hostile enemy. The plan failed because of three things:

1. Taylor had been sneaking more and more bugs into the interrogation room without anyone knowing. This gave her the means to hamper and incapacitate Tagg.

2. Alexandria couldn't accurately read Taylor's emotions. She had no idea how close to the breaking point Taylor was, so she kept applying pressure and wasn't properly prepared when the attack came.

3. Alexandria had no idea that Taylor's power would keep functioning even when she was unconscious and her swarm would follow the last orders given to it. The majority of masters lose control over their subjects when they're similarly incapacitated.

Had Alexandria known these things, the plan would have worked perfectly. Taylor would either attack and been promptly stopped before anything serious could've happened, or Alexandria would've seen how distraught Taylor was and considered applying a figurative "out" for her to save her friends. If every scrap of information Alexandria has tells her her plan will work and she can handle the consequences, it is not hubris for her to think she has the situation under control. Getting caught by a complete unknown factor is not a mark of hubris.
They already were willing to give up territory and citizenry to violent criminals. That's why Brockton was as bad as it was. Between Lung and literal fucking Nazis, a significant portion, if not the majority, of the city was under gang control.
This is a gross misunderstanding of the situation in Brockton Bay. The pre-Leviathan gangs did not have control over most of the city, nor did they have complete control over the areas they held. They operated similarly to real-life criminal gangs. Look at New York or Los Angeles, being in gang territory there doesn't mean the gangs keep the cops out, or prevent the city, state, or federal government from exerting control. They don't even completely control the non-gang citizens living there. The areas the Undersiders controlled during Taylor's surrender did do those things. That's the issue here.
The status quo before the Undersiders rose to power did not have the PRT in an active war with the gangs, and the national PRT was willing to live with Nazis and the ABB owning territory.
In the opening story arc of Worm, the leader of the Protectorate openly travels through ABB territory and arrests the gang's leader. When said leader escapes custody and his gang starts actively attacking the city and trying to rule over the people in its territory, another arc is dedicated to the Protectorate's and the other villains' efforts to take the ABB down. The idea that Brockton Bay was held under the thrall of the gangs and that the Protectorate was powerless to doing anything about it, or even happy to let the situation continue, is fanon garbage perpetuated endlessly by people unwilling to actually read the story.
 
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In the opening story arc of Worm, the leader of the Protectorate openly travels through ABB territory and arrests the gang's leader. When said leader escapes custody and his gang starts actively attacking the city and trying to rule over the people in its territory, another arc is dedicated to the Protectorate's and the other villains' efforts to taking the ABB down. The idea that Brockton Bay was held under the thrall of the gangs and that the Protectorate was powerless to doing anything about it, or even happy to let the situation continue, is fanon garbage perpetuated endlessly by people unwilling to actually read the story.
Quite.

Canon Brockton Bay was a minefield that the PRT felt they had to navigate very carefully for fear of ending up in the ABB's situation; that is, ganged up on and potentially overwhelmed. Nevertheless they were navigating that minefield, and were broadly speaking in control.
 
2. Alexandria couldn't accurately read Taylor's emotions. She had no idea how close to the breaking point Taylor was, so she kept applying pressure and wasn't properly prepared when the attack came.
This does nothing to counter what I said.

3. Alexandria had no idea that Taylor's power would keep functioning even when she was unconscious and her swarm would follow the last orders given to it. The majority of masters lose control over their subjects when they're similarly incapacitated.
Another bout of what turned out to be fatally stupid assumptions. Majority can mean just 51 percent, which also means that a significant portion doesn't fit under that observation.
 
His canon feat of holding Protectorate together and inspiring heroes to not give up despite uncovered conspiracy. Also, he is very inspiring leader without any help from Shard whatsoever.
He is more Jade-y, perhaps, but he fits Ori well enough, especially if Taylor+Twins work on getting him into "big plans" mindset before.

Like, to quote some random wiki on the Internet:


This is not as fitting as Accord, but his canon "Inspiring speeches before each Endbringer fight which actually inspire" and "CHEVALIER SMASH WITH BIG FUCKING SWORD" moments are quite applicable.
Just to ask, I remember Autochiton telling us to chose 'broken' people. Howbis Chevy broken?

Somehow that's been lost in the mix.
 
You could argue that any non-Cauldron parahuman has been broken in some way, since, y'know, trigger events.

If you wanted to. Which you might, I dunno. :V
 
Just to ask, I remember Autochiton telling us to chose 'broken' people. Howbis Chevy broken?

Somehow that's been lost in the mix.

If he has a natural superpower, he is by definition broken. This is one of the reasons Worm is so grimderp, after all: superpowers go to the broken people.
Chevalier has managed to grow into seemingly psychologically healthy, sane and stable individual despite it, just as Miss Militia.
This is probably why they both are my favorite Assembly candidates: they have proven beyond any doubt that they are able to be sane, stable and fundamentally good people despite all the shit Earth Bet has been throwing into them for decades.
This is important, if not the most important, characteristic for an individual with cosmic powers who may be getting even more cosmic powers, IMO.

EDIT: Who'd.
 
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This does nothing to counter what I said.
Pretty clearly does, actually.
It's not hubris when you really are that good.
Alexandria was specifically called in by the local PRT/Protectorate officers because she had a history of being good at precisely this sort of high-stakes negotiation. People remember the flying tank part of her powers and forget the enhanced intelligence and perception part of it.

Which is just the way she likes it, with people underestimating her.

Do you think just anyone could have talked the majority of the capes at Echidna into keeping their mouths shut in front of the press?
Cauldron killing leakers would not have worked if everyone had said fuckit and talked at the same time.

Legend may do good Charisma social influence, but Rebecca's Manipulation is wicked.
I've always thought of the whole 'broken' thing to be just another way of saying they are Heroic in the Ancient Greek way.
You could argue that any non-Cauldron parahuman has been broken in some way, since, y'know, trigger events.
If you wanted to. Which you might, I dunno. :V
Thing about parahumans is that trigger events provide a convenient sorting process for that sort of thing.
You tend to want to go much deeper with normal humans.
 
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I've always thought of the whole 'broken' thing to be just another way of saying they are Heroic in the Ancient Greek way.

Solars work that way but Alchemicals are the exception. They are more national heros ala the "Socialist Realism" of the USSR, filtered through the lense of Glorious Robot Communism instead of lense of Lennin's ideals.
 
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This does nothing to counter what I said.
I'm trying to counter your assertion that Alexandria's failings are due to hubris. Hubris requires you to be so foolishly confident or reckless that you ignore obvious warning signs that would prevent your downfall. Insulting the gods when you know they're prideful and vengeful. Attacking the monster head on when numerous people have told you that it's suicidal to do so. Dismissing a soothsayer's vision of your impending death. There has to be something for you to ignore or dismiss for your actions to be described as hubris. Alexandria was working with the information she had at her disposal. If you think she would have continued just the same had she known the three points I posted earlier, then she would have been guilty of hubris. Getting tricked or surprised by something you couldn't have seen coming isn't hubris. Alexandria does have her failings, but that isn't one of them.
 
I'm trying to counter your assertion that Alexandria's failings are due to hubris. Hubris requires you to be so foolishly confident or reckless that you ignore obvious warning signs that would prevent your downfall. Insulting the gods when you know they're prideful and vengeful. Attacking the monster head on when numerous people have told you that it's suicidal to do so. Dismissing a soothsayer's vision of your impending death. There has to be something for you to ignore or dismiss for your actions to be described as hubris. Alexandria was working with the information she had at her disposal. If you think she would have continued just the same had she known the three points I posted earlier, then she would have been guilty of hubris. Getting tricked or surprised by something you couldn't have seen coming isn't hubris. Alexandria does have her failings, but that isn't one of them.
Thief of Words and others have already posted examples of how Alexandria ignored past warning signs. I do consider that Hubris. I'm going to move on though, since I have little to no desire to debate both your's and uju's opinions at the same time.
 
As someone with a grasp of Exalted's mechanics, but who hasn't read beyond the Core Rulebook and some of the splatbooks, how does that translate on Exalted's scale of power? 'Cause that sounds stupid huge.
Yes, but strength is honestly one of the less useful attributes. It goes to damage rolls, and feats of strength, and that's about it.
So Alexandria's a little more than three times as swole as the buffest Solaroid ever. And rolls at least a hundred damage dice when punching something.

Sure it's not really anything to Exalted hax, but that's really fucking scary base stats.
Well, kinda, but not really. It doesn't make her that much better in a fight, because strength 100 is just as easy to parry or dodge as strength 2. She has to hit you less, but has just as much trouble hitting you as someone without her strength. So in the end, not that impressive.
If you can inflict 100L, you can almost certainly instantly kill anyone.
Anyone without charms, and that isn't behemoth(the Exalted sort) tier durable. That should be a caveat here. You can easily survive 100L without perfects with certain soak and damage mitigation builds. You can even survive it repeatedly in the same fight. Besides, that's dice, so it's only 40ish levels on average pre-soak, and that ratio is preserved post-soak.
As you said, Ori is basically accord caste, after all.
Okay, this pisses me off. That is way to narrow a view of the Orichalcum caste. It can be lots of things other than a master planner, and honestly it probably does best as a frontline caste. Because than your anima actually gets some use. They make strong fighters, and strong priest types if you want to go there, they are the prototypes for Solars. People need to look beyond the one narrow use of Ori's for massive INT stuff, because then yo miss most of the value of the caste.
 
Okay, this pisses me off. That is way to narrow a view of the Orichalcum caste. It can be lots of things other than a master planner, and honestly it probably does best as a frontline caste. Because than your anima actually gets some use. They make strong fighters, and strong priest types if you want to go there, they are the prototypes for Solars. People need to look beyond the one narrow use of Ori's for massive INT stuff, because then yo miss most of the value of the caste.
To be fair, I'm not personally too wedded to that idea, but it's become something of a meme at this point. It's just easier to go along with it rather than to say 'no that's wrong go away' :V
 
To be fair, I'm not personally too wedded to that idea, but it's become something of a meme at this point. It's just easier to go along with it rather than to say 'no that's wrong go away' :V


Honestly, the more I think, the more I like Chevalier: he is inspiring leader - one of the most inspiring ones in Worm, IIRC - without shard cheats, he is of healthy mindset, he is able to lead from the frontline, smart (his power relies on him being able to use proper tools for the job) and perceptive, one of the more experienced capes around who've seen some shit and still remained bro...yeah, if he agrees, he'll be about perfect "inspiring leader who also kicks all the ass" type of Ori.
 
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